Pacifism among Adventists

[Michael Snow]

I would like to have some understanding of the history and current practice among Adventists. My main experience has been with Quakers who started out as pacifists. These days, like all denominations, there are a variety of approaches among them. The liberal Quakers (some of whom can hardly be called "Christians") have maintained the pacifist position but, mostly, it is not Christ centered as it was among the early Quakers. The evangelical Quakers may be officially pacifists but many ignore or are embarrassed by it. Like many Christians, their religion has been 'Americanized.'

In relation to this, I note that Ben Carson was at the top of his class in ROTC etc. Did he grow up Adventist or was there a later conversion? One friend who was a Quaker pastor had an army general as a recorded member (though he did not live anywhere near; it was a matter of his family being member.)



https://spurgeonwarquotes.wordpress.com/

 

[Ubuntu]

Hi Michael!

Adventists are often conscientious objectors/noncombatants. In my country military service is mandatory, and I had to apply for an exemption, as most young adventists in my country do.

The history of pacifism among adventists goes all the way back to the civil war, when we argued that participating in war would be a violation of the law of God.

When faced with a draft, adventists have often served as medics, refusing to bear arms. Desmond Doss is an example of such a person, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Doss

However, it's my impression that our historic tendency towards pacifism has been somewhat challenged in the later years, especially in the United States. I think the reason for this is mostly cultural, adventists have been influenced by the strong, supportive attitude many Americans have for the military. For instance, when discussing weapons in adventist settings, I'm often surprised about how many American adventists who will argue that owning guns for protection is a good thing. Then again, it's also my impression that elsewhere in the world (at least here in Europe) adventists generally tend to be more in line with our historic stance.

For an introduction to this topic, see: http://archives.adventistreview.org/2003-1535/story5.html

 

[Ubuntu]

Here is an interesting article I found about Canadian Adventists who were conscientious objectors during WW2.

Abstract:
This paper tells the story of Canadian Seventh-day Adventist conscripts in WWII who appeared before Mobilization Boards to verify their claim to be conscientious objectors (CO). The Boards acted as gatekeepers. Early in the war, to be classified as a CO meant the young man was sent off to an alternative service work camp. While the loss of personal freedom was regrettable their lot was much more agreeable than those denied CO status. Religious men who were denied the CO status meant he faced ridicule, imprisonment, and hard labour for maintaining their refusal to bare a rifle in the regular forces. The Board’s refusal to exempt such men was due, in no small part, to the capricious nature of its chair.

Humbug! Seventh-day Adventist conscientious objectors in WWII standing before the Mobilization Board
http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/creed-free...ientious-objectors-wwii-standing-mobilization

 

[Ubuntu]

I think most would agree that the American Civil War, which essentially was a war over slavery, fits the definition of what people call "just war".

I think it's interesting to point out that Ellen White urged adventists to stay away from this war, even if adventists were firm abolitionists and had their sympathies with the Northern States.

Here is what she says:

"I was shown that God’s people, who are His peculiar treasure, cannot engage in this perplexing war, for it is opposed to every principle of their faith. In the army they cannot obey the truth and at the same time obey the requirements of their officers. There would be a continual violation of conscience. Worldly men are governed by worldly principles. They can appreciate no other. Worldly policy and public opinion comprise the principle of action that governs them and leads them to practice the form of rightdoing. But God’s people cannot be governed by these motives. The words and commands of God, written in the soul, are spirit and life, and there is power in them to bring into subjection and enforce obedience."

1T p.361

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I think most would agree that the American Civil War, which essentially was a war over slavery, fits the definition of what people call "just war".

Actually, it was much more than that... it was about keeping the Rothschild bankers and their Jesuit handlers from taking control of the country. The victory by the north kept them out temporarily but the evil cabal finally managed to subvert the country in 1913 by the implementation of the Federal Reserve.

So, even more so than anti slavery, this was a war against the Papacy but God did not condone His people to fight in it...

 

[ricker]

Actually, it was much more than that... it was about keeping the Rothschild bankers and their Jesuit handlers from taking control of the country. The victory by the north kept them out temporarily but the evil cabal finally managed to subvert the country in 1913 by the implementation of the Federal Reserve.

So, even more so than anti slavery, this was a war against the Papacy but God did not condone His people to fight in it...

I'm genuinely interested in what you say here. I'm a history buff, especially of the 20th century and the US civil war, and would love to here more about the causes of the US civil war as it relates to Catholicism. Could you please explain further, or give me a link to a website giving me more information on this subject?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I'm genuinely interested in what you say here. I'm a history buff, especially of the 20th century and the US civil war, and would love to here more about the causes of the US civil war as it relates to Catholicism. Could you please explain further, or give me a link to a website giving me more information on this subject?

Google is pretty easy to use...

Here's a link you can check out that references a few books written on the subject.

http://www.spirituallysmart.com/lincoln.htm

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Another...
http://www.truthontheweb.org/abe.htm

 

[CaptainToad]

Pacifism is a nice idea, on the other hand the old testament israel wasnt pacifist at all

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Pacifism is a nice idea, on the other hand the old testament israel wasnt pacifist at all

Christ was though and taught us to be as well... do unto others... turn the other cheek... persecuted and killed for His names sake... you get the idea.

 

[ricker]

Another...
http://www.truthontheweb.org/abe.htm

A very perfunctory reading of this seems to say that somehow the Jesuits had an issue with President Lincoln that could be involved with his assassination. What does this have to do with the cause of the US Civil War being "keeping the Rothschild bankers and their Jesuit handlers from taking control of the country" ?

Edit to add: Do you have any sources that are not original SDA propaganda?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

A very perfunctory reading of this seems to say that somehow the Jesuits had an issue with President Lincoln that could be involved with his assassination. What does this have to do with the cause of the US Civil War being "keeping the Rothschild bankers and their Jesuit handlers from taking control of the country" ?

Edit to add: Do you have any sources that are not original SDA propaganda?

I am not your nanny.. you can do your own research if you are as interested as you say...

 

[Michael Snow]

Back on the topic, I grew up in a main line denomination. But while a Marine, ran across the Quaker witness in front of the White House during the Vietnam era.

You can read of my journey with the free "look inside" feature if you look up Christian Pacifism: Fruit of the Narrow Way.

 

[Ubuntu]

Back on the topic, I grew up in a main line denomination. But while a Marine, ran across the Quaker witness in front of the White House during the Vietnam era.

You can read of my journey with the free "look inside" feature if you look up Christian Pacifism: Fruit of the Narrow Way.

Thanks for sharing! I'll definitively look up your book at some point. Too bad that it's only available as a Kindle book, though. Have you ever considered having your book reprinted?

 

[Michael Snow]

Yes, I've thought of having it reprinted...just POD, Print on Demand. Lest expensive route. It is so hard to sell books, and then you take a topic most folks are against and you know it will never pay for itself, not even cover a good percentage of the expenses.

 

[BobRyan]

I would like to have some understanding of the history and current practice among Adventists. My main experience has been with Quakers who started out as pacifists. These days, like all denominations, there are a variety of approaches among them. The liberal Quakers (some of whom can hardly be called "Christians") have maintained the pacifist position but, mostly, it is not Christ centered as it was among the early Quakers. The evangelical Quakers may be officially pacifists but many ignore or are embarrassed by it. Like many Christians, their religion has been 'Americanized.'

In relation to this, I note that Ben Carson was at the top of his class in ROTC etc. Did he grow up Adventist or was there a later conversion? One friend who was a Quaker pastor had an army general as a recorded member (though he did not live anywhere near; it was a matter of his family being member.)


So SDAs promote non-combatant but not conscientious objection.
https://spurgeonwarquotes.wordpress.com/

Desmond Dos - an SDA in 2nd world war - a non-combatant - who participates in the battle as a Medic - is the classic example of how SDAs have viewed participation in war. We do not believe we should not participate in it -- but there is a strong statement in the denomination that favors not killing the enemy. Be that as it may - it is not a doctrine and not a test of fellowship - so someone that chooses to go to war and to bear arms is not in any way rejected by the church.

So then non-combatant is the most that is promoted by SDAs. We do not endorse conscientious objection.

 

[Ubuntu]

Yes, I've thought of having it reprinted...just POD, Print on Demand. Lest expensive route. It is so hard to sell books, and then you take a topic most folks are against and you know it will never pay for itself, not even cover a good percentage of the expenses.

Yes, you're definitively right, it's expensive to print books. Print on demand is of course an option, (Lulu, Blurb, etc), and the good things about this is that your costs will be minimal, and by paying a small fee your (printed) book will be listed on Amazon as well.

But yeah, selling books is the difficult part. Have you spent money advertising your book? Someone here on this forum recommended Goodreads as a good place to advertise, see this post: http://www.christianforums.com/threads/any-ideas-on-how-to-promote-a-book.7830386/#post-67485923

 

[Ubuntu]

So then non-combatant is the most that is promoted by SDAs. We do not endorse conscientious objection.

About your last sentence. Only 1/18 of adventists live in the US. In many countries (including my own) you aren't given the option of serving as a noncombatant when drafted. Thus, the only acceptable option for adventists in many parts of the world is therefore conscientious objection, and in these places you'll often find that conscientious objection (or modified pacifism) is what's officially recommended by the local conferences. So your last sentence isn't completely factual, what "we" recommend or endorse depends on the circumstances.

It's true that adventists don't disfellowship people for joining the army, but this doesn't mean that we historically have been neutral concerning the question of bearing arms:

“[T]he bearing of arms, or engaging in war, is a direct violation of the teachings of our Savior and the spirit and letter of the law of God” (1867, Fifth Annual General Conference Session).

 

[BobRyan]

As a conscientious objector are you exempt from having to join the military in your country - when a draft is in place?

 

[Ubuntu]

As a conscientious objector are you exempt from having to join the military in your country - when a draft is in place?

We have mandatory military service in my country (for males and females), and until quite recently we had civilian (non-military) service as an alternative to military service for those who were conscientious objectors.

The civilian service has been abolished, but conscientious objectors are fortunately still granted an exemption to military service if they apply for it. Being a conscientious objector is a lot easier today than it used to be. A couple of decades ago adventists had to go through an intimidating interview with the police if they wanted civilian service due to their convictions.