pagan origins of elections

[Daniel Marsh]

I don't get what your point is either - are you pointing to elections being a Christian invention, or something like that? Or something else?

I am simply getting to the heart of this kind of fallacy. Nothing more.

Easter is coming up soon and at Christmas and Easter, people who have not learned how to think Critically should be answered intelligently by pointing out how poor their logic or lack thereof is.

 

[public hermit]

I get it. You're saying the point of this thread is not so much about its origin, i.e. post #1. The present post #21 is what matters.

 

[Tom 1]

I am simply getting to the heart of this kind of fallacy. Nothing more.

Easter is coming up soon and at Christmas and Easter, people who have not learned how to think Critically should be answered intelligently by pointing out how poor their logic or lack thereof is.

maybe you could save a bit of time for readers by outlining the fallacy and why your examples refute it. We can all copy and paste but it’s a bit discourteous to your readers.

 

[Chris V++]

I am simply getting to the heart of this kind of fallacy. Nothing more.

Easter is coming up soon and at Christmas and Easter, people who have not learned how to think Critically should be answered intelligently by pointing out how poor their logic or lack thereof is.

Is this in anticipation of those "Easter is pagan in origin' threads that start to pop up. Rabbits and eggs are fertility symbols, Ostara was a anglo saxon goddess etc: Ēostre - Wikipedia

or is the opposite, that the Christian Easter rituals shouldn't be accepted or practiced merely because of established tradition?

 

[Redwingfan9]

Elections were used as early in history as ancient Greece and ancient Rome ... In Vedic period of India, the Raja (chiefs) of a gana (a tribal organization) was apparently elected by the gana. The Raja belonged to the noble Kshatriya varna (warrior class), and was typically a son of the previous Raja. However, the gana members had the final say in his elections.[4] Even during the Sangam Period people elected their representatives by casting their votes and the ballot boxes (Usually a pot) were tied by rope and sealed. After the election the votes were taken out and counted.[5] The Pala King Gopala (ruled c. 750s–770s CE) in early medieval Bengal was elected by a group of feudal chieftains. Such elections were quite common in contemporary societies of the region.[6][7] In the Chola Empire, around 920 CE, in Uthiramerur (in present-day Tamil Nadu), palm leaves were used for selecting the village committee members. The leaves, with candidate names written on them, were put inside a mud pot. To select the committee members, a young boy was asked to take out as many leaves as the number of positions available. This was known as the Kudavolai system. Election - Wikipedia Anglo-Saxon paganism - Wikipedia

While I'm a monarchist, there are elections in scripture. Judas Iscariot's replacement was chosen via election in Acts.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I get it. You're saying the point of this thread is not so much about its origin, i.e. post #1. The present post #21 is what matters.

Exactly, I got the idea while talking with someone at the store, who said She was not going to vote. She was not able to handle Romans 13 and Paul employing his Roman Citizenship.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

maybe you could save a bit of time for readers by outlining the fallacy and why your examples refute it. We can all copy and paste but it’s a bit discourteous to your readers.

Sorry, first time breaching this topic. Just because someone one does not like uses candles does not mean a Church or Christian got the idea to use them from them. Nor, does it not mean we can not use candles.

If we were to stop using everything that pagans or non-believers use, what will we do without toilet paper?

We could go back to the Ancient way of using a stick with rags and three buckets of clean water, soapy water and vinegar and a towel.

Directions:

Put the stick in vinegar
then in Soap, follow by clean water and place it in the vinegar for the next person.

Google archaeology outside toilet ancient near east buckets stick rags to see I am not pulling your leg.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Is this in anticipation of those "Easter is pagan in origin' threads that start to pop up. Rabbits and eggs are fertility symbols, Ostara was a anglo saxon goddess etc: Ēostre - Wikipedia

or is the opposite, that the Christian Easter rituals shouldn't be accepted or practiced merely because of established tradition?

It is a simple basic refutation of the Anti-Easter and Anti-Christmas people.
They use what is also known as the copycat thesis that Atheists love to use concerning Jesus.

http://www.tektonics.org/copycathub.html

Shattering the Christ Myth (Tekton Building Blocks) Paperback – June 27, 2008
by James Patrick Holding (Author)
https://www.amazon.com/Shattering-C...=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215055331&sr=8-3

The Babylon Connection? Paperback – March, 1997
by Ralph Woodrow (Author)
https://www.amazon.com/Babylon-Conn...babylon+woodrow&qid=1581868949&s=books&sr=1-2

These are both good books that refutes that poor logic.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

While I'm a monarchist, there are elections in scripture. Judas Iscariot's replacement was chosen via election in Acts.

Roman elections predates. But, it does not matter really.

Acts 1:12-26 Good News Translation (GNT)
Judas' Successor
12 Then the apostles went back to Jerusalem from the Mount of Olives, which is about half a mile away from the city. 13 They entered the city and went up to the room where they were staying: Peter, John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James son of Alphaeus, Simon the Patriot, and Judas son of James. 14 They gathered frequently to pray as a group, together with the women and with Mary the mother of Jesus and with his brothers.

15 A few days later there was a meeting of the believers, about a hundred and twenty in all, and Peter stood up to speak. 16 “My friends,” he said, “the scripture had to come true in which the Holy Spirit, speaking through David, made a prediction about Judas, who was the guide for those who arrested Jesus. 17 Judas was a member of our group, for he had been chosen to have a part in our work.”

(18 With the money that Judas got for his evil act he bought a field, where he fell to his death; he burst open and all his insides spilled out. 19 All the people living in Jerusalem heard about it, and so in their own language they call that field Akeldama, which means “Field of Blood.”)

20 “For it is written in the book of Psalms,

‘May his house become empty;
may no one live in it.’
It is also written,
‘May someone else take his place of service.’

21-22 “So then, someone must join us as a witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. He must be one of the men who were in our group during the whole time that the Lord Jesus traveled about with us, beginning from the time John preached his message of baptism[a] until the day Jesus was taken up from us to heaven.”

23 So they proposed two men: Joseph, who was called Barsabbas (also known as Justus), and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know the thoughts of everyone, so show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to serve as an apostle in the place of Judas, who left to go to the place where he belongs.” 26 Then they drew lots to choose between the two men, and the one chosen was Matthias, who was added to the group of eleven apostles.

 

[Tom 1]

Sorry, first time breaching this topic. Just because someone one does not like uses candles does not mean a Church or Christian got the idea to use them from them. Nor, does it not mean we can not use candles.

If we were to stop using everything that pagans or non-believers use, what will we do without toilet paper?

We could go back to the Ancient way of using a stick with rags and three buckets of clean water, soapy water and vinegar and a towel.

Directions:

Put the stick in vinegar
then in Soap, follow by clean water and place it in the vinegar for the next person.

Google archaeology outside toilet ancient near east buckets stick rags to see I am not pulling your leg.

Aha, so your point is that we shouldn't abandon useful things just because they originated outside of the church?

 

[royal priest]

Once free, the Romans established a republic, a government in which citizens elected representatives to rule on their behalf. A republic is quite different from a democracy, in which every citizen is expected to play an active role in governing the state. The Roman Republic [ushistory.org]

The republic was designed to be protection from strict democracy.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Aha, so your point is that we shouldn't abandon useful things just because they originated outside of the church?

Amen, Yes that is what I have in mind. If you think of it, Since there is history of Edison being in a mind science cult, and Ford in spiritualism ---- we still can use vehicles, cars, trucks, buses for transportation and Electricity and anything else they invented.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The republic was designed to be protection from strict democracy.

Cool

 

[Josheb]

Elections were used as early in history as ancient Greece and ancient Rome ... In Vedic period of India, the Raja (chiefs) of a gana (a tribal organization) was apparently elected by the gana. The Raja belonged to the noble Kshatriya varna (warrior class), and was typically a son of the previous Raja. However, the gana members had the final say in his elections.[4] Even during the Sangam Period people elected their representatives by casting their votes and the ballot boxes (Usually a pot) were tied by rope and sealed. After the election the votes were taken out and counted.[5] The Pala King Gopala (ruled c. 750s–770s CE) in early medieval Bengal was elected by a group of feudal chieftains. Such elections were quite common in contemporary societies of the region.[6][7] In the Chola Empire, around 920 CE, in Uthiramerur (in present-day Tamil Nadu), palm leaves were used for selecting the village committee members. The leaves, with candidate names written on them, were put inside a mud pot. To select the committee members, a young boy was asked to take out as many leaves as the number of positions available. This was known as the Kudavolai system.

What is the point you're attempting to make here, Daniel? Is it being suggested elections are somehow inappropriate for Christians?

When Moses established organized leadership with the wandering Israelites God directed him to establish what we today would call a representative republic. Similarly, when the early church was selling its soon to be worthless property in Jerusalem and distributing the proceeds to those in need they too selected leaders and formed a representative form of governance.

I don't know whether the articles are still up or not but I encourage you to visit the American Vision blog and track down the study one of 1 ans 2 Samuel and the articles on "The County Rights Project" by Joel McDurmon.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

What is the point you're attempting to make here, Daniel? Is it being suggested elections are somehow inappropriate for Christians?

When Moses established organized leadership with the wandering Israelites God directed him to establish what we today would call a representative republic. Similarly, when the early church was selling its soon to be worthless property in Jerusalem and distributing the proceeds to those in need they too selected leaders and formed a representative form of governance.

I don't know whether the articles are still up or not but I encourage you to visit the American Vision blog and track down the study one of 1 ans 2 Samuel and the articles on "The County Rights Project" by Joel McDurmon.

Cool use Alt F type in Easter on this page to see where I am going or type in Fallacy.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Elections were used as early in history as ancient Greece and ancient Rome ... In Vedic period of India, the Raja (chiefs) of a gana (a tribal organization) was apparently elected by the gana. The Raja belonged to the noble Kshatriya varna (warrior class), and was typically a son of the previous Raja. However, the gana members had the final say in his elections.[4] Even during the Sangam Period people elected their representatives by casting their votes and the ballot boxes (Usually a pot) were tied by rope and sealed. After the election the votes were taken out and counted.[5] The Pala King Gopala (ruled c. 750s–770s CE) in early medieval Bengal was elected by a group of feudal chieftains. Such elections were quite common in contemporary societies of the region.[6][7] In the Chola Empire, around 920 CE, in Uthiramerur (in present-day Tamil Nadu), palm leaves were used for selecting the village committee members. The leaves, with candidate names written on them, were put inside a mud pot. To select the committee members, a young boy was asked to take out as many leaves as the number of positions available. This was known as the Kudavolai system. Election - Wikipedia Anglo-Saxon paganism - Wikipedia

It would surprise you to know that the election of leaders is not uniquely Pagan. Read the books of 1 Samuel, 1 and 2 Kings, and 1 and 2 Chronicles and you will discover that there were opportunities given to the people of Israel to choose their leaders, but did not always choose wisely; plus within the early Church, fellowships routinely elected elders who then in turn appointed Pastors and Bishops.

But even if democracies were of pagan origin, there is nothing in scripture forbidding the populace from electing leaders to rule over them. We can only call forbidden and sinful what scripture has called forbidden and sinful, but if scripture does not call a thing sinful or forbidden, then neither can we.

 

[Josheb]

Cool use Alt F type in Easter on this page to see where I am going or type in Fallacy.

I am often pointing out the logical fallacies I encounter in posts. Upsets people. I don't know about you but if I'm shown I'm making a false cause argument I'd endeavor to self-correct it. I usually proofread my posts for such errors before clicking "Post Reply."

Easter and Christmas are two excellent examples of how the gospel victoriously usurped pagan views and practice and the reality is no one today in the 21st century is worshiping the sun when they go to church on December 25. I recommend everyone read "Pagan Christianity" by Frank Viola and George Barna to get a brief summary of just how much modern Christianity has assimilated from Middle-Eastern, Greek, Roman, English, and other cultures.



Thx for that tip about Alt-F, too. I knew the find combo but never used it before.

 

[Contenders Edge]

I still don't understand the point of the OP.

I believe the point of the OP is to generate discussion about whether or not God forbids Christians to participate in electing civic leadership. Nothing in scripture to suggest that it is. In fact, the more godly and principled leaders are elected, the more evil is restrained, but you can only have God-fearing and principled leadership when you have a populace that fears God and demands the same of its government.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

rth

 

[Bruce Leiter]

Elections were used as early in history as ancient Greece and ancient Rome ... In Vedic period of India, the Raja (chiefs) of a gana (a tribal organization) was apparently elected by the gana. The Raja belonged to the noble Kshatriya varna (warrior class), and was typically a son of the previous Raja. However, the gana members had the final say in his elections.[4] Even during the Sangam Period people elected their representatives by casting their votes and the ballot boxes (Usually a pot) were tied by rope and sealed. After the election the votes were taken out and counted.[5] The Pala King Gopala (ruled c. 750s–770s CE) in early medieval Bengal was elected by a group of feudal chieftains. Such elections were quite common in contemporary societies of the region.[6][7] In the Chola Empire, around 920 CE, in Uthiramerur (in present-day Tamil Nadu), palm leaves were used for selecting the village committee members. The leaves, with candidate names written on them, were put inside a mud pot. To select the committee members, a young boy was asked to take out as many leaves as the number of positions available. This was known as the Kudavolai system. Election - Wikipedia Anglo-Saxon paganism - Wikipedia

God calls us to live under the authority of our rulers in Romans 13. Though elections have a pagan origin, I participate because I'm a citizen of the USA and a citizen of heaven (Philippians 3:20-21).

 

[NeedyFollower]

Exactly, I got the idea while talking with someone at the store, who said She was not going to vote. She was not able to handle Romans 13 and Paul employing his Roman Citizenship.

Of course the early american christians did not subject their selves to the powers that be ( King George ) and England and according to Romans , they will reap the rebellion so not sure why Romans 13 is directive for christians to vote . Maybe she feels that if she does or does not vote , the outcome will be the same , Christ will return in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God and obey not the gospel . ( 2 Thessalonians 1:8 ) And of course she may think that Jeremiah was a better prophet than some of today's teachers . Cursed is the man who trust in man and makes the flesh the arm of his strength and who's heart departs from the Lord ( Jeremiah 17:5 ) And of course we have Romans 1 29-32 where it list backbiters , implacable , people full of debate and says they are haters of God . It could be she has her hope in God through Christ and recognizes politics as not a viable hope but rather a breeding ground for hate and a distraction from Jesus . This could be her reasons . Politics do seem a bit schismatic , not full of humbleness of mind ...not much meekness and kindness ( If any man cause divisions contrary to the doctrines you have seen and heard of me , mark that man and avoid him for he serves his own belly and not the Lord Jesus Christ . So , it does seem if she were going to vote her conscience and only vote for a humble person , by their running they would be disqualified .
If the church is the body of Jesus , who would Jesus vote for ? Would he vote or would He care ?