Paedobaptist challenge

[Malleeboy]

Credobaptists often rely on biblical references and ignore church history but if you accept that the church normally baptized via credo, but allowed infant baptism near death, than a fairly strong case can be made from church history.

Historical examples of credobaptisms

• Ephraim the Syrian
• Basil of Ceasarea (26 yrs old)
• Gregory of Nyssa
• Gregory of Nazianzus
• Gregory (father of Gregory of Nazianzus)
• Gorgonia (sister of Gregory of Nazianzus)
• Caesarius (brother of Gregory of Nazianzus)
• John Chrysostom (18 yrs)
• Ambrose (34 yrs)
• Jerome
• Heliodorus (friend of Jerome)
• Rufius (friend of Jerome)
• Rufinus
• Paulinus of Nola
• Augustine (31 yrs)
• Satyrus (Ambrose’s brother)
• Rufinus of Aquileia

Inscriptions (people baptised just prior to dying)

• Marcianus (12 yrs baptized 1 day before death)
• Tyche (1 yr 10 m baptized on day of death)
• Appronianus (1 yr 9m near death)
• Julia Florentina (1 yr 6m baptized on day of death)
• Postumius Eutenion (6 yrs baptized on day of death)
• Felite (30 yrs bapized 34 days before death)
• Fortunia (4 yrs baptized bear death)
• Antonia Cyriaceti (19 yrs baptized 4 days before death)
• Flavia (3 yrs 10 m baptized 5 months before death)

Inscriptions refering to neophytes (that is only newly baptized Christians)

• Flavius Aurelius (6yrs)
• Perpetuus (30 yrs)
• Proiertcus (2 yrs 7 m)
• Eugenia (19 years)

Polycarp does not give an age at which he was baptized, he says he followed Christ for 86 years, but there is no firm proof that he was 86 when martyred. The Harris fragments give a Syrian tradition he was 104. Irenaeus says that “he spoke with many that had seen Christ”, “by apostles he was appointed bishop “ (note plural apostles, when was the last date that another apostle along with John would have been in Asia-minor?), “he lived a very long time” and “he was a very old man”. Tradition says he was made bishop at 40. John the Apostle’s age also comes into the calculation (eg if John died at 100 AD, then Polycarp to have been made bishop by him at 40, would have been born around AD 60, and if Polycarp is martyred around 155 AD, Polycarp is around 95 at death but if was martyred at 166 AD then he was around 104. If however has was indeed at 86 at death, then in AD 100 has is either 31 or 20)

I have read the following asserted by Everett Ferguson in "Baptism in the Early Church -History, Theology and Liturgy in the First five Centuries", that there no examples of an infant baptism of a named individual that was not occasioned by imminent death before the 4th century. Can any Paedobaptists give an example of an infant baptism of a named individual not occasioned by imminent death before Julian the Apostate?

 

[Derf]

Credobaptists often rely on biblical references and ignore church history but if you accept that the church normally baptized via credo, but allowed infant baptism near death, than a fairly strong case can be made from church history.

Historical examples of credobaptisms

• Ephraim the Syrian
• Basil of Ceasarea (26 yrs old)
• Gregory of Nyssa
• Gregory of Nazianzus
• Gregory (father of Gregory of Nazianzus)
• Gorgonia (sister of Gregory of Nazianzus)
• Caesarius (brother of Gregory of Nazianzus)
• John Chrysostom (18 yrs)
• Ambrose (34 yrs)
• Jerome
• Heliodorus (friend of Jerome)
• Rufius (friend of Jerome)
• Rufinus
• Paulinus of Nola
• Augustine (31 yrs)
• Satyrus (Ambrose’s brother)
• Rufinus of Aquileia

Inscriptions (people baptised just prior to dying)

• Marcianus (12 yrs baptized 1 day before death)
• Tyche (1 yr 10 m baptized on day of death)
• Appronianus (1 yr 9m near death)
• Julia Florentina (1 yr 6m baptized on day of death)
• Postumius Eutenion (6 yrs baptized on day of death)
• Felite (30 yrs bapized 34 days before death)
• Fortunia (4 yrs baptized bear death)
• Antonia Cyriaceti (19 yrs baptized 4 days before death)
• Flavia (3 yrs 10 m baptized 5 months before death)

Inscriptions refering to neophytes (that is only newly baptized Christians)

• Flavius Aurelius (6yrs)
• Perpetuus (30 yrs)
• Proiertcus (2 yrs 7 m)
• Eugenia (19 years)

Polycarp does not give an age at which he was baptized, he says he followed Christ for 86 years, but there is no firm proof that he was 86 when martyred. The Harris fragments give a Syrian tradition he was 104. Irenaeus says that “he spoke with many that had seen Christ”, “by apostles he was appointed bishop “ (note plural apostles, when was the last date that another apostle along with John would have been in Asia-minor?), “he lived a very long time” and “he was a very old man”. Tradition says he was made bishop at 40. John the Apostle’s age also comes into the calculation (eg if John died at 100 AD, then Polycarp to have been made bishop by him at 40, would have been born around AD 60, and if Polycarp is martyred around 155 AD, Polycarp is around 95 at death but if was martyred at 166 AD then he was around 104. If however has was indeed at 86 at death, then in AD 100 has is either 31 or 20)

I have read the following asserted by Everett Ferguson in "Baptism in the Early Church -History, Theology and Liturgy in the First five Centuries", that there no examples of an infant baptism of a named individual that was not occasioned by imminent death before the 4th century. Can any Paedobaptists give an example of an infant baptism of a named individual not occasioned by imminent death before Julian the Apostate?

Do you have the dates for each of your examples? I.e., when they lived?

 

[ViaCrucis]

There are three lines of evidence which convince me of the paedobaptist position:

1) In Scripture infants and children are explicitly and implicitly included in God's covenant people, as we see in God's command to circumcise male children on the 8th day after their birth; and because Scripture mentions entire households as being baptized. A household would include the head of the household, all family members both young and old, as well as servants/slaves. Further, there is nothing in Scripture which would suggest infants are to be excluded from the Church, excluded from Jesus. Jesus rebuked His disciples when they tried to stop parents bringing their infants and children to Him. Scripture teaches that the gift of baptism is for "you and your children, and all who are far off". Everything in Scripture points to God welcoming children into communion with Himself by His love and grace.

2) The universal witness of the historic Church is that infants and small children are to be baptized. Even our only counter-witness (Tertullian) doesn't deny the validity and significance of baptism to infants, but instead held to a really bad theology about sin after baptism. Tertullian, famously, left the Church to become a Montanist.

3) Jewish practice involving ritual washing (tevilah) in a bath (mikveh), which is the historic and religious context of Christian Baptism. When the New Testament mentions the "baptisms" in Judaism, this is what it is talking about. One of the ways ritual washing in a mikveh was used was for conversion to Judaism. Formal conversion to Judaism involved, after a lengthy process, an immersion into a mikveh that signified the death of the old life as a Gentile, and the birth of a new life as a Jew. And infants/children were converted along with their parents. This is still the way things are done today in Judaism. This is also why in the third chapter of John when Jesus is talking with Nicodemus Jesus says, "Are you not a teacher of Israel?", that is, "You're a rabbi, you should know what I'm talking about". Nicodemus would have been familiar with the way washing in a mikveh was used to indicate newness, new life, conversion, purity, etc. So when Jesus says, "You must be born again", and clarifies what He means by speaking of being "born of water and the Spirit", Jesus was not speaking in riddles. Jesus was speaking as a Jew to a fellow Jew.

So these three lines of evidence: Scripture, history, and the Jewish context of Christian Baptism all convince me of the position I hold: we have no right to refuse baptism to infants and small children. We are not the gatekeepers of God's grace, the Gospel is for everyone.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Malleeboy]

Do you have the dates for each of your examples? I.e., when they lived?

There are a book but most of the initial people are the major figures in the church.

 

[Malleeboy]

Via Crucis,

In was hoping to get an answer to my challenge. I would prefer answer you questions on another thread.
I think a number assertions are not supported from the church fathers.


Can any Paedobaptists give an example of an infant baptism of a named individual not occasioned by imminent death before Julian the Apostate?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Via Crucis,

In was hoping to get an answer to my challenge. I would prefer answer you questions on another thread.
I think a number assertions are not supported from the church fathers.


Can any Paedobaptists give an example of an infant baptism of a named individual not occasioned by imminent death before Julian the Apostate?

I guess I didn't see the challenge. But yes, of course the early fathers support that,

"Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" - St. Hippolytus, The Apostolic Tradition 21:4

"For He came to save all through means of Himself — all, I say, who through Him are born again to God — infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men." - St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies Book 2.22:4
"And dipped himself," says [the Scripture], 'seven times in Jordan.' It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [it served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: 'Unless a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'" - ibid., Lost Works, Fragment 34

"But in respect of the case of the infants, which you say ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, and that the law of ancient circumcision should be regarded, so that you think that one who is just born should not be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day, we all thought very differently in our council. For in this course which you thought was to be taken, no one agreed; but we all rather judge that the mercy and grace of God is not to be refused to any one born of man." - St. Cyprian of Carthage, Epistle 58:2

“The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit” - Origen, Commentaries on Romans 5:9

Why would you think that infant baptism was only practiced when it was a life or death situation?

And why do you think the fathers you mention support credobaptism? Do they teach against the validity of baptizing infants, or do they merely mention adult converts being baptized?

Because every church that baptizes infants also baptizes adult converts, I would have thought that obvious. No church practices infant-only baptism, that'd be silly. Churches which baptize infants baptize everyone, because we understand in baptism the sacramental seal of God's grace, new birth from God by His grace alone, working and creating faith by the power of His grace and word.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dan Perez]

Credobaptists often rely on biblical references and ignore church history but if you accept that the church normally baptized via credo, but allowed infant baptism near death, than a fairly strong case can be made from church history.

Historical examples of credobaptisms

• Ephraim the Syrian
• Basil of Ceasarea (26 yrs old)
• Gregory of Nyssa
• Gregory of Nazianzus
• Gregory (father of Gregory of Nazianzus)
• Gorgonia (sister of Gregory of Nazianzus)
• Caesarius (brother of Gregory of Nazianzus)
• John Chrysostom (18 yrs)
• Ambrose (34 yrs)
• Jerome
• Heliodorus (friend of Jerome)
• Rufius (friend of Jerome)
• Rufinus
• Paulinus of Nola
• Augustine (31 yrs)
• Satyrus (Ambrose’s brother)
• Rufinus of Aquileia

Inscriptions (people baptised just prior to dying)

• Marcianus (12 yrs baptized 1 day before death)
• Tyche (1 yr 10 m baptized on day of death)
• Appronianus (1 yr 9m near death)
• Julia Florentina (1 yr 6m baptized on day of death)
• Postumius Eutenion (6 yrs baptized on day of death)
• Felite (30 yrs bapized 34 days before death)
• Fortunia (4 yrs baptized bear death)
• Antonia Cyriaceti (19 yrs baptized 4 days before death)
• Flavia (3 yrs 10 m baptized 5 months before death)

Inscriptions refering to neophytes (that is only newly baptized Christians)

• Flavius Aurelius (6yrs)
• Perpetuus (30 yrs)
• Proiertcus (2 yrs 7 m)
• Eugenia (19 years)

Polycarp does not give an age at which he was baptized, he says he followed Christ for 86 years, but there is no firm proof that he was 86 when martyred. The Harris fragments give a Syrian tradition he was 104. Irenaeus says that “he spoke with many that had seen Christ”, “by apostles he was appointed bishop “ (note plural apostles, when was the last date that another apostle along with John would have been in Asia-minor?), “he lived a very long time” and “he was a very old man”. Tradition says he was made bishop at 40. John the Apostle’s age also comes into the calculation (eg if John died at 100 AD, then Polycarp to have been made bishop by him at 40, would have been born around AD 60, and if Polycarp is martyred around 155 AD, Polycarp is around 95 at death but if was martyred at 166 AD then he was around 104. If however has was indeed at 86 at death, then in AD 100 has is either 31 or 20)

I have read the following asserted by Everett Ferguson in "Baptism in the Early Church -History, Theology and Liturgy in the First five Centuries", that there no examples of an infant baptism of a named individual that was not occasioned by imminent death before the 4th century. Can any Paedobaptists give an example of an infant baptism of a named individual not occasioned by imminent death before Julian the Apostate?

And 2 Peter 1:21 reads , But holy men of God spake as they were MOVED by the Holy Spirit and not by other writers >

dan p