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P. E. T. A.

Discussion in 'News & Current Events (Articles Required)' started by TheBear, Jul 25, 2003.

  1. ocean

    ocean Banned (just kidding)

    +3
    Agnostic
    How do you know that animals do not have souls? How do you know that humans do have souls? Do souls even exist?

    We are not "higher" than the other animals, but we do have a higher level of intelligence and conciousness. That does not make us any more or less important than the other animals, and because we have a higher level of intelligence, we can choose not to torture or murder the animals for our pleasure.

    As far as the bible is concerned, if that's what you believe, fine, but you have no right to impose your religious beliefs on others. The bible was written thousands of years ago, and some aspects of it are archaic and outdated. There is absolutely no reason to eat the flesh of dead animals, it is not necessary to our happiness or suvival.

    As far as P.E.T.A is concerned, I think they are way over the top and their approach is actually discouraging people from becoming vegetarians and encouraging them to abuse animals.
     
  2. CZSuzie

    CZSuzie New Member

    8
    +0
  3. EvolvEarth

    EvolvEarth Active Member

    845
    +20
    Buddhist
    You would've had a good argument if plants did indeed have a central nervous system. Since they don't, we don't know if they experience pain and suffering as we do, and most likely they do not.

    Everyone contributes to animal cruelty, but the goal is to reduce the amount of death of animals as possible. It's an unrealistic goal for humans to stop all animal suffering, because humans are animals and should be able to survive in this world, too, but since we do not need to eat meat, why waste more lives than necessary?

    Your mistake is comparing intelligence of humans with other animals and then saying we're more valuable than them because of it. If that were so, then the mentally handicapped humans should be tested on, used for food for the less fortunate, taken organs out of, and so on. We don't do that. Why not? Using your argument, intelligence is required for something to have value. Also, I suppose the more intelligence one is, the more important and valuable that person is as well.

    Equality should be with the experience of pain and suffering, NOT with how intelligent an animal is. It's ridiculous to rate worth based on something as meaningless as intelligence. Human intelligence has made many animals go extinct, killed many fellow humans, and helps pollute the earth. So much for being intelligent.

    As for the Bible, no one knows if this book holds any truth to it, so I wouldn't go by this book for the meaning of animals' lives.

    It's really sad that something has to have the capacity for language in order to have value, then. I guess you can go ahead and kill autistic children since many of them have no capacity for language.

    And neither do humans. ;)
     
  4. CZSuzie

    CZSuzie New Member

    8
    +0
    Maybe you don't but I do! ;)
     
  5. EvolvEarth

    EvolvEarth Active Member

    845
    +20
    Buddhist
    CZSuzie, the belief in the soul is purely emotional based. There's nothing rational about believing in the soul.
     
  6. two feathers

    two feathers of the wilderness

    +28
    Christian
    Married
    Wrong. John Myers told you so.

    According to the Bible...

    *Genesis 9:5 ...I will even hold animals accountable if they kill you.

    *Isaiah 43:20 Even wild dogs and owls honor me.

    Animals don't have souls? Then explain to me how the above can hold true for beings without souls.
     
  7. judifedway

    judifedway ask the animals-Job 12:7

    29
    +1
    Thereare enough verses in the Bible to cause me to believe animals do have souls and there's a good chance they will be in heaven.

    But that's not the subject of this post.

    As an animal lover, it bothers me no end the negative image Peta is giving people who are realistically concerned about the welfare of animals.

    Someone should tell them they need to hire a new pr agent quick.

    Thanks to them, animals lovers are ridiculed and are dismissed as either mentally unbalanced or "Bambi Lovers."

    Does anyone remember the "Got Beer" campaign, saying that it physically hurts the cows when attached to a milking machine? First off, cows *need* to be milked otherwise they would be in serious pain. Secondly, if cows were in that much pain, they would not be standing quietly. They would be kicking and struggling.

    Second, Peta believes no one should have pets. That statement speaks volumes. If people were not allowed to have pets, our Yorkie would have been dead along time ago. Instead, we have spent several hundred dollars on vet bills.

    Third,they keep saying no animal should be killed. Sometimes, crumby as it is, humanely killing an animal is the kindest thing a person can do for it. Fortunately I never saw it, but heard about a greyhound that was brought animal control and spent days continually trying to climb over the top of the kennel. The dog was traumatized and giving her a merciful death was the best thing.

    I wish they would focus on getting slaugher houses to improve their killing methods, so the animals would feel as little stress as possible; I wish they would focus on educating hunters the importance of not shooting an animal until they can get a clear shot and not just wounding it; I wish they would concentrate on finding better methods for furriers to kill the mink, chinchilla and fox instead of inserting an electric probe into their rectum. I wish . . . for a lot of things.

    But maybe what I wish for most is not to be looked down upon because I lose sleep over the atrocities and the cruelty inflicted on animals.
     
  8. CZSuzie

    CZSuzie New Member

    8
    +0
    John Myers was just the first place I found the text from the Bible there are many more however.

    9:5**And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
    Refers to capital punishment.

    Isaiah
    9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.


    43:20 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.

    Beast has been given to mean the image of idolaters, those who are non believers. Their souls are have not turned to GOD, so like animals they are not blessed by GOD.
     
  9. judifedway

    judifedway ask the animals-Job 12:7

    29
    +1
    Who is John Meyers? I have never heard of him.

    Genesis 9:5 says "from every beast I will require it" - to me that means even the animals are accountable for their actions.

    Genesis 9:15 "I will remember my covenant that is between you and me and every living creature of all living flesh." Why would God make a covenant with animals?

    Psalm 36:6c ". . . man and beast you save, O Lord."

    Trust me, there are a lot more.

    Do you mean Genesis 9: 3 instead of Isaiah 9:3? What does that have to do with whether or not animals have souls? "Every moving thing" *could* refer to humans (sorry, I couldn't resist!) as well.

    I could continue to answer everyone of your questions, but this is not the subject of this thread.

    There's a thread asking the question as to whether or not there will be animals in heaven. Please don't take offense, but maybe your comments would fit more in that forum.

    The subject of this thread is PETA, and the statements their followers have made.
     
  10. TheBear

    TheBear NON-WOKED

    +1,771
    United States
    Atheist
    Private
    Let's take a look at Genesis 9....Shall we? :)

    Genesis 9:1-11

    "1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. 2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. 3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. 4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. 5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. 6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. 7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.

    8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying, 9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; 10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth. 11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
    "


    BTW, what Bible translation did you get that from? I could not find it in any translation, (I searched in over 20 translations), and the other translations do not say anything like that. :scratch: Please do not intentionally misrepresent or misquote scripture to make your case.

    Now let's take a look at Isaiah 43 in context. :)

    Isaiah 43:14-21

    "14 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: "For your sake I will send to Babylon, And bring them all down as fugitives-- The Chaldeans, who rejoice in their ships. 15 I am the Lord, your Holy One, The Creator of Israel, your King." 16 Thus says the Lord, who makes a way in the sea And a path through the mighty waters, 17 Who brings forth the chariot and horse, The army and the power (They shall lie down together, they shall not rise; They are extinguished, they are quenched like a wick): 18 "Do not remember the former things, Nor consider the things of old. 19 Behold, I will do a new thing, Now it shall spring forth; Shall you not know it? I will even make a road in the wilderness And rivers in the desert. 20 The beast of the field will honor Me, The jackals and the ostriches, Because I give waters in the wilderness And rivers in the desert, To give drink to My people, My chosen. 21 This people I have formed for Myself; They shall declare My praise."

    Nowhere in either Genesis or Isaiah is it stated that animals have souls.
     
  11. TheBear

    TheBear NON-WOKED

    +1,771
    United States
    Atheist
    Private
    Let's get back on topic....P.E.T.A. and it's campaign tactics. :)
     
  12. Ryder

    Ryder Whatever was the deplorable word

    +255
    Protestant
    Single
    US-Republican
    I think the jewish community should file lawsuites against PETA. If I had family that was killed in the nazi program (or any other systematic genocide) I would be at a loss for words to describe how offensive I would find it that any group should equate this loss with a KFC meal or BigMac. How popular would I be if I said the plight of the black slaves is no different than dogs being chained up by their owners. I suspect the black comunity wouldn't appreciate this comparison, and rightly so. I sincerely hope the Jews don't put up with this garbage either.
     
  13. two feathers

    two feathers of the wilderness

    +28
    Christian
    Married
    NIrV

    Why don't you allow me to answer the question of what translation I used in my argument before you make false accusations.

    Believe whatever you want.
     
  14. judifedway

    judifedway ask the animals-Job 12:7

    29
    +1
    Hi Two Feathers:
    Does NIrV stand for New International Revised Version? With all the new versions and acronymns coming out on a daily basis, it's almost impossible to keep up. :confused:

    Happy Monday.

    Judi
     
  15. two feathers

    two feathers of the wilderness

    +28
    Christian
    Married
    Hey Judy.

    You were close. It stands for New International Reader's Version.

    See ya around.
     
  16. EvolvEarth

    EvolvEarth Active Member

    845
    +20
    Buddhist
    Ryder, fortunately, there are people out there that actually believe that suffering animals is just as bad as suffering humans. I see nothing wrong with comparing the horrible attrocities done to animals with the horrible attrocities done to the Jews.

    If you want to define something evil, then eating meat is just as evil as killing a Jew for just being a Jew. This is how we feel, and sorry if you don't like it, but there are people in this world that have a bigger heart than you do.
     
  17. TheBear

    TheBear NON-WOKED

    +1,771
    United States
    Atheist
    Private
    NIrV...no wonder I did not find it. It is not a legimate translation of scripture, by any stretch of the imagination. Instead, it is a relatively new 'study' aid, (mainly geared towards children 12 and under), not translated from the original Hebrew, Latin or Greek manuscripts, but 'based' on the NIV. In other words, it is an interpretation of a translation, watered down to be understood by children. They have also come out with another NIrV geared towards adults, but again, these are interpretations of a translation....a 'study' aid...nothing more.


    Back on topic....

    The thing I am observing with great amazement, is that one of the following is being done by some, without giving it a second thought. Either mankind is being lowered to the level of animals, or animals are being raised to the level of mankind.

    The Nazi's lowered the Jews to the level of animals. P.E.T.A. has chosen to parralell that by raising animals to the level of mankind. Neither concept is supported in scripture. Both concepts are reprehensible. :(
     
  18. Knight

    Knight Knight of the Cross

    +111
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Republican
    ***WARNING, The following is strictly my opinion.***


    PETA have lost their marbles a long time ago. This new ad campaign is just the latest example. Personally, I encourage them to continue with the wacko ads and tactics. It won't help their cause it'll destroy it.
     
  19. SqueezetheShaman

    SqueezetheShaman Well-Known Member

    +121
    Agnostic
    there is no law stating that a human can not believe in their heart that an animals life is as important as a humans. i love how some christians are always so quick to want to use the law and government to shut up people you do not agree with.
    animal rights activists know your "garbage" will be ignored by those with a heart.

    to get back on topic...
    Peta's tactics....i think the decision is already made before you are familiar with them. Those of you on here who already believe that we humans should not strive to treat these animals better will see peta as disgusting. I have always agreed with them, but was too lazy to act on it and stop eating meat, or meat products. After this thread started, i went to their site, watched their Meet your meat vid, and decided it was time to make a change. So their tactics work on some. Everyone on here keeps discussing their "horrible practices" but don't give example as to what is so terribly wrong.can we get examples? if the only one is the ad that compares animals to the jews, then i don't see anythign wrong wtih that? is that the worst they have done? is that all you find so terrible?

    Soemthing else i find so admirable about most animal rights activists, is that they are also environmentalists. Although that too is something conservatives/christians like to attack. That seems so insane to me. I dont understand how you don't respect that. Your God gave you this earth, why don't you want to treat it with respect, and hold on to it as long as possible.

    *********************************

    earlier someone brought up milking cows, and said how it needs to be done, and it isnt painful. Well sure, if it is done the right way, but the problem is that the factory farms do not do it the "right" way. a simple google search will find you the information about that, if you are even interested. i have a feeling you are not, so i wont bother finding them for you.
    that itself is the biggest problem. some people just dont care. must suck to be you. actually....maybe not. I would love to lose my empathy. I wouldn't be so sad every time i watched the news.
     
  20. Ryder

    Ryder Whatever was the deplorable word

    +255
    Protestant
    Single
    US-Republican
    There is a difference between respecting the earth God put under our care and worshiping the earth as if it could care for us. You'll probably find that most Christians believe peta and other enviro-groups cross over this distinction and thus we (at least this Christian) holds them in little regard, because their positions are so unscriptural. This add campaign is just a simple example. They equate animal with people. I think TheBear said it correctly, they raise animals to the levels of humans, and in particular they view animal suffering as equivalent to human suffering. This isn't a scriptural concept. The Bible tells us we may eat meat freely quite blatantly. So if your seriously curious as to why most Christians don't support peta and peta-style groups, it's quite simple, they advocate unscriptural concepts and stand against some clear concepts in the Bible. Why would we buddy up with them? We may be conservationist, but we won't align with other conservationists that carry extra-scriptural baggage like these unBiblical notions (to say nothing of the widely held mother earth mother geia nonsense that many of these groups also put forward).
     
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