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Pandemic started in a lab:

probinson

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You cherry picked content from an email to Fauci and left out the bit where the correspondant said the opinion presented was only preliminary and they are further working on the determination.

At no point did you show Fauci telling them to change their conclusion.

Yes I did.

Here it is again. This time I'll screenshot it so you can see it clearly.

Screenshot 2023-03-22 at 6.27.54 PM.png


Source: https://oversight.house.gov/wp-cont...SCP-Memo-Re.-New-Evidence.Proximal-Origin.pdf

If they were looking at this "objectively", then why did Dr. Andersen say that they had spent weeks trying to "disprove" the theory? Who told them to spend weeks focused on trying to disprove the lab-leak theory? Doesn't sound very objective to me.
 
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stevil

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Yes I did.

Here it is again. This time I'll screenshot it so you can see it clearly.

View attachment 329302

Source: https://oversight.house.gov/wp-cont...SCP-Memo-Re.-New-Evidence.Proximal-Origin.pdf

If they were looking at this "objectively", then why did Dr. Andersen say that they had spent weeks trying to "disprove" the theory? Who told them to spend weeks focused on trying to disprove the lab-leak theory? Doesn't sound very objective to me.
It does not disprove that Dr Andersen "objectively" weighed all the evidence.
He should be trying to disprove any type of lab theory
AND He should be trying to disprove a natural evolution theory. Or at least someone should.

Logic 101
If person A spent the last couple of weeks trying to disprove the lab leek theory, it doesn't mean that person A hasn't also spent time trying to disprove a natural evolution theory in other weeks. It also doesn't mean that other scientists haven't spent time trying to disprove a natural evolution theory.

The guy looked at information and came to a preliminary conclusion that it was an enginered disease. He then spent a couple of weeks trying to disprove that theory and his final conclusion was that it wasn't an engineered disease.

It looks like to me, that he clearly looked at the problem from both sides.
 
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stevil

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It absolutely is true. Here's a great example of the FDA being pressured politically to license vaccines not because it had gone through the proper process, but because it would enable the government to enact vaccine mandates. Two of the top vaccine regulators at the FDA resigned in protest.

LOL, there was no rush to innact vaccine mandates.
There was however a rush to get vaccines and make them available to the public. If you hadn't noticed, there was a global pandemic going on which was killing millions of people.

Trump inacted operation WarpSpeed, and tried to remove some red tape to speed up the development and release of the vaccines in order to save lives.
 
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probinson

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It does not disprove that Dr Andersen "objectively" weighed all the evidence.
He should be trying to disprove any type of lab theory
AND He should be trying to disprove a natural evolution theory. Or at least someone should.

But he didn't say that. He said specifically in his email to Nature that he had spent weeks trying to disprove the lab-leak theory. He never said he was trying to disprove the zoonotic origin theory.

It looks like to me, that he clearly looked at the problem from both sides.

Based on what? He said he was trying to "disprove" the lab-leak theory. What evidence do you have that he also tried to disprove the zoonotic origin theory?
 
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probinson

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LOL, there was no rush to innact vaccine mandates.

You either have a very short or very bad memory. (Illegal) federal vaccine mandates were enacted just weeks after the FDA gave full approval to the vaccines.

The article that I posted provides evidence that vaccines were licenses to further the end of enacting vaccine mandates, which resulted in the resignation of the top two vaccine regulators at the FDA. This isn't how vaccines are supposed to get full approval, and speaks to a rubber-stamping process which has horribly (and rightfully) eroded trust in the FDA.

Regulatory capture is a very real problem in the US, and it has been since long before COVID. The idea that the FDA is regulating drugs that provide medical benefit to people is a fairy tale. The FDA's primary objective seems to be to approve as many questionable drugs and therapies as they can to enrich pharmaceutical companies, where they will inevitably end up after they leave the agency (see Scott Gottlieb).
 
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probinson

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The guy looked at information and came to a preliminary conclusion that it was an enginered disease. He then spent a couple of weeks trying to disprove that theory and his final conclusion was that it wasn't an engineered disease.

This isn't even an accurate timeline (emphasis added).

On February 1, 2020, Dr. Anthony Fauci, Dr. Francis Collins, and at least eleven other scientists convened a conference call to discuss COVID-19.1 It was on this conference call that Drs. Fauci and Collins were first warned that COVID-19 may have leaked from a lab in Wuhan, China and, further, may have been intentionally genetically manipulated.
Only three days later, on February 4, 2020, four participants of the conference call authored a paper entitled “The Proximal Origin of SARS-CoV-2” (Proximal Origin) and sent a draft to Drs. Fauci and Collins.3 Prior4to final publication in Nature Medicine, the paper was sent to Dr. Fauci for editing and approval.

There wasn't "a couple of weeks" spent doing anything. The paper was authored just three days later. This is further corroborated in the article I posted earlier in the thread.

Andersen would later explain to The New York Times that his initial conclusions were made “in a matter of days, while we worked around the clock” and the subsequent revised position was the result of “more extensive analyses, significant additional data, and thorough investigations to compare genomic diversity more broadly.” Despite this claim, however, “Proximal Origin” was written “in a matter of days,” with a draft complete by Feb. 4 and the paper accepted by Nature Medicine by March 6.

This is what you believe, that "more extensive analyses, significant additional data and through investigations" occurred. But the evidence suggests otherwise (emphasis added)...

Most of the questions surrounding “Proximal Origin” concern a Feb. 1, 2020, teleconference called by Fauci and joined by his boss, NIH then-Director Francis Collins, and other top scientists, including Andersen and a number of his “Proximal Origin” co-authors.
As emails obtained from Freedom of Information requests revealed, Fauci arranged the call just days after receiving an email from Andersen expressing concerns he shared with several other prominent virologists that parts of the virus looked engineered. Andersen wrote that he and a few fellow researchers “all find the [SARS-CoV-2] genome inconsistent with expectations from evolutionary theory.”

If that claim ever reached the public, it might have permanently altered the discourse surrounding the origins of the pandemic. But after the conversation with Fauci, it never did get out. Instead, Andersen, Holmes, and Gary (in addition to Andrew Rambaut) began circulating a draft of “Proximal Origin” three days later, making claims that contradicted the findings Andersen had presented to Fauci in his initial email less than a week prior. In a Feb. 4 email to Peter Daszak, Andersen communicated that he and his co-authors had already begun circulating drafts of a paper proposing the exact opposite—that COVID-19 had emerged naturally—which would become “Proximal Origin.”

So there wasn't "a couple of weeks" of "objective" analysis. No, just THREE DAYS after meeting with Fauci, there was already a draft of Proximal Origin circulating that sought to "disprove" the lab-leak theory. It's astounding that Andersen and his fellow researchers "all [found] the [SARS-CoV2] genome inconsistent with expectations from evolutionary theory", and then just three short days later after meeting with Fauci, they were circulating a draft of paper that said the exact opposite.
 
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essentialsaltes

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What evidence do you have that he also tried to disprove the zoonotic origin theory?

Design proponentists have shown the logical difficulties of trying to disprove a natural hypothesis. It makes sense to focus on the mutually exclusive alternative.
 
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probinson

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Design proponentists have shown the logical difficulties of trying to disprove a natural hypothesis. It makes sense to focus on the mutually exclusive alternative.

So you have no evidence? Just speculation?
 
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probinson

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"No one ever said you wouldn't transmit the virus once you were vaccinated."

Here's another example why trust is so low in the CDC and the FDA. On May 29, 2021, Dr. Rochelle Walensky testified before congress saying, "even if you were to get infected post-vaccination, you can't give it to anyone else." This was a blatant lie. In front of Congress. By the Director of the US CDC.

 
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stevil

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So there wasn't "a couple of weeks" of "objective" analysis. No, just THREE DAYS after meeting with Fauci, there was already a draft of Proximal Origin circulating that sought to "disprove" the lab-leak theory. It's astounding that Andersen and his fellow researchers "all [found] the [SARS-CoV2] genome inconsistent with expectations from evolutionary theory", and then just three short days later after meeting with Fauci, they were circulating a draft of paper that said the exact opposite.
You provided something that had Anderson saying that he spent a couple of weeks looking to disprove the Lab Leak theory.
And you complain about this being unobjective to spend a couple of weeks trying to disprove the Lab Leak theory.

And now you complain to me, saying that they didn't spend two weeks trying to disprove the Lab Leak theory.

What you are saying is all very confusing.

To me, if I were a head scientist and I had some people make a preliminary claim, I might then ask them to seek out the opposite (of course backed by evidence) so that they are exploring both opposing viewpoints.

Then once they have explored both sides and they make a writeup, I would expect that write up to be more robust.

Also, if I were the head scientist and I had some people make a preliminary claim which was not sufficiently explored, I would not be going to the media to spread this stuff.

I cannot see here, anywhere, the conspiracies that you are claiming.
Even if they drafted up the document, who knows what was in the draft? I expect the document changed as evidence was gathered. The final document might have a completely different conclusion to what the early drafts had. Who knows?
 
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stevil

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You either have a very short or very bad memory. (Illegal) federal vaccine mandates were enacted just weeks after the FDA gave full approval to the vaccines.

The article that I posted provides evidence that vaccines were licenses to further the end of enacting vaccine mandates,
Oh boy, utter nonsense

The goal isn't to impose mandates. The goal is to make the vaccines available and save lives.

BUT, once the vaccines are going to be made available then it makes sense for employers to seek to make the workplace safe.
Just because some mandates may have been inacted, it doesn't mean that they were trying really hard to make vaccines available just so that they could implement mandates. That is just nonsense.
 
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stevil

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But he didn't say that. He said specifically in his email to Nature that he had spent weeks trying to disprove the lab-leak theory. He never said he was trying to disprove the zoonotic origin theory.
Oh boy. He sent an email to Fauci saying that his preliminary analysis was that the virus was engineered.
So obviously he had considered that side of the story.
 
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Pommer

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I usually eschew these “where did it START?” threads, (leaving it to more able people of bigger brains than I to parse out; it’s a nice rabbit-warren (I’m sure), and on a topic I think worthy, I’m right in there with yinz!), but I find myself leaning to “natural origins”.

  1. Cover-ups of real actual events are difficult because people are generating data all of the time
  2. This is especially true in medical academia where “the latest knowledge” is what rakes in the bucks
  3. When an disease outbreak occurs, there’s going to be a fair amount of data to sift through to see who knew what, when
  4. Getting rid of data once published is difficult because “it has been published”
  5. Knowing which people and agencies to silence would raise alarms about “who’s suddenly not talking, or changing their minds”
Lab leak is possible but we know that “natural origins” has been the source of outbreaks (since (at least) germ theory was introduced).

My initial thinking was that this was a bio weapon, but “one of ours” that was “planted” into China for propaganda-value by a certain President who assured us that “trade wars are good and easy to win”.

You can see why I have largely chosen to refrain from opining along these lines.
It wasn’t “China incompetence” but “American ingenuity”.
This could explain why This Certain President talked about how good and wonderful the Xi regime had been regarding this terrible scourge that definitely came from China and not even near a lab in the USA or Ukraine.

But then bears of very little brain shouldn’t overtax their resources, eh?
 
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probinson

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You provided something that had Anderson saying that he spent a couple of weeks looking to disprove the Lab Leak theory.

Yes, but as the timeline shows, that's not accurate. There are only 2 potential reasons; he either misspoke, or he's lying.

And you complain about this being unobjective to spend a couple of weeks trying to disprove the Lab Leak theory.

And now you complain to me, saying that they didn't spend two weeks trying to disprove the Lab Leak theory.

What you are saying is all very confusing.

Not at all. It just goes to show that you're not even bothering to look at this stuff for yourselves, or you'd have known that Andersen authored the paper in a mere THREE DAYS, despite saying he took a couple of weeks.

To me, if I were a head scientist and I had some people make a preliminary claim, I might then ask them to seek out the opposite (of course backed by evidence) so that they are exploring both opposing viewpoints.

Then once they have explored both sides and they make a writeup, I would expect that write up to be more robust.

Also, if I were the head scientist and I had some people make a preliminary claim which was not sufficiently explored, I would not be going to the media to spread this stuff.

I cannot see here, anywhere, the conspiracies that you are claiming.
Even if they drafted up the document, who knows what was in the draft? I expect the document changed as evidence was gathered. The final document might have a completely different conclusion to what the early drafts had. Who knows?

So again, all you have is speculation and no hard evidence.
 
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probinson

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Oh boy, utter nonsense

The goal isn't to impose mandates.

Sure it is. Did you read the article? Here's what Marion Gruber, then head of the FDA's Office of Vaccines Research and Review (OVRR), said.

“Our concern is that a review that is hyper-accelerated beyond the already very rapid September 15 target date and as a consequence, may be less thorough than our typical review seems more likely to undermine confidence in the vaccine (and, indeed, in FDA’s credibility) than to increase it.”

Did you read that? The top FDA vaccine regulator at the time said that a "hyper-accelerated" review "may be less thorough" and would "undermine confidence" in the vaccines and "in FDA"s credibility". And she was exactly right.

The goal is to make the vaccines available and save lives.

The vaccines had already been available to everyone for about 6-9 months (depending on your age) at the time they were granted full approval. But they could not be mandated under EUA approval. That required full FDA approval.

And regarding lives saved, we've been told 20 million lives have been saved, an astounding number. Of course that number is based on the nonsensical modeling of the eminently flawed analyses of the Imperial College of London. I've created a graphic that shows just how ludicrous that claim is.

ModelVaccines.png


BUT, once the vaccines are going to be made available then it makes sense for employers to seek to make the workplace safe.

How does a vaccine that doesn't stop disease transmission "make the workplace safe"?

Just because some mandates may have been inacted, it doesn't mean that they were trying really hard to make vaccines available just so that they could implement mandates. That is just nonsense.

Actually, the evidence shows that is exactly what they were trying to do. Their goal was to increase uptake and enact mandates. Gruber and Krause warned them of the detrimental effect such an action would cause to the credibility of the vaccine and the FDA, and she was exactly right.
 
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probinson

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Oh boy. He sent an email to Fauci saying that his preliminary analysis was that the virus was engineered.
So obviously he had considered that side of the story.

He said nothing about his "preliminary analysis". You made that up to make your story sound better. Here's what he actually said.

Andersen wrote that he and a few fellow researchers “all find the [SARS-CoV-2] genome inconsistent with expectations from evolutionary theory.

Nothing about "preliminary analysis". He was pretty matter-of-fact in that statement. Until Fauci scheduled a conference call, and then three days later, Andersen authored a paper that said the exact opposite of what he told Fauci in the email. Those are there facts.
 
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probinson

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whatbogsends

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You provided something that had Anderson saying that he spent a couple of weeks looking to disprove the Lab Leak theory.
And you complain about this being unobjective to spend a couple of weeks trying to disprove the Lab Leak theory.

And now you complain to me, saying that they didn't spend two weeks trying to disprove the Lab Leak theory.

What you are saying is all very confusing.

To me, if I were a head scientist and I had some people make a preliminary claim, I might then ask them to seek out the opposite (of course backed by evidence) so that they are exploring both opposing viewpoints.

Then once they have explored both sides and they make a writeup, I would expect that write up to be more robust.

Also, if I were the head scientist and I had some people make a preliminary claim which was not sufficiently explored, I would not be going to the media to spread this stuff.

I cannot see here, anywhere, the conspiracies that you are claiming.
Even if they drafted up the document, who knows what was in the draft? I expect the document changed as evidence was gathered. The final document might have a completely different conclusion to what the early drafts had. Who knows?

It's not confusing at all.

In 3 days, he changed from "looks engineered" to "lab leak is crackpot theory".

Then, he began work on Proximal Origins, which took weeks. His own description of the work he was doing related to Proximal Origins was "trying to disprove lab leak theory".

It was a biased article starting at a predetermined conclusion.

You continue to fabricate events, while Probinson has provided email evidence of exactly what transpired.
 
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probinson

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Then, he began work on Proximal Origins, which took weeks.

Just a clarification point, that the emails indicate that a draft of "Proximal Origins" was already circulating just 3 days after the conference call. So it's not entirely accurate to say that it took weeks to write the paper. All evidence suggests that it was drafted in just 3 days.

But you are correct when you state that they started with a pre-determined conclusion and made the study arrive at the desired result.
 
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stevil

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It's not confusing at all.
The confusing part is what probinson says and the opinion article he references. They are not following the facts and they are making some contradictory leaps. As I have said, probinson was complaining that Anderson spent a couple of weeks looking at disproving the lab leak theory but why isn't he complaining that Anderson at first determined the virus was engineered? Why isn't he recognising that Anderson has looked at this from both sides?
In 3 days, he changed from "looks engineered" to "lab leak is crackpot theory".
I am OK with him changing his conclusion. Good scientists do that when they come into evidence

Then, he began work on Proximal Origins, which took weeks. His own description of the work he was doing related to Proximal Origins was "trying to disprove lab leak theory".
This is not accurate.
He said he spent a couple of weeks trying to disprove the lab leak theory, but clearly he started off trying to prove the lab leak theory.
Clearly he looked at both options.
It was a biased article starting at a predetermined conclusion.
No, it wasn't. Very early in his investigation he was thinking the virus was engineered. We have the emails that prove this.

You continue to fabricate events, while Probinson has provided email evidence of exactly what transpired.
The emails show that Anderson initially thought the virus was engineered and recognised that he needed further investigation.
There is nothing nefarious in the emails, there is no evidence at all that anyone coerced anyone into any conclusions.
The emails do not prove the conspiracy theory that Probinson is trying to spread on the internet.
 
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