Palestinian Christian leaders in Bethlehem will forgo all Christmas festivities this year in solidarity with Gaza

FireDragon76

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Query how it is possible to live in peace with a neighbor who refuses to clearly and concretely define the borders between their territory and yours. I may live in peace with my neighbor, but if I were to wake up tomorrow and find that they've claimed my patio as a new settlement for themselves, is it I who violated the peace that existed before this action, or did they?

The Israeli Likud government for years has upheld this kind of ambiguity about its borders precisely to avoid real political solutions that would be costly to its power base.
 
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essentialsaltes

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There's no Christmas tree or sparkling lights in Manger Square or along the cobble-stone streets that should be bustling with foreign tourists this time of year. There will be no Christmas parade with musicians weaving through the old city's labyrinth walkways, no Santas on street corners doling out joy to children.

At Christmas House, Giacaman's shop, things have been bad since shortly after the Oct. 7 surprise attack on Israel by Gaza-based Hamas militants that killed 1,200 people, Israel says.

"This is the worst Christmas. Even during the first intifada, the second intifada, it was not like this," he says,

Just off of Manger square, Osama Al-Alli chats with a dozen or so of his fellow taxi drivers, as they wait in vain for a fare. In most years, there would be "many people coming from all the world,"

Al-Alli, who is a Muslim, worries about the future. "But I am praying for peace, for Israel and Palestine to come together," he says.

One of the few visitors is Florida resident Linda Nocera. Nocera thinks the decision by the city's churches to forego Christmas celebrations is the right one, "because of the war and because of all of the terrible killing," she says.

"It's heart-wrenching and I believe it's not of God in any way, shape or form," she says.

A short walk from the Church of the Nativity is the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church. There, the Rev. Munther Isaac and his congregation chose this year to make a statement about the killing of so many children in Gaza.

Using broken cement and paving stones, they placed the baby Jesus in the center of a pile of debris from a collapsed home, inspired by television images of children being pulled from the rubble, Issac says.

"I always say we need to de-romanticize Christmas," he says. "In reality, it's a story of a baby who was born in the most difficult circumstances and the Roman Empire under occupation, who survived the massacre of children himself when he was born. So the connection was natural to us."

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Valletta

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There's no Christmas tree or sparkling lights in Manger Square or along the cobble-stone streets that should be bustling with foreign tourists this time of year. There will be no Christmas parade with musicians weaving through the old city's labyrinth walkways, no Santas on street corners doling out joy to children.

At Christmas House, Giacaman's shop, things have been bad since shortly after the Oct. 7 surprise attack on Israel by Gaza-based Hamas militants that killed 1,200 people, Israel says.

"This is the worst Christmas. Even during the first intifada, the second intifada, it was not like this," he says,

Just off of Manger square, Osama Al-Alli chats with a dozen or so of his fellow taxi drivers, as they wait in vain for a fare. In most years, there would be "many people coming from all the world,"

Al-Alli, who is a Muslim, worries about the future. "But I am praying for peace, for Israel and Palestine to come together," he says.

One of the few visitors is Florida resident Linda Nocera. Nocera thinks the decision by the city's churches to forego Christmas celebrations is the right one, "because of the war and because of all of the terrible killing," she says.

"It's heart-wrenching and I believe it's not of God in any way, shape or form," she says.

A short walk from the Church of the Nativity is the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church. There, the Rev. Munther Isaac and his congregation chose this year to make a statement about the killing of so many children in Gaza.

Using broken cement and paving stones, they placed the baby Jesus in the center of a pile of debris from a collapsed home, inspired by television images of children being pulled from the rubble, Issac says.

"I always say we need to de-romanticize Christmas," he says. "In reality, it's a story of a baby who was born in the most difficult circumstances and the Roman Empire under occupation, who survived the massacre of children himself when he was born. So the connection was natural to us."

View attachment 340498
There can be peace, but Hamas needs to be wiped out and those many Gazans who support genocide need to turn to peace. This is a start.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Or because of decades of suppression, blockades, farms being put into no-go zones, having no control of their own country's water and electricity, having their money confiscated, schools shuttered, etc. resulted in a desperate attack. Now they're getting genocided.

Do you think they thought the attack would result in Israel's demise?

That could be a contributing factor, but I think we'd be wise to not buy into the rhetoric that many espouse, which seems to imply that "Had Israel just not ruled over Palestinians with such a heavy hand, the Palestinians (and Muslim world in general) wouldn't hate them so much"
(and that's not even getting into the fact that Israel's offered to give up control over the region and put it in the hands of Egypt or Lebanon a few different times over the years, and those countries said no - due to their own issues they have with Palestinians), and Palestinian leaders have turned down two-state proposals more times than I have fingers.

I think history should be leveraged as a valuable teacher on this one.

It's perfectly understandable that people see what Israel is doing is a case where the the punishment is disproportionate to the crime, but I don't think anyone should delude themselves into to believing that the Lion's share of the hostility isn't being driven simply by the fact that there's some Muslim hatred toward Jews that would happen whether Israel was occupying anyone or not.

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There are 20-something Muslim countries in that region, and most of them (despite being never occupied by Israel) still espouse the same sort of rhetoric.

I think it's a case where we have to come to grips with the fact that two things can be true at once. Yes, the way Palestinians are treated by the Israeli government is sub-par...however, it's also true that Israel could be the most gracious hosts ever, and the majority of Palestinians would still want them wiped out.

It's a generations old religious beef "My God and My holy book say this piece of land should belong to me"...those types of territory disputes don't seem to be greatly impacted based on how nice or mean one side is being to the other.
 
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FrankDougans

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the fact that they came right out and said we will do it again and again yes. They do not want to live in peace. that has caused all this.
Exactly. So many in the west have been brainwashed by "woke", leftist, socialistic thinking. They have no idea that all their gay friends would be executed in many Muslim countries, that they wouldn't be allowed to demonstrate or protest anything, anywhere, that in many of these countries females aren't even allowed outside without a male. They live in a prehistoric, cave man past.
Where were the demonstrations when 370,000 Yemenis perished in a recent conflict? Silent! Muslims kill Muslims to an infinitely greater extent than Israel does yet no one seems to notice their total brutality. Wake up. Israel is God's nation and Satan will do everything possible to destroy it.
Look around the world and you'll see Muslim nations don't do very well unless they are sitting atop mountains of oil. It's really pathetic how poor and backward they are without western help.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Look around the world and you'll see Muslim nations don't do very well unless they are sitting atop mountains of oil. It's really pathetic how poor and backward they are without western help.
While we'd likely have some ideological overlap with regards to the situation between the Arabic Muslim nations vs. Israel specifically with regards to that regional conflict, I think what you're saying here is cherry picking to an extent.

To suggest that "Muslims need Western Help specifically because they're Muslims unless they have huge amounts of natural reasources" would be false. Israel would crumble pretty quickly without Western help as well. We give them Billions and Billions.

There are also predominately Christian countries in Africa who wouldn't be able to survive without Western aid as well.

Pretty much any nation who isn't sitting on top a mountain of <insert valuable commodity here> ends up needing help regardless which religion they happen to subscribe to.
 
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Michael Snow

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Valletta

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Michael Snow

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The jihadists were not justified in their first attack and indeed are not justified now. They refuse to stop and refuse to release the rest of the hostages.
And that does not justify the slaughter of civilians. Two wrongs do not make a right.
 
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ralliann

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I have heard of no out of control rage by any credible sources
South Africa took Israel to the ICJ and laid a charge against Israel of committing a genocide; you’ve missed that?
 
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