Outrage over high school trans runner rising to 4th in girls’ division after placing 172nd in boys’

[HARK!]

Parents and students were outraged over a transgender runner competing with the girls in the Maine XC Festival of Champions on Saturday.


Maine Coast Waldorf School high school sophomore Soren Stark-Chessa previously competed in the boys’ category for the school one year prior.


In the 5k division, Stark-Chessa ranked approximately 172nd among males in the state.


After transitioning, however, the runner shot up to 4th place in the girls’ division.

Outrage over high school trans runner rising to 4th in girls’ division after placing 172nd in boys’

Parents and students were outraged over a transgender runner competing with the girls in the Maine XC Festival of Champions on Saturday.

nypost.com

 

[USincognito]

So she didn't medal.

 

[HARK!]

So she didn't medal.

He took 4th place from a deserving contestant.

 

[USincognito]

He took 4th place from a deserving contestant.

Thanks for confirming that she didn't medal.

 

[HARK!]

Thanks for confirming that she didn't medal.

I don't know if there was a 4th place medal or not; but her win was stolen by a male imposter.

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

So she didn't medal.

What difference does it make? If men should be allowed to participate in women's sports they should also be allowed to win medals, and if men don't belong into women's sports then they shouldn't participate at all. Saying that men are allowed to take 4th place but not 3rd isn't in any way logically cohesive.

 

[Pommer]

Oh lookie, another “outliers are the ‘new normal’!” thread.
Pfft.

 

[RDKirk]

So she didn't medal.

I don't think you understand how Title IX sports works.

She's pushing some natural young woman out of the running for a scholarship.

 

[RDKirk]

Oh lookie, another “outliers are the ‘new normal’!” thread.
Pfft.

I guess that depends on what you're graphing.

If you're graphing "total number of transwomen competing in women's sports," they look like outliers.

If you graph "transwomen winning women's sports when they compete," they're not outliers.

The smart bet is always on the transwoman.

 

[RileyG]

He's a boy. *Not* a "she." Period. He has no business running in the girls division. Period.

 

[USincognito]

I don't think you understand how Title IX sports works.

I understand that 4th place isn't a medal winning position.

She's pushing some natural young woman out of the running for a scholarship.

You really think colleges don't take numerous factors, including gender assigned at birth into account? I just checked out the NCAA regulations on trans athletes and they are currently implementing a three phase testing and evaluation regime for trans athletes.

That said, I'm not sufficiently invested in this subject to get outraged one way or the other. I'll leave that to you culture warriors.

 

[RDKirk]

I understand that 4th place isn't a medal winning position.

You really think colleges don't take numerous factors, including gender assigned at birth into account? I just checked out the NCAA regulations on trans athletes and they are currently implementing a three phase testing and evaluation regime for trans athletes.

Not according to the recent Biden executive order on the subject.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

While I have a somewhat "moderate" view on the overarching subject as a whole.

Moderate in that if I can tell a person's clearly trying to identify as a woman, I'll call them by the name/pronoun they prefer, and I don't really have any issues pertaining to the whole bathroom aspect (Do #2's in whatever area you feel comfortable).

Sports is an aspect where I tend to lean more toward the conservative arguments. (within the context of sports where physical prowess matters... I don't think it matters much for sports like billiards, curling, and bowling)


A few probing questions are worth asking with regards to sports, and I'd be interested to hear the answers from people who are okay with this sort of thing for physical sports.

1) Why were there separate leagues created for males and females in the first place?

2) Where those reasons for initially separating the leagues valid?

If the answer to question 2 is "Yes"
-3A) Then why are those reasons no longer valid?

If the answer to question 2 is "No"
-3B) Does that mean we should do away with gendered leagues and just have everyone all play in the same leagues for all sports?

No matter which path you go down, this is a somewhat paradoxical line of logic that doesn't have a rational conclusion.

If there were valid reason(s) for separating certain sports by sex in the first place, then those reasons aren't any less applicable today. If their reasons for separating them in the first place were invalid, then that means we should just abolish the separated leagues and have everyone (male or female) all compete in the same leagues, right?. Meaning "Sorry WNBA players, league's dissolving...good luck with your tryout for the Lakers...what's that, Leslie??, you can't outmuscle and cover LeBron when he's at power forward...hmmm...you must have just not worked hard enough, sorry, best person gets the job" would become the new standard...which virtually nobody would tolerate as at the high school level, there would certainly be scholarship implications as well.

The ultimate reality is, for physical sports, 99 times out of 100, a high level female athlete won't be able to compete against a high level male counterpart.

Point of reference.

Marita Koch still has the world record for the women's 400m with a time of 47.60. (and that was in a time when doping in sports wasn't even all that strictly enforced, she admitted to using using steroids back in the 80's when she set that record)

Where that time would fall in the men's division?
Right behind whoever this guy is...
Greg Nixon, whose personal best has the rank of #4,047 with a 47.20.

 

[RDKirk]

If there were valid reason(s) for separating certain sports by sex in the first place, then those reasons aren't any less applicable today. If their reasons for separating them in the first place were invalid, then that means we should just abolish the separated leagues and have everyone (male or female) all compete in the same leagues, right?. Meaning "Sorry WNBA players, league's dissolving...good luck with your tryout for the Lakers...what's that, Leslie??, you can't outmuscle and cover LeBron when he's at power forward...hmmm...you must have just not worked hard enough, sorry, best person gets the job" would become the new standard...which virtually nobody would tolerate as at the high school level, there would certainly be scholarship implications as well.

The ultimate reality is, for physical sports, 99 times out of 100, a high level female athlete won't be able to compete against a high level male counterpart.

Point of reference.

Marita Koch still has the world record for the women's 400m with a time of 47.60. (and that was in a time when doping in sports wasn't even all that strictly enforced, she admitted to using using steroids back in the 80's when she set that record)

Where that time would fall in the men's division?
Right behind whoever this guy is...
Greg Nixon, whose personal best has the rank of #4,047 with a 47.20.

This is an area where I get really scared, because there are sports experts on both sides as well as medical professionals on both sides.

But actual observation and statistics tell a consistent story.

 

[Pommer]

This is an area where I get really scared, because there are sports experts on both sides as well as medical professionals on both sides.

But actual observation and statistics tell a consistent story.

But transgender athletes are always going to being outliers.
Yes, MtF athletes will always have a competitive advantage over biological females.
But there’s not going to be a sudden influx of transgender athletes who will wreck havoc in women’s sports.
Here and there, by ones and twos there will be anomalies. So what?

The notion that marginal male athletes will take it into their head to be “the best” as a woman is silly.

 

[HARK!]

Roanoke Democrat says women losing to transgender athletes should train ‘harder’​

Wow!

 

[ThatRobGuy]

But transgender athletes are always going to being outliers.
Yes, MtF athletes will always have a competitive advantage over biological females.
But there’s not going to be a sudden influx of transgender athletes who will wreck havoc in women’s sports.
Here and there, by ones and twos there will be anomalies. So what?

The notion that marginal male athletes will take it into their head to be “the best” as a woman is silly.

The trajectories with regards to identification suggest that they won't be an outlier for long if the current trends continue, so best to hash this out now.

This is the NY Times, certainly not a scaremongering right-wing outlet, and they're acknowledging it

At 1.9 percent, Generation Z—those who were born between 1997 and 2004—has the highest percentage of people who say they identify as trans among all previous three generations.

Among millennials, 1.0 percent identify as trans, while among Generation X—those born between 1965 and 1980—and baby boomers—born between 1946 and 1964—this number plunges to 0.3 and 0.2, respectively. Among the Silent Generation—born between 1928 and 1945—those identifying as trans are less than 0.05 percent.

0.05
0.2
0.3
1.0
1.9

Other publications are also acknowledging sharp upticks in how people choose to identify

New studies find millions of young nonbinary and transgender Americans

Story at a glance Roughly 1.6 percent of American adults are now transgender or nonbinary, according to a 2022 survey. That number is higher still among young adults, with 5 percent of people…

thehill.com

So, again, better to hash this out now and not a few decades down the road when 20% of people identify as something other than the traditional binary.


To clarify, I don't think that marginal male athletes are identifying as women purely to be "the best woman and win something"...I'm not quite that cynical. However, that's still the typical end result regardless of the motivations behind why someone choose to change how they identify.

 

[RDKirk]

But transgender athletes are always going to being outliers.
Yes, MtF athletes will always have a competitive advantage over biological females.
But there’s not going to be a sudden influx of transgender athletes who will wreck havoc in women’s sports.
Here and there, by ones and twos there will be anomalies. So what?

The notion that marginal male athletes will take it into their head to be “the best” as a woman is silly.

It would be silly only if it had never happened.

As I said, you don't understand how Title IX scholarships work. "Here and there, by ones and twos" can have a significant impact.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Roanoke Democrat says women losing to transgender athletes should train ‘harder’​

Wow!

Kinda ties in with what I posted earlier when I said...
"Meaning "Sorry WNBA players, league's dissolving...good luck with your tryout for the Lakers...what's that, Leslie??, you can't outmuscle and cover LeBron when he's at power forward...hmmm...you must have just not worked hard enough, sorry, best person gets the job" will become the new norm"

It's almost as ridiculous as when, back when the Fallon Fox controversy was happening, the defense was "Oh yEaH, weLl RhoNdA RouSey wOulD beat uP most mEn!!"...as if that even remotely describes the "norm" of what happens when a biological female has a physical competition with a biological male and implies that the biological advantage males enjoy is trivial/nonexistent.


The science is pretty clearly defined on this one.

Per the British Journal of Medicine:
Twelve months of treatment to suppress testosterone is the period currently recommended by World Athletics (IAAF) and the International Olympics Committee to ensure a level playing field for all competing athletes.

But the study findings indicate that while hormone treatment was associated with changes in athletic performance, transgender women still retained a noteworthy competitive advantage 2 years later.

Researchers also found that for certain sports, while suppressing to 10 nmol/L for one year may effectively remove some advantages, for sports (especially ones relying on upper body strength and grip strength), 12 months of suppressing to 10 nmol/L only resulted in a -5% change when compared to the baseline numbers.

Meanwhile, researchers also found the typical biological gap between women and men is so great that 10,000 males have personal-best times that are faster than the current Olympic 100m female champion, as does the 14-year-old male schoolboy 100m record holder.


I'm not trying to be particularly harsh on the left on this one...I understand wanting to be empathetic to "normal everyday life" scenarios. I'm not going to go out of my way to spot a trans woman in the grocery store, and start yelling "you're a man!" and make them feel bad. If I see that someone's clearly trying to identifying as a woman, I'll address them as such, and I don't care what bathroom they choose to "drop the kids off at the pool" in.

But there are scenarios in which biology matters, and we have to be honest about that.

There was once the quote that defined "Political Correctness" as "The elevation of sensitivity over truth", and I think the current transgender sports debate fits that definition perfectly.

 

[USincognito]

Not according to the recent Biden executive order on the subject.

That'd nice.