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Outer Darkness (LDS Version)

Rescued One

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They wouldn't fit into the category of final Outer Darkness, if that is what you are wanting to know. (They would be assigned the Telestial Kingdom.) Read what I posted again - specifically here:

Sons of perdition are those who receive “no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it,

Those who never repent will not have received the Holy Spirt.


I wonder how the unrepentant can be forgiven in Mormonism and why they would go to a kingdom of glory.

The followers of Satan who will suffer with him in eternity. Sons of perdition include (1) those who followed Satan and were cast out of heaven for rebellion during premortality, and (2) those who were permitted to be born to this world with physical bodies but then served Satan and turned utterly against God. Those in this second group will be resurrected from the dead but will not be redeemed from the second (spiritual) death and cannot dwell in a kingdom of glory (D&C 88:32, 35).
Sons of Perdition


“The miracle of forgiveness is available to all of those who turn from their evil doings and return no more, because the Lord has said in a revelation to us in our day: ‘Go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth [meaning again] shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God’ (D&C 82:7). Have that in mind, all of you who may be troubled with a burden of sin” Harold B. Lee, The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, p. 120

“Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven."
Doctrine and Covenants 1:32
 
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Ran77

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I wonder how the unrepentant can be forgiven in Mormonism and why they would go to a kingdom of glory.

The followers of Satan who will suffer with him in eternity. Sons of perdition include (1) those who followed Satan and were cast out of heaven for rebellion during premortality, and (2) those who were permitted to be born to this world with physical bodies but then served Satan and turned utterly against God. Those in this second group will be resurrected from the dead but will not be redeemed from the second (spiritual) death and cannot dwell in a kingdom of glory (D&C 88:32, 35).
Sons of Perdition


“The miracle of forgiveness is available to all of those who turn from their evil doings and return no more, because the Lord has said in a revelation to us in our day: ‘Go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth [meaning again] shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God’ (D&C 82:7). Have that in mind, all of you who may be troubled with a burden of sin” Harold B. Lee, The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, p. 120

“Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven."
Doctrine and Covenants 1:32


All of this has been responded to.


:)
 
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Thank you for the excellent summary of your faith. There is nothing there that I find fault with, although, of course, I do not share your views. I always appreciate your efforts to remain calm and balanced.

To summarize, those who were murderers will suffer extreme torment in hell (the outer darkness, as it were) for eternity. I assume that is what was meant in the original statement that they would be there until "the last farthing is paid". Is this correct?
As I invision the concept of outer darkness, that is a realm of no glory, or a place where law does not govern. Persons who have pride that will not yield to any law whatsoever will be in that outer darkness eternally.

As for murderers, I feel certain that they cannot be all considered the same. If sufferings in the spirit prison causes them to shed some pride or all of their pride, and they truly repent with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, as all of us must do as well for the sins we have commited, then I believe that they will receive the level of glory according to the level of law that they will harmonize with. The gift of our Lord's Atonement extends to any and all that will repent. Our repentance does not pay for His gift, His gift is already given .... We simply must use it by repenting!
 
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As I invision the concept of outer darkness, that is a realm of no glory, or a place where law does not govern. Persons who have pride that will not yield to any law whatsoever will be in that outer darkness eternally.

As for murderers, I feel certain that they cannot be all considered the same. If sufferings in the spirit prison causes them to shed some pride or all of their pride, and they truly repent with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, as all of us must do as well for the sins we have commited, then I believe that they will receive the level of glory according to the level of law that they will harmonize with. The gift of our Lord's Atonement extends to any and all that will repent. Our repentance does not pay for His gift, His gift is already given .... We simply must use it by repenting!

I apologize for not making myself clearer. I was referring to the murderers in the quote from Brigham Young. It is these murderers which, if I understand him correctly, will be in hell and will suffer eternal torment (until the last farthing is paid). There is no indication in that statement of any possibility of their repenting or of them being in Spirit Prison. Do you also see it that way for these individuals?
 
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Rescued One

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All of this has been responded to.


:)


The fact that someone didn't receive the Holy Spirit and never repented doesn't entitle them to a kingdom of glory. So you may have responded, but this quote from lds.org contradicts what you posted.

The followers of Satan who will suffer with him in eternity. Sons of perdition include (1) those who followed Satan and were cast out of heaven for rebellion during premortality, and (2) those who were permitted to be born to this world with physical bodies but then served Satan and turned utterly against God. Those in this second group will be resurrected from the dead but will not be redeemed from the second (spiritual) death and cannot dwell in a kingdom of glory (D&C 88:32, 35).
Sons of Perdition

This says nothing about the Holy Spirit.
 
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The fact that someone didn't receive the Holy Spirit and never repented doesn't entitle them to a kingdom of glory. So you may have responded, but this quote from lds.org contradicts what you posted.

The followers of Satan who will suffer with him in eternity. Sons of perdition include (1) those who followed Satan and were cast out of heaven for rebellion during premortality, and (2) those who were permitted to be born to this world with physical bodies but then served Satan and turned utterly against God. Those in this second group will be resurrected from the dead but will not be redeemed from the second (spiritual) death and cannot dwell in a kingdom of glory D&C 88:32, 35).
Sons of Perdition

This says nothing about the Holy Spirit.

Did you read the complete quote from your link? Two qualifiers.

Sons of perdition deny the Holy Spirit after receiving it. D&C 76:35;
Sons of perdition deny the Son after the Father has revealed him. D&C 76:43;
(the Father reveals the Son by the Holy Ghost)

It amazes me how simple and direct, fair and merciful, this criteria is that explain how the children of God are either saved or condemned, and that so many people would rather believe that His children are condemned to everlasting torment because God created them out of nothing to be that way.
 
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Ran77

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The fact that someone didn't receive the Holy Spirit and never repented doesn't entitle them to a kingdom of glory. So you may have responded, but this quote from lds.org contradicts what you posted.

The followers of Satan who will suffer with him in eternity. Sons of perdition include (1) those who followed Satan and were cast out of heaven for rebellion during premortality, and (2) those who were permitted to be born to this world with physical bodies but then served Satan and turned utterly against God. Those in this second group will be resurrected from the dead but will not be redeemed from the second (spiritual) death and cannot dwell in a kingdom of glory (D&C 88:32, 35).
Sons of Perdition

This says nothing about the Holy Spirit.


Where does it contradict?


:confused:
 
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Rescued One

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Did you read the complete quote from your link? Two qualifiers.

Sons of perdition deny the Holy Spirit after receiving it. D&C 76:35;
Sons of perdition deny the Son after the Father has revealed him. D&C 76:43;
(the Father reveals the Son by the Holy Ghost)

It amazes me how simple and direct, fair and merciful, this criteria is that explain how the children of God are either saved or condemned, and that so many people would rather believe that His children are condemned to everlasting torment because God created them out of nothing to be that way.

Okay, those who hear the gospel in the spirit world, reject it, and refuse to repent after having heard the gospel, after having been subjected to Mormon hell, go to a place of glory? Really?

...those who were permitted to be born to this world with physical bodies but then served Satan and turned utterly against God. Those in this second group will be resurrected from the dead but will not be redeemed from the second (spiritual) death and cannot dwell in a kingdom of glory (D&C 88:32, 35).

24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.
D&C 88


13 Finally, I bid you farewell, until I shall meet you before the pleasing bar of God, which bar striketh the wicked with awful dread and fear. Amen.
Book of Mormon, Jacob 6

15 And thus he shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on his name; this being the intent of this last sacrifice, to bring about the bowels of mercy, which overpowereth justice, and bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance.
Alma 34
 
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Okay, those who hear the gospel in the spirit world, reject it, and refuse to repent after having heard the gospel, after having been subjected to Mormon hell, go to a place of glory? Really?

It seems to me that there is one key concept, that I have tried to explain, which is not quite clicking. Any kingdom (place) of glory has its glory as a result of the laws that hold or keep that realm in existance. Without law, there is nothing but chaotic matter, including both physical and spirit element. The greater and more complete the laws are, the greater is the glory. God's Kingdom is the fulness of laws and is governed by the same.
The primary issue that is an obstacle to a person accepting any law is personal pride. "Mormon hell," as you choose to call it, is one means to provide man the necessary refinement, as dross is removed from gold by fire, so that he may sacrifice his pride for something much better. If his pride is extracted, he will love the laws that bring glory and joy, comensurate to the pride he lets go of. If such person does not repent and will not abide by any law, he returns to chaotic (my personal pov) origin, located somewhere that will not interfere with the realms of glory.

How, or why do you calculate that those who refuse to repent will inherit any level of glory?

Update edit: I see where you correctly calculated the above.
. Those who accept the gospel may dwell in paradise until the Resurrection. After they are resurrected and judged, they will receive the degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who choose not to repent but who are not sons of perdition will remain in spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be freed from hell and punishment and be resurrected to a telestial glory (see D&C 76:81-85).

The ultimate sin, that delineates outer darkness from the lowest possible level of glory is the sin of perdition. They will not bend knee, and confess that Jesus is the Christ. Confessing that Jesus is the Christ is an act of submission to law and denotes some degree of humility, and a glory in the telestial kingdom will accomidate them.
 
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Rescued One

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It seems to me that there is one key concept, that I have tried to explain, which is not quite clicking. Any kingdom (place) of glory has its glory as a result of the laws that hold or keep that realm in existance.

I'm aware of this.

Without law, there is nothing but chaotic matter, including both physical and spirit element.

Everyone who came to earth gets resurrected; that's not exactly chaotic.

The greater and more complete the laws are, the greater is the glory. God's Kingdom is the fulness of laws and is governed by the same.

I understand that.

The primary issue that is an obstacle to a person accepting any law is personal pride. "Mormon hell," as you choose to call it, is one means to provide man the necessary refinement, as dross is removed from gold by fire, so that he may sacrifice his pride for something much better. If his pride is extracted, he will love the laws that bring glory and joy, comensurate to the pride he lets go of.

I'm aware of this. lds.org refers to the suffering as hell.


If such person does not repent and will not abide by any law, he returns to chaotic (my personal pov) origin, located somewhere that will not interfere with the realms of glory.

I haven't seen anything to substantiate your POV.


How, or why do you calculate that those who refuse to repent will inherit any level of glory?

I didn't calculate it or think that LDS teach it. Ran77 said those beings go to the telestial kingdom. I was talking about people who wouldn't abide any law.

Update edit: I see where you correctly calculated the above.
. Those who accept the gospel may dwell in paradise until the Resurrection. After they are resurrected and judged, they will receive the degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who choose not to repent but who are not sons of perdition will remain in spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be freed from hell and punishment and be resurrected to a telestial glory (see D&C 76:81-85).

The ultimate sin, that delineates outer darkness from the lowest possible level of glory is the sin of perdition. They will not bend knee, and confess that Jesus is the Christ. Confessing that Jesus is the Christ is an act of submission to law and denotes some degree of humility, and a glory in the telestial kingdom will accomidate them.

Can there be rebellious people who chose to follow Satan without ever having had the Gift of the Holy Ghost? See:

Sons of perdition include (1) those who followed Satan and were cast out of heaven for rebellion during premortality, and (2) those who were permitted to be born to this world with physical bodies but then served Satan and turned utterly against God. Those in this second group will be resurrected from the dead but will not be redeemed from the second (spiritual) death and cannot dwell in a kingdom of glory (D&C 88:32, 35).
lds.org

Those in the second group cannot dwell in a kingdom of glory.
 
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Ran77

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Can there be rebellious people who chose to follow Satan without ever having had the Gift of the Holy Ghost? See:

Sons of perdition include (1) those who followed Satan and were cast out of heaven for rebellion during premortality, and (2) those who were permitted to be born to this world with physical bodies but then served Satan and turned utterly against God. Those in this second group will be resurrected from the dead but will not be redeemed from the second (spiritual) death and cannot dwell in a kingdom of glory (D&C 88:32, 35).
lds.org

Those in the second group cannot dwell in a kingdom of glory.


Here are the verses from section 88:

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

33 For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.

34 And again, verily I say unto you, that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same.

35 That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain ffilthy still.


How do you determine who is quickened by a portion of the Telestial glory? What are the Telestial laws that they must break in order to become Sons of Perdition? And what does it take to utterly turn from God?

Maybe the other sections of the Doctrine and Covenants are where that is better defined. Here are the verses that are mentioned in the Sons of Perdition entry you posted.


None of them is lost but the son of perdition:John 17:12;

It is impossible to renew them again unto repentance:Heb. 6:4–6; ( Heb. 10:26–29; )

Mercy hath no claim on that man and his final doom is never-ending torment:Mosiah 2:36–39;

He is as though there was no redemption made:Mosiah 16:5;

Those who deny Christ’s miracles to get gain shall become like the son of perdition:3 Ne. 29:7;

They will receive no forgiveness in this world or the next: D&C 76:30–34; ( D&C 84:41; D&C 132:27; )

They are the only ones who will not be redeemed from the second death: D&C 76:34–48;

Sons of perdition deny the Holy Spirit after receiving it: D&C 76:35;

Sons of perdition deny the Son after the Father has revealed him: D&C 76:43;



:)
 
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Rescued One

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Book of Mormon, Alma

Chapter 40

Christ brings to pass the resurrection of all men—The righteous dead go to paradise and the wicked to outer darkness to await the day of their resurrection—All things will be restored to their proper and perfect frame in the Resurrection. About 74 B.C.

Only two divisions are mentioned here as in the Bible: the righteous and the wicked.
 
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Book of Mormon, Alma

Chapter 40

Christ brings to pass the resurrection of all men—The righteous dead go to paradise and the wicked to outer darkness to await the day of their resurrection—All things will be restored to their proper and perfect frame in the Resurrection. About 74 B.C.

Only two divisions are mentioned here as in the Bible: the righteous and the wicked.

It seems that there are two resurrections mentioned here. First is the general resurrection where the righteous dead go to paradise and the wicked to outer darkness. Then there is a second resurrection of the wicked, because they are waiting in the outer darkness for the day of their resurrection.

This seems impossible. How many times can a dead person come to life and regain their body? Do the wicked die again so they can have yet another resurrection?
 
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Rescued One

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It seems that there are two resurrections mentioned here. First is the general resurrection where the righteous dead go to paradise and the wicked to outer darkness. Then there is a second resurrection of the wicked, because they are waiting in the outer darkness for the day of their resurrection.

This seems impossible. How many times can a dead person come to life and regain their body? Do the wicked die again so they can have yet another resurrection?

No, this assignment to Outer Darkness is temporary and it is before the resurrection. Their resurrection takes place after the Millennium, I believe. I'll go have some coffee and look it up for you.
 
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drstevej

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We have frequent power outages. This solved them...
generac-generator.jpg


I'm wondering if the Outer Darkness is due to Entergy providing the power service?
 
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Ran77

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Book of Mormon, Alma

Chapter 40

Christ brings to pass the resurrection of all men—The righteous dead go to paradise and the wicked to outer darkness to await the day of their resurrection—All things will be restored to their proper and perfect frame in the Resurrection. About 74 B.C.

Only two divisions are mentioned here as in the Bible: the righteous and the wicked.


This has already been discussed on this thread. Outer Darkness is used to describe two seperate places in the afterlife. The first being what most LDS today call Spirit Prison. The other being a final destination of darkness after judgment. The above is speaking of Spirit Prison as can be easily determined by the fact that it exists for them until the day of resurrection.



:)
 
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Rescued One

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This has already been discussed on this thread. Outer Darkness is used to describe two seperate places in the afterlife. The first being what most LDS today call Spirit Prison. The other being a final destination of darkness after judgment. The above is speaking of Spirit Prison as can be easily determined by the fact that it exists for them until the day of resurrection.

Show us the source of information that gives actual locations.

Alma, Chapter 40

11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.

12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.

13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.


14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this estate, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

15 Now, there are some that have understood that this state of happiness and this state of misery of the soul, before the resurrection, was a first resurrection. Yea, I admit it may be termed a resurrection, the raising of the spirit or the soul and their consignation to happiness or misery, according to the words which have been spoken.

16 And behold, again it hath been spoken, that there is a first resurrection, a resurrection of all those who have been, or who are, or who shall be, down to the resurrection of Christ from the dead.

17 Now, we do not suppose that this first resurrection, which is spoken of in this manner, can be the resurrection of the souls and their consignation to happiness or misery. Ye cannot suppose that this is what it meaneth.

18 Behold, I say unto you, Nay; but it meaneth the reuniting of the soul with the body, of those from the days of Adam down to the resurrection of Christ.

19 Now, whether the souls and the bodies of those of whom has been spoken shall all be reunited at once, the wicked as well as the righteous, I do not say; let it suffice, that I say that they all come forth; or in other words, their resurrection cometh to pass before the resurrection of those who die after the resurrection of Christ.

20 Now, my son, I do not say that their resurrection cometh at the resurrection of Christ; but behold, I give it as my opinion, that the souls and the bodies are reunited, of the righteous, at the resurrection of Christ, and his ascension into heaven.

21 But whether it be at his resurrection or after, I do not say; but this much I say, that there is a space between death and the resurrection of the body, and a state of the soul in happiness or in misery until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth, and be reunited, both soul and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works.

22 Yea, this bringeth about the restoration of those things of which has been spoken by the mouths of the prophets.

23 The soul shall be restored to the body, and the body to the soul; yea, and every limb and joint shall be restored to its body; yea, even a hair of the head shall not be lost; but all things shall be restored to their proper and perfect frame.

24 And now, my son, this is the restoration of which has been spoken by the mouths of the prophets—

25 And then shall the righteous shine forth in the kingdom of God.

26 But behold, an awful death cometh upon the wicked; for they die as to things pertaining to things of righteousness; for they are unclean, and no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of God; but they are cast out, and consigned to partake of the fruits of their labors or their works, which have been evil; and they drink the dregs of a bitter cup.


And who are the wicked?

SORROW IN RESURRECTION IF NO ETERNAL MARRIAGE.
These young people who seem to be so happy now, when they rise in the resurrection-and find themselves in the condition in which they will find themselves-then there will be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and bitterness of soul; and they have p. 3:
brought it upon themselves because of their lack of faith and understanding of the gospel, and from, I am sorry to say, the encouragement they have received many times from their own parents….
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:60

UNWORTHY NOT TO GO TO TEMPLE.
Of course there are people who are not worthy to go to the temple, and therefore should not go to the temple. No one should go to the temple except those who are worthy, as the Lord has said, "who [have] overcome by faith," and are cleansed and are just and true. Then they can go to the temple. If they are unclean, if they lack the faith, they had better stay out until they get the faith and are clean.
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:61

So, do you, Ran, believe that there is weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth in both the Spirit Prison and in Outer Darkness?


Do you also believe that Spirit Prison can be referred to as Outer Darkness?
 
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Ran77

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Show us the source of information that gives actual locations.

Feel free to read the thread for that information. I don't see a need for me to go over it twice.


So, do you, Ran, believe that there is weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth in both the Spirit Prison and in Outer Darkness?

It isn't about what I believe. I have been posting material that covers the LDS doctrines on this matter.


Do you also believe that Spirit Prison can be referred to as Outer Darkness?

That also has already been answered - twice in fact.


:)
 
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