Outer Darkness (LDS Version)

[jackcv]

I guess someone needs to respond to Der Alter's 27 Oct 2013.

A Marvelous Work and a Wonder is a marvelous book, we're delighted that you have it. As noted, it was the basis for our missionary teaching to the world for many years. It is a great read, sound doctrine. Apostle Legrande Richards was one of the most beloved speakers in the Church for many years.

The Doctrine and Covenants is one of our books of revealed scripture, like the Holy Bible, but comprised of revelations received by latter-day prophets. It was the genesis of my beginning to seek after the gift of the Holy Ghost. The Book of Mormon, being ancient scripture, is more like the Bible, so it is easier for Bible-loving people to use it as a tool to investigate the Savior's Restored Church. It also contains God's promise that the Holy Ghost will testify personally of it's veracity to an honest seeker of truth who:

1. Receives (i.e. welcomes, embraces) the book
2. Ask's God, in the service and for the glory of Jesus Christ, whether it is not true
3. with a sincere heart, really wanting to know, for Christ's sake
4. with real intent to do what our Father in heaven tells one to do
5. having faith in Christ, which means past obedience and fixed determination to endure in continuing obedience to His commandments, after the style and order of Jesus Christ, for His purposes and His sake.

The Doctrine and Covenants is somewhat more meaty, you might say, but I suggest that the same promise is operative, if one fulfills all 5 of the above prerequisites.


In any case, as a lifetime, active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I have never heard anyone in our Church at any level suggest that we don't want people to read these books. The Prophet Joseph stated that “After all that has been said, [our] greatest and most important duty is to preach the Gospel.”



One of the primary mandates of the Lord's Church today is to prepare the world for His imminent Second Coming. Having those books in your hands is part of your preparation for that day which will be great for some, terrible for others. God bless you.

 

[drstevej]

In any case, as a lifetime, active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I have never heard anyone in our Church at any level suggest that we don't want people to read these books.

Years ago, pre internet, I decided to get a copy of Doctrine and Covenants. So I looked up the local stake phone number and called and asked if they had a copy for purchase. The person asked, "Do you want us to send missionaries to visit you?" I said, "No, they never answer my questions very well. Can I buy a copy of D&C?" I was told they only had a large print version. I said, "Fine."

I went to the place (a small office suite) and walked in and said, "I am the person who want to buy Doctrines and Covenants." After I paid him he asked, "Why do you want to buy this?" I responded, "To read it." He then, said, " I hope you do not want to just ridicule this book." I replied, "I plan to read it, compare it with the Bible and let the chips fall where they may."

Now, at the time the LDS were advertising for a free BoM on TV. I called the toll free number and asked for a copy of D&C and was told they do not give out the D&C.

After I read the D&C I understood the reticence. Unlike your response, I found it loaded with "convenient revelations." (ex. 132:54)

And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

 

[Phantasman]

Years ago, pre internet, I decided to get a copy of Doctrine and Covenants. So I looked up the local stake phone number and called and asked if they had a copy for purchase. The person asked, "Do you want us to send missionaries to visit you?" I said, "No, they never answer my questions very well. Can I buy a copy of D&C?" I was told they only had a large print version. I said, "Fine."

I went to the place (a small office suite) and walked in and said, "I am the person who want to buy Doctrines and Covenants." After I paid him he asked, "Why do you want to buy this?" I responded, "To read it." He then, said, " I hope you do not want to just ridicule this book." I replied, "I plan to read it, compare it with the Bible and let the chips fall where they may."

Now, at the time the LDS were advertising for a free BoM on TV. I called the toll free number and asked for a copy of D&C and was told they do not give out the D&C.

After I read the D&C I understood the reticence. Unlike your response, I found it loaded with "convenient revelations." (ex. 132:54)

I love my LDS friends. But this D&C excerpt, and some that I read before, sounds almost OTish.

Without trying to sound too demeaning, while the BoM does have some information I find interesting, and Joseph Smith did seem to start off on a track to gain knowledge, I am wondering if he didn't become influenced by (my belief) the demiurge, after performing the better part of his calling.

I'm sure I'm gonna get both sides criticizing me now. But I really believe once God gives truth, the opposing force is there to IMMEDIATELY try to damage or confuse it at best. After all, it is their very reason for believing the catholics were subject to the same forces.

They can be sneaky.

 

[jackcv]

DrStevej
Thesaurus: reticence noun - silence, reserve, restraint, quietness, secretiveness, tacitunity, uncommunicativeness, unforthcomingness

Is that what you really meant? It does not describe your story. Seems like sort of an off-target slurr.

 

[drstevej]

I meant reticence with this meaning:

2. The state or quality of being reluctant

The LDS were reticent to sell the D&C to me.

 

[jackcv]

That's not what you originally said, drstevej, and it is out of character for the members of our church, not to mention out of harmony with the teachings of our leaders.

 

[MormonFriend]

I apologize for not making myself clearer. I was referring to the murderers in the quote from Brigham Young. It is these murderers which, if I understand him correctly, will be in hell and will suffer eternal torment (until the last farthing is paid). There is no indication in that statement of any possibility of their repenting or of them being in Spirit Prison. Do you also see it that way for these individuals?

Sorry I missed this, glad I got back to it.

Joseph Smith's quote was about murders and B.Y. spoke of violation of virtue.

Rejoice, O Israel! Your friends who have been murdered for the truth's sake in the persecutions shall triumph gloriously in the celestial world, while their murderers shall welter for ages in torment, even until they shall have paid the uttermost farthing. I say this for the benefit of strangers.
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 359

Any man who humbles a daughter of Eve to rob her of her virtue, and cast her off dishonored and defiled, is her destroyer, and is responsible to God for the deed. If the refined Christian society of the nineteenth century will tolerate such a crime, God will not; but he will call the perpetrator to an account. He will be damned; in hell he will lift up his eyes, being in torment, until he has paid the uttermost farthing, and made a full atonement for his sins.
Brigham Young, JD 11:268

In either case,what I said before has application. Both indicate that their suffering will endure until they pay the full price of their sins. This would indicate that they did not repent in this life. Murder may be an infraction that cannot be fully forgiven in this life, yet much progress via remorse, sorrow, humility etc can be experienced in this life. It sounds like Joseph Smith was referring to individuals that had no remorse or any effort to repent of their murder. But hope is always there if the perpetrator desires it. God's love for all is never changing. I know that God sorrows for those who will not repent as much as any parent (more so actually) who losses a child.

Suffering is a process that can produce and/or perfect humility. The "utmost farthing" of suffering is, to me, the highest temperature it takes for the Refiner to melt the ore, so that the dross floats to the top and can be extracted from the gold If a person will not let go of his pride, he is not compelled to do so. The suffering that extracts pride is always a gift of God. To deny this gift would, as I understand it, only leave the option to be excluded even from the lowest of the glories of heaven. That would equate to "outer darkness" where there is no light of glory, and suffering would not only be worse, but eternal. I see that as returning to the chaotic state, where "matter unorganized" was gathered in the first place, and which was used in the creation of this earth for us to dwell on and learn. I keep in mind that in LDS doctrine, all spirit is matter, but more refined and only discernible by pure eyes.

Doctrine and Covenants 131:7
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

This discussion is far beyond the milk, and true Christian doctrine well explains in biblical verses that many things are not going to be understood until the basics are first learned and accepted. But the bottom line is that there is always the availability (not possibility) of repentance. How much suffering one endures is simply commensurate to the level of pride he has.

 

[Phantasman]

This discussion is far beyond the milk, and true Christian doctrine well explains in biblical verses that many things are not going to be understood until the basics are first learned and accepted. But the bottom line is that there is always the availability (not possibility) of repentance. How much suffering one endures is simply commensurate to the level of pride he has.

This is where I split. JS could not have known the truth on what "matter" and "spirit" is. If the idea of the Demiurge (creator God) is correct, he was definitely influenced by it.

Matter decays, pure or not. It is made up of "moving" parts subject to friction (wear). Matter is subject to time because of this. Christ taught the Father was spirit.

"Time was not apportioned to him, since he does not receive anything from another, for it would be received on loan."-Secret John

Whether one believes John or not, JS has God under laws of something given on loan (matter, time) when God is scripturally above those things.

"He is not someone among (other) beings, rather he is far superior. Not that he is (simply) superior, but his essence does not partake in the aeons nor in time." -Secret John

"He is pure, immeasurable mind. He is an aeon-giving aeon. He is life-giving life. He is a blessedness-giving blessed one. He is knowledge-giving knowledge. He is goodness-giving goodness. He is mercy and redemption-giving mercy. He is grace-giving grace, not because he possesses it, but because he gives the immeasurable, incomprehensible light."-Secret John

The aeons are the areas JS misses. While we are in a material aeon, it is limited in many ways. Spirit is within it's aeon. JS may have tried to conceive it, maybe falling short. God is beyond the aeons. He gives them. Creates them. Is not under any laws established within them.

Who knows how many aeons have been created by God (or even eliminated by him) in his light in eternity. But I don't believe men see anything close to what Christ see's in the Father. Including JS.