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Featured pagan origins of elections

Discussion in 'Christian History' started by Daniel Marsh, Feb 14, 2020.

  1. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Elections were used as early in history as ancient Greece and ancient Rome ... In Vedic period of India, the Raja (chiefs) of a gana (a tribal organization) was apparently elected by the gana. The Raja belonged to the noble Kshatriya varna (warrior class), and was typically a son of the previous Raja. However, the gana members had the final say in his elections.[4] Even during the Sangam Period people elected their representatives by casting their votes and the ballot boxes (Usually a pot) were tied by rope and sealed. After the election the votes were taken out and counted.[5] The Pala King Gopala (ruled c. 750s–770s CE) in early medieval Bengal was elected by a group of feudal chieftains. Such elections were quite common in contemporary societies of the region.[6][7] In the Chola Empire, around 920 CE, in Uthiramerur (in present-day Tamil Nadu), palm leaves were used for selecting the village committee members. The leaves, with candidate names written on them, were put inside a mud pot. To select the committee members, a young boy was asked to take out as many leaves as the number of positions available. This was known as the Kudavolai system. Election - Wikipedia Anglo-Saxon paganism - Wikipedia
     
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  2. JackRT

    JackRT OOPS!!! Supporter

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    This is not an election in the modern sense of the word --- it is more like drawing straws --- a chance event. But, I still do not know what point you are trying to make by pointing out pagan origins.
     
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  3. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Winston Churchill said that democracy was the worst form of government. Except for any other form of government. Anyone who believes otherwise has not lived under another system. Christians should be most diligent in praying for the government, no matter who is in charge. We get the leaders that we pray for.
     
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  4. Not David

    Not David Der Ewige Katechumene

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    Nothing wrong with pagan origin.
     
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  5. JackRT

    JackRT OOPS!!! Supporter

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    Winston Churchill also said: "The Americans will always do the right thing ---- after all other possibilities have been tried and found wanting".:D
     
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  6. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes, he was remarkably insightful and very, very funny.
     
  7. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    For Greece that is true. But, it was considered to be an election. And, for a pagan origin to be true, what is required?
     
  8. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    rth
     
  9. .Mikha'el.

    .Mikha'el. Mod Queue Spam Troll Banner Extraordinaire! Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    I still don't understand the point of the OP.
     
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  10. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Part of it is humor. The other part is to show how poor the pagan origins argument really is.
     
  11. Tom 1

    Tom 1 Optimistic sceptic Supporter

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    I don't get what your point is either - are you pointing to elections being a Christian invention, or something like that? Or something else?
     
  12. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Early Voting in Ancient Greece
    Since approximately 508 B.C., Ancient Greece seems to have implemented the earliest form of democracy. Greeks had a "negative" election -- that is, each year voters, who were the male land owners, were asked to vote for the political leader or "candidates" they most wanted to be exiled for the next ten years.

    The early ballot system was voters wrote their choice on broken pieces of pots, ostraka in Greek, and from this name comes our present word to ostracize. If any "candidate" received more than 6,000 votes then the one with the largest number was exiled. If no politician received 6,000 votes then they all remained. Since voters were only male land owners, the number of voters was small. If there was a fairly even spread of votes, no one would be exiled, so usually only very unpopular political leaders were ostracized or exiled.

    Today, however, there are few politicians who would survive 6,000 negative votes!

    History Of Elections
     
  13. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Once free, the Romans established a republic, a government in which citizens elected representatives to rule on their behalf. A republic is quite different from a democracy, in which every citizen is expected to play an active role in governing the state. The Roman Republic [ushistory.org]

     
  14. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Elections are not new to India. There are numerous mentions of republican forms of governments in Buddhist literature as well as in the accounts of Greek invaders who described some states as 'pure democracies'. This excerpt from V.S. Rama Devi and S.K. Mendiratta's book 'How India Votes: Election Laws, Practice and Procedure' sheds light on the history of voting and elections in ancient India. (Photo Source: Nilanjana Chaudhary/Al Jazeera/Flickr)How India Votes: History of Elections in Ancient India | Sahapedia
     
  15. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    The main legislative assembly of the late Republic was the Comitia Tributa, which was also in charge of the elections of Roman magistrates. This assembly was organised around the voting unit of the tribe – a territorial unit to which each Roman citizen belonged by birth or legal act. Elections in the late Roman Republic: how did they work?
     
  16. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Voting for most offices was open to all full Roman citizens, a group that excluded women, slaves and originally those living outside of Rome. In the early Republic the electorate would have been small, but as Rome grew it expanded. The Lex Julia of 90 BCE extending voting rights to citizens across Italy greatly expanded the franchise. By the final Republican census of 70 BCE there were 910,000 possible electors. Elections in the Roman Republic - Wikipedia
     
  17. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the pagan root argument is not really an argument, in fact it really does not tell us anything about the morality of the day or tree. This type of thinking happens to be a fallacy. It’s called a genetic fallacy. For example, consider the Volkswagen company, it was birthed out of Nazi Germany. Hitler himself, the way I understand it, had a direct hand in the company and in the making and designing of some vehicles. So my question to you is this, should we not drive VW’s?

    ...

    Something is good or bad, right or wrong because of the rightness or wrongness or goodness or badness of the thing itself and what it means to the present culture.

    Christians Who Fear Christmas, Because It Has Pagan Origins, Is That Good Thinking?
     
  18. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    genetic fallacy

    The Genetic Fallacy is the most general fallacy of irrelevancy involving the origins or history of an idea. It is fallacious to either endorse or condemn an idea based on its past—rather than on its present—merits or demerits, unless its history is in some way relevant to its present value. So, the Genetic Fallacy is committed whenever an idea is evaluated based upon irrelevant history.
    Logical Fallacy: Genetic Fallacy
     
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  19. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Definition

    The genetic fallacy arises whenever we dismiss a claim or argument because of its origin or history.

    Examples

    1) You cannot believe Bob’s idea because it came from his dream.

    2) The psychologist says Tim believes in God because Tim lost his father at a young age. So, God doesn’t exist.

    3) That is not possible because he got the idea from a science fiction film.

    4) Volkswagons are poor cars because the Nazis created them.

    Discussion

    To better understand the problem, imagine Pythagoras created his theorem after smoking a joint. The drug-induced origin does not make the idea false. Just as we can examine the mathematical proofs for Pythagoras' Theorem and ignore the drug-induced origin, so we can rationally examine the evidence and ignore the origins of any belief.

    The genetic fallacy also arises when a person gives evolutionary reasons to explain away beliefs. The problem is explaining the cause for the claim is usually irrelevant to whether the claim is true. For example, let's say there is evidence that belief in the physical world arose for evolutionary reasons. I would be committing the genetic fallacy if I argued the physical world does not exist because it arose for evolutionary reasons. The evolutionary explanation is only helpful in such debates if I already have strong and independent arguments against belief in the physical world. 4. Genetic Fallacy - Lucid Philosophy
     
  20. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Examples of Genetic Fallacy:
    1. My parents told me that God exists; therefore, God exists.

    2. My sixth grade teacher, Mr. Harris, said that all women are bad drivers, so it must be true.

    3. I have known the mayor since I was five years old. So, if she says that the commissioners are corrupt, then it must be true.

    4. She is a teacher in a public school, so any claims that she makes about the public school system are biased and untrue.

    5. The newspaper editor homeschools his children. So, any claims he makes about the public school system are biased and untrue.

    6. My big brother told me that boys cannot be trusted, and I believe him.

    7. My doctor is overweight, so I don't believe anything he tells me about improving my health.

    8. Donald Trump is a millionaire, so anything he says about the economically disadvantaged people in the country is a bunch of lies.

    9. The New York Times printed that article, so everything in it must be true.

    10. You saw that on the cover of a tabloid, and we all know that everything in tabloid magazines is false.

    Genetic Fallacy Examples
     
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