Pandemic started in a lab:

[probinson]

When I've seen Fauci talk, he doesn't typically speak in terms of certainty. He almost always talks about probabilities and likelihoods etc.

And then he would advise imposed mandates based on his musings.

Fauci had an official capacity on the task force. He was getting all sorts of information from all sorts of sources.. It was his job to verify information and to present it to the task force and to us, when he had done his initial levels of due diligence.

This literally made me laugh out loud.

It wasn't his duty to simply pass on rumours.

No, but it apparently was his duty to tell noble lies and undermine the trust of public health agencies, which is now at historic lows in no small part due to Fauci's constant flip-flopping.

Anyone can spread rumours.

Right. Anyone can tell noble lies also. Fauci got really good at it throughout the pandemic.

Fauci isn't just anyone. he is a highly skilled, highly experienced scientist and he was employed into his position for his skills not for an ability to spread gossip.

This is nothing more than Fauci hero-worship.

And it's stretching credibility (to say the least) to call the assessment of "highly qualified evolutionary virologists" (to quote Fauci) "gossip" or a "rumor".

 

[essentialsaltes]

And if you pull at that thread, you may possibly

Why all the indirectness and conspiracy and skullduggery?

Can't we just ask Fauci or whoever you want to hale before the subcommittee, "Did we fund the creation of the COVID-19 virus that then escaped the lab?"

That question has the potential to answer the question of the origin of the pandemic. None of your other ones did.

 

[probinson]

Not really. It could have been either party that went the partisan route to embrace anti-government contrarianism, but it was the GOP what did.

It's disturbing to me that you think that what happened can be correctly classified as "anti-government contrarianism".

In any event, both parties have politicized COVID to the point that it's near impossible to have an objective discussion about it any longer.

How many were tested?

Let's back up and try to understand this "logic"....

Way back at the beginning of the pandemic, there were all sorts of musings about how SARS-CoV-2 was from zoonotic origins. There were a number of animal hosts posited as potential origins, and the raccoon dog was one of them. More than three years go by and no one even mentions a raccoon dog, until The Atlantic decides to publish an article suggesting the raccoon dog is to blame (at the same time evidence is emerging that points to a potential lab-leak). Yet no one even bothered to test any raccoon dogs in the wild to see if any were infected? And that's why we haven't found a single natural raccoon dog infected with SARS-CoV-2?

Then why did The Atlantic (and others who piled on) irresponsibly suggest that the virus' origins were from a raccoon dog? What evidence base is there to make such a claim?

FTR, here is what a German study of raccoon dogs found.

From the present study, no concrete evidence of SARS-CoV-2 circulation in the German population of raccoons and raccoon dogs can be deduced, not even their susceptibility to the virus. All samples examined are negative both molecularly and serologically.​

​

SARS-CoV-2 and West Nile Virus Prevalence Studies in Raccoons and Raccoon Dogs from Germany

Unlike farm animals, wild animals are not subject to continuous health surveillance. Individual projects designed to screen wildlife populations for specific pathogens are, therefore, also of great importance for human health. In this context, the possible formation of a reservoir for highly...

www.mdpi.com

​

 

[probinson]

Can't we just ask Fauci or whoever you want to hale before the subcommittee, "Did we fund the creation of the COVID-19 virus that then escaped the lab?"

Sure. Because Fauci will be totally, completely honest about that. No doubt. Fauci will no doubt be happy to admit that the NIH funded the creation of SARS-CoV-2 even in the midst of a pause on GoF funding. I'm sure it would go something like this;

Fauci: Yeah, we funded the research that created the virus that caused the worst pandemic in over a century. And yeah, the protocols at the lab were pretty shoddy, which is why the virus got out into the public. But you know, live and learn.​

Narrator: And so, Fauci, having learned a valuable lesson indeed, would go on to spend the rest of his life ensuring that other scientists didn't make the same mistakes he did, and the world would be a safer place because of it.​

​

* SCENE *​

 

[essentialsaltes]

Sure. Because Fauci will be totally, completely honest about that. No doubt.

Well, why do you want to ask him all these other questions, if there's no point? He's not dumb. He knows you are on to him!

Congressional oversight and/or the intelligence documents that will now be made public would reveal if we ourselves were responsible.

 

[probinson]

Well, why do you want to ask him all these other questions, if there's no point? He's not dumb. He knows you are on to him!

Deposing witnesses is only one step of an investigation. Surely you must know that. If what the witnesses state is inconsistent with what evidence shows, then that's a problem, right?

For example, if one person says that the Proximal Origins paper was an "objective" analysis while evidence emerges that shows the primary author of the paper states that its purpose was to "disprove" the lab-leak theory, that's a contradiction, isn't it? Who asked Dr. Andersen to write the paper to "disprove" the theory? Is that what Fauci "prompted" Dr. Andersen to do? Are you even moderately curious as to why there are all these contradictions?

I suspect Fauci would suddenly become very forgetful, like he did in his last deposition where he stated "I don't recall" 174 times over the 400-page trasnscript. That guy has some serious memory problems, particularly when it comes to his own accountability!

 

[stevil]

And it's stretching credibility (to say the least) to call the assessment of "highly qualified evolutionary virologists" (to quote Fauci) "gossip" or a "rumor".

It is very lucky that Fauci didn't over react to the initial report of the virologist. Fauci kept a cool head and told them they needed to do more investigation. Once they investigated further, they then found evidence which led them to retract their initial findings.

It's just unfortunate that these email correspondance leaked. Now we have MAGA Trumpists who are cherry picking and ignoring the full story and trying to smear Fauci for doing the job that he was suppossed to do.

 

[stevil]

or did Fauci "prompt" (and what does that mean?) Dr. Andersen and his colleagues to change their mind?

You have not shown any evidence at all of Fauci prompting anyone to change their mind.

 

[stevil]

Wrong.

They didn't do a "retraction". They emailed Fauci privately saying they thought it looked engineered. Their first statement to the public was that it was "conspiracy theory" to think it came from a lab.

Andersen and Holmes have never, despite multiple interviews on the topic, explained 1) what made them and their team think it was engineered/inconsistent with evolutionary theory or 2) what evidence they discovered which changed their mind. Of course, there was only a 72-hour window for that evidence to having been discovered, as within 72 hours of saying "this looks engineered", Andersen said lab leak was "crackpot theory".

Not MAGA, never was. That you cling to false narratives and continue to pretend that Fauci is a man of character and integrity despite a long list of documented lies these last few years tells me all I need to know.

In the email from Anderson to Fauci, Anderson said

Covid Origin: Top Scientists Discussed Lab Origin In Private, But Dismissed It In Public, Show Emails

Top scientists in February 2020 privately concluded that they could neither confirm nor rule out either the lab- or natural-origin of Covid-19 virus, but some of them changed opinion within weeks and published an influential paper establishing natural-origin of the virus, according to emails...

www.outlookindia.com

" I should mention that after discussions earlier today, Eddie, Bob, Mike and myself all find the genome inconsistent with expectations from evolutionary theory. But we have to look at this much more closely and there are still further analyses to be done, so those opinions could still change.”"

It seems very convenient that the MAGA Trumpists (looking to blame Fauci rather than Trump for the mess of what happened in USA) leave out this bit. They make it appear as if Anderson was convinced it was an enginered virus and they make out some kind of strange conspiracy where Fauci is telling them in secret to fabricate a statement that says it was from nature.
This is not the case. These scientists were talking in private about preliminary findings. Once they had done enough investigation then they came out with the report. The emails show proof that these guys could have gone either way, and in fact they did toggle between either determination. In the end, once they had more evidence their determination was that this was not engineered.

 

[stevil]

That's an outright falsehood.

It became a partisan issue when Democrats aligned behind the skewed "Proximal Origins" Lancet article

It became paritsan when Trump and right wing propoganda outlets started peddling the message that it was a lab leak without any supporting evidence whatsoever and in contradiction to what the task force and the scientific community were saying.

If the Democratic party were following the evidence and the scientists that cannot be deemed a partisan politic approach. It can only be deemed as normal and scientific.

 

[stevil]

No, but it apparently was his duty to tell noble lies and undermine the trust of public health agencies, which is now at historic lows in no small part due to Fauci's constant flip-flopping.

The main reason why in USA you have low trust (especially on the right) in public health agencies and intelligence agencies and in the election process is because you have MAGA republicans working very hard to undermine all of these.

Somehow the Republican party have become a party of petty gripes, of anti-establishment, of wild conspiracies. A party that appeals more to outlandish unsupported beliefs than to facts, a party that is willing to destroy the nation in order to somehow gain control.

They have got that way because a substantial number of the base don't seem to want to hear facts. They just want to "own the libs" at all costs.
Fox News declares Arizona correctly and then the MAGA Trumpists abandon Fox News and go to other channels that say Trump still has a chance in the election. Fox News trying to win them back by promoting the stolen election lies and now they are in intense legal and financial jeopardy.

The problem isn't Fauci or WHO or CDC or FBI, or CIA or DOJ, or the election process
The problem is that many people are trying to tear down the system, and the supporters are all on board with that.
They feel that it is rigged against them, and they want to throw it out and take over the narrative and they seem willing to do ANYTHING (including lie, violent insurrection, alternative electors, pressure on election officials to flip the results). They have even turned against Pence merely because he didn't go with the plan to illegally steal the election.
The MAGA Trumpists know all this has been happening and they like it. This is why they still maintain support for D Trump and try very hard to keep undermining the institutions and the experts and officials.

 

[whatbogsends]

It became paritsan when Trump and right wing propoganda outlets started peddling the message that it was a lab leak without any supporting evidence whatsoever and in contradiction to what the task force and the scientific community were saying.

If the Democratic party were following the evidence and the scientists that cannot be deemed a partisan politic approach. It can only be deemed as normal and scientific.

FOIA emails show that those claiming LL was "conspiracy theory" were never "following the science". They were trying to shut down debate and declare zoonotic origin definitive.

There was no "scientific consensus", just a handful of state sponsored scientists who pushed a narrative.

That you ignore the evidence provided and continue to claim it's about Trump shows that you're among those making it political.

 

[stevil]

FOIA emails show that those claiming LL was "conspiracy theory" were never "following the science". They were trying to shut down debate and declare zoonotic origin definitive.

There was no "scientific consensus", just a handful of state sponsored scientists who pushed a narrative.

That you ignore the evidence provided and continue to claim it's about Trump shows that you're among those making it political.

I have no idea how the "we don't know the origins because we don't have any evidence supporting either" stance can be deemed a political stance rather than a truthful one.

At the time, Trump and far right propoganda media were making strong claims that it was engineered and a lab leak. But there was no evidence supporting that claim.
Official people (it's funny that Trump - the president, was working against the official line) were trying to downplay this unsupported claim. I think they were correct to do so. Same thing when Trump was telling people that HCQ and Ivermectin are good treatments, the officials had to downplay the claim. At the time it was unknown whether HCQ was effective and Fauci kept saying that it is under investigation and the results are inconclusive.
Trump had a habit of jumping the gun as well as being contrary to science and the official stance, and his propoganda media outlets just ran with whatever Trump was saying.

 

[probinson]

It is very lucky that Fauci didn't over react to the initial report of the virologist. Fauci kept a cool head and told them they needed to do more investigation. Once they investigated further, they then found evidence which led them to retract their initial findings.

Again, this is completely fabricated. And the evidence suggests otherwise.

It's just unfortunate that these email correspondance leaked.

Yeah. Such a shame that Fauci's prompting to write a paper that would disprove the lab-leak theory was exposed.

Now we have MAGA Trumpists

Oh my. Tell me again how it's the conservatives that are politicizing this discussion.

who are cherry picking and ignoring the full story

The "full story" sounds intriguing. Perhaps you could provide evidence of it.

and trying to smear Fauci for doing the job that he was suppossed to do.

Fauci lied. That's not a "smear". It's the truth. I can show you multiple documented instances of Fauci's noble lies. And in this case, the lies weren't noble. They were seemingly self-serving.

 

[probinson]

You have not shown any evidence at all of Fauci prompting anyone to change their mind.

Yes I have. You've simply ignored it.

 

[probinson]

The main reason why in USA you have low trust (especially on the right) in public health agencies and intelligence agencies and in the election process is because you have MAGA republicans working very hard to undermine all of these.

Here you go politicizing it. AGAIN.

The reason we have very low trust in these agencies is because they've earned it by shunning evidence-based principles.

Somehow the Republican party have become a party of petty gripes, of anti-establishment, of wild conspiracies. A party that appeals more to outlandish unsupported beliefs than to facts, a party that is willing to destroy the nation in order to somehow gain control.

They have got that way because a substantial number of the base don't seem to want to hear facts. They just want to "own the libs" at all costs.
Fox News declares Arizona correctly and then the MAGA Trumpists abandon Fox News and go to other channels that say Trump still has a chance in the election. Fox News trying to win them back by promoting the stolen election lies and now they are in intense legal and financial jeopardy.

The problem isn't Fauci or WHO or CDC or FBI, or CIA or DOJ, or the election process
The problem is that many people are trying to tear down the system, and the supporters are all on board with that.
They feel that it is rigged against them, and they want to throw it out and take over the narrative and they seem willing to do ANYTHING (including lie, violent insurrection, alternative electors, pressure on election officials to flip the results). They have even turned against Pence merely because he didn't go with the plan to illegally steal the election.
The MAGA Trumpists know all this has been happening and they like it. This is why they still maintain support for D Trump and try very hard to keep undermining the institutions and the experts and officials.

This whole bunch of blathering whargarbbl is nothing more than naked politicization so you don't have to address the content of what is being posted. Protip: if you don't want this discussion politicized, stop politicizing it yourself.

 

[stevil]

The reason we have very low trust in these agencies is because they've earned it by shunning evidence-based principles.

This is not true.

It has been shown time and again the right wing points are false and the official positions are true.
e.g. Fox is in serious trouble for promoting nonsense on Dominion Voting machines.
Fox news hosts have been caught in private emails admitting that they didn't believe the stolen election lies.
A Lawyer who was promoting lies on Dominion Voting machines has testified that she was promoting lies

 

[probinson]

I have no idea how the "we don't know the origins because we don't have any evidence supporting either" stance can be deemed a political stance rather than a truthful one.

That's not what the political stance is. But hold on! You're about to politicize the discussion again! Here it comes!

At the time, Trump and far right propoganda media

See! There it is!

were making strong claims that it was engineered and a lab leak. But there was no evidence supporting that claim.

There was just as much evidence that the SARS-CoV-2 originated in a lab as there was that it originated from a bat. But only one viewpoint was allowed to be discussed, despite the fact that both hypotheses were equally plausible.

Official people (it's funny that Trump - the president, was working against the official line) were trying to downplay this unsupported claim. I think they were correct to do so.

They weren't just trying to "downplay" this claim. They actively sought to censor discussion of the claim in violation of the first amendment. And they succeeded. Thankfully, a lawsuit just survived a motion to dismiss and is moving forward against the US government that sought to utilize social media companies and big tech to censor anything that did not fall in line with their preferred propaganda.

 

[stevil]

Yes I have. You've simply ignored it.

You cherry picked content from an email to Fauci and left out the bit where the correspondant said the opinion presented was only preliminary and they are further working on the determination.

At no point did you show Fauci telling them to change their conclusion.

 

[probinson]

This is not true.

It absolutely is true. Here's a great example of the FDA being pressured politically to license vaccines not because it had gone through the proper process, but because it would enable the government to enact vaccine mandates. Two of the top vaccine regulators at the FDA resigned in protest.

Did the FDA rush to license Pfizer's covid vaccine to enable vaccine mandates?

Internal FDA communications suggest it was part of the deliberation

maryannedemasi.substack.com

This isn't exactly the kind of thing that inspires confidence in the regulatory system.

It has been shown time and again the right wing points are false and the official positions are true.

Baloney. From plexiglass barriers, to school closings, to lockdowns, to masking, there are countless "official positions" that were shown to be completely incorrect.

e.g. Fox is in serious trouble for promoting nonsense on Dominion Voting machines.
Fox news hosts have been caught in private emails admitting that they didn't believe the stolen election lies.
A Lawyer who was promoting lies on Dominion Voting machines has testified that she was promoting lies

What does any of this have to do with COVID? Try to stay on topic.