Our view of heaven

[Vance]

In ancient times, heaven was thought to be just "up there", just beyond the sky, somewhere we could get to if you could fly high enough. Or, based on some ancient Jewish thought, a series of levels up above the lower levels of our earth and sky. But still "up there". And Scripture was written from this perspective. It talks about going "up" to heaven, and Hell is going "down", deep into the earth. Scripture after Scripture uses this language, which was both a reflection of the current "science" and became such a strong and evocative presentation that it still is our basic default for discussion.

Now, most Christians, Jews and Muslims today do not really think heaven is up in the sky, or even out in space. We do not think heaven is "head toward alpha centuari, then take a left at the third star". We do not believe we could get there with the right space ship. We realize that heaven is a place that is separate from our current physical reality, a real and physical place, but not within our existing universe. And we don't believe that Hell is really down in the depths of our current earth (although it would be hot enough!), and that Satan is really in a pool of magma a few miles underground. Hell is a real place, but not one we could drill down and find.

But this is a fairly new perspective, and one that has kind of snuck up on us without much fanfare. We quite easily, even subconsciously, reassessed all those myriad of Scriptures that were based on, and reinforced, the ancient perspective, and simply ditched the literal interpretation. For some reason, it did not even cause a ripple that I have seen, as contrasted with the geocentrism fiasco, in which it took hundreds of years, some claims of heresy and a lot of angst, before we shifted our collective interpretation from literal to figurative on that issue.

The sad situation is that the age of the earth and evolutionary development are taking the "heresy and angst" route to acceptance rather than the "ah, well then, it must be figurative" approach we adopted with heaven. The end result will be the same, we will still end up with a full acceptance of the evidence from God's Creation and simply realize that our literal/historical reading was incorrect, but it is a crying shame we have to take this long, damaging road to get there.

 

[Maccie]

Well said, Vance!

Sometimes I favour a sort of 'parallel universe' of heaven. There are very occasionally times when we feel we could almost 'break through' into heaven, that it is very close. Which sort of goes along with my theory. Though I hasten to add I am not that sort of scientist, so can't put any data to go with my theory!

 

[Vance]

Personally, I don't think our human minds can really grasp the concept of what Heaven really is, since it is outside of our time/space existence which bounds our thinking. What is interesting is how we made this transition from literal to non-literal without so little problem.

 

[Smidlee]

Funny, I don't know today much more about heaven or hell than those in scriptures. I really don't know if hell not in the center of this earth waiting until judgement day. Also Paul wrote about the third heaven so he would have better knowledge than anyone on Earth today. 2 Corinthians 12:2 " I knew a man in Christ above 14 years ago, (whether in the body,I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven. [obvously Paul knew there was 3 heavens also] then paul in the next verse repeat he didn't know if he was in body or not.
Maybe someone has some kind of inside connection with heaven/hell I don't have but honestly all I know about these places is what's in the scriptures.

 

[TwinCrier]

Vance, do you believe heaven and/or hell are actual physical places, or are they just a state of consciousness?

 

[seebs]

I have no idea what Heaven is, nor do I see any way I could form a theory with certainty.

 

[Vance]

Oh, I believe Heaven and Hell are VERY real places, as described in Scripture. But do YOU think that Heaven and Hell are actually within our physical universe? Somewhere actually taking up space between the stars? Or that Hell is actually in the bowels of our earth?

I honestly did not think that anyone still thought that way. Maybe I was mistaken.

 

[TwinCrier]

Since I cannot comprehend or define "our physical universe" I cannot say. I do believe both are physical places, places to which the human soul physically go to. Since the core of the Earth in many miles deep under the surface and thousands of degrees I'm afraid I can't investigate it from a scientific standpoint so I will just have to rely on the bible.
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matthew 12:40

What do these words Christ spoke mean to you?

 

[Vance]

That the body of Jesus was buried and arose three days later.

Honestly, though, I have never actually talked to someone who believed that Heaven and Hell were places within our own space/time such that, with the ability to fly through space, we could actually travel there and find Heaven. Or, with the ability to dig deep enough, we could find Hell.

Actual physical location? Sure. But off between those two stars up there?

BTW, the human soul can not "physically" go anywhere, since it is not physical. But it can go to a physical place.

 

[TwinCrier]

LOL, grammarical error. I should have said actually, not "physically." So where did Christ 'actually' go while His physical body was in the grave?

 

[Vance]

His body did not physically go anywhere that I have ever heard. I know that He went to Hell during that time, but I have never heard anyone assert that He went there in His physical body. Regardless, that verse is simply referring to the fact that He was buried and rose again three days later.

But, really, honestly and truly, do you think that Heaven can actually be "up there" somewhere, in space?

Here are some descriptions of the “nature of heaven” I found:

“Heaven is not limited by the normal boundaries of time and space. Scripture clearly teaches that heaven is a real place that can be seen and touched and inhabited by beings with material bodies. We affirm that truth unequivocally.

But Scripture also reveals heaven as a realm not confined to an area delimited by height, width, and breadth. Heaven seems to span all those dimensions-and more. In Christ's message to the Philadelphian church, for example, He speaks of the eternal realm as "New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God" (Rev. 3:12). In the closing chapters of Scripture, the apostle John speaks of "the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God" (Rev. 21:10).

The New Heaven and New Earth are seen blending together in a great kingdom that incorporates both realms. The paradise of eternity is thus revealed as a magnificent kingdom where both heaven and earth unite in a glory that surpasses the limits of the human imagination and the boundaries of earthly dimensions.

So heaven is not confined to one locality marked off by boundaries that can be seen or measured. It transcends the confines of time/space dimensions. Perhaps that is part of what Scripture means when it states that God inhabits eternity (Isa. 57:15). His dwelling place—heaven—is not subject to the normal limitations of finite dimensions.

We don't need to speculate about how this can be; it is sufficient to note that this is how Scripture describes heaven. It is a real place where people with physical bodies will dwell in God's presence for all eternity; and it is also a realm that surpasses our finite concept of what a "place" is.”

“Q: "Is there really a heaven? What is heaven like and where is it? Will I get to see all my family and friends that are gone?"
our A: Yes, there really is a heaven according to the Bible. The current heaven is of a different dimension and cannot be seen by man unless God reveals it, which He has done on several occasions to His prophets (Isaiah 6; Ezekiel 1; Daniel 7:9-10; 2Corinthians 12:1-4; Revelation 1, 4-5). . . .”

 

[Vance]

Bump since this subject has come up again . . .

 

[keyarch]

Vance]Now, most Christians, Jews and Muslims today do not really think heaven is up in the sky, or even out in space. We do not think heaven is "head toward alpha centuari, then take a left at the third star". We do not believe we could get there with the right space ship. We realize that heaven is a place that is separate from our current physical reality, a real and physical place, but not within our existing universe. And we don't believe that Hell is really down in the depths of our current earth (although it would be hot enough!), and that Satan is really in a pool of magma a few miles underground. Hell is a real place, but not one we could drill down and find..

Most? Really? Has there been any statical analysis?

Heaven:

1. The First level (<y]m*v))*))) was made when God divided the waters. This was the firmament between the waters of the deep and the thick cloud layer that covered it. So the first level stops at the bottom of the clouds, and there is still some atmosphere above that which birds can fly. Precipitation comes from the next level up.

2. The Second level .(<y]m^V*h) is the firmament which the sun and moon were set and which also contains stars. This level starts at the bottom of the clouds and extends to some boundary known to God (Psalms 19:6).

3. The Third level is exposed in 2 Cor 12:2, Ps 68:33, Ps 148:4.

So, “Heaven” is within our existing universe. “Hell” is separation from God, and I expect there are different physical realities of that existence, depending on such things as what type of being you are (human, fallen angel etc.).

 

[Vance]

Keyarch, there is a distinction between "the heavens" which are the areas above our heads, and "Heaven" the place we go when we die, paradise. Do you think that the place we go when we die, the place where God "resides", is somewhere up in space? Somewhere "up there" actually taking up physical space? I guess you could ask is Heaven in the heavens?

 

[keyarch]

Keyarch, there is a distinction between "the heavens" which are the areas above our heads, and "Heaven" the place we go when we die, paradise. Do you think that the place we go when we die, the place where God "resides", is somewhere up in space? Somewhere "up there" actually taking up physical space? I guess you could ask is Heaven in the heavens?

You got me thinking Vance. I derived my definitions of Heaven from the Old Testament, yet I can't find anything relating to eternal life in Heaven there. I know it's a strong theme in the New Testament, but I will have to do more study to determine the actual "place" etc. that you have brought up.
Thank you for giving me something to chew on. I'd like to be sure where my mom just went.
God Bless.

 

[SBG]

Here is Paul's account of heaven:

2 Corinthians 12:2-4
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know–God knows. 3And I know that this man–whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows– 4was caught up to paradise.

It seems the third heaven is paradise and paradise is the heaven. Now, if heaven is not anywhere - spiritually or physically - within our universe, why does Paul refer to it as the third heaven, instead of paradise? Simple, because it is apart of this universe. We can't see it, we can't touch it, we can't get to it, but it is there.

And when Christ ascended to heaven, why did He ascend and not just disappear if heaven is not within the universe?

The simple fact is that only ignorance will rule out that which it doesn't know.

 

[Vance]

Keyarch, this is actually a VERY interesting, and rarely studied, issue. We hear about God in heaven, Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father in heaven, etc, and we hear about someone being seen "in paradise" in the OT, but it is all very unclear. We also have to factor in the "new heaven and new earth" concepts. Definitely worthy of further study.

 

[keyarch]

Keyarch, this is actually a VERY interesting, and rarely studied, issue. We hear about God in heaven, Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father in heaven, etc, and we hear about someone being seen "in paradise" in the OT, but it is all very unclear. We also have to factor in the "new heaven and new earth" concepts. Definitely worthy of further study.

Even though we have a different view of origins, this is an area that I think I can agree with you on. It may take some time to figure this out.
I think the "New Heaven" has to do with the lower heaven (within our atmosphere). I don't think (based on my study of the Hebrew words for heaven) that the whole universe will be destroyed. I think that it's merely our globe that will be melted and remade.

 

[Vance]

NT Wright, one of our greatest living theologians (and considered either conservative or liberal, depending on where you are in the spectrum) actually sees the "new earth" as God bringing His power to bear in righteousness on THIS earth, as described in the Lord's Prayer, thy Kingdom come ON EARTH as it is in Heaven. That coming Kingdom on this earth will bring about the "new" earth. I have not worked through all the implications of this, but it is an interesting viewpoint.

 

[gluadys]

NT Wright, one of our greatest living theologians (and considered either conservative or liberal, depending on where you are in the spectrum) actually sees the "new earth" as God bringing His power to bear in righteousness on THIS earth, as described in the Lord's Prayer, thy Kingdom come ON EARTH as it is in Heaven. That coming Kingdom on this earth will bring about the "new" earth. I have not worked through all the implications of this, but it is an interesting viewpoint.

That has long been my perspective. I find myself increasingly averse to language that speaks of us "going" to Heaven. I find little if any biblical support for the idea that we will leave earth and go somewhere else. What I do find is the reference in the Lord's prayer, the vision of Isaiah, and the wonderful vision of John watching the heavenly Jerusalem descending *to* earth. There is a parable of the last judgment as well (the wheat and the tares I think) where Jesus speaks of the angels taking away the wicked while the righteous then shine as the sun in the kingdom. There is no suggestion that the righteous are removed, but rather that the wicked are removed from them.

I also think this fits in with the references to the bonding between humanity and the natural world, such as Paul's statement in Romans. I am fully convinced that it is not God's intention to save humanity apart from the salvation (healing?) of all of creation.

So I don't like "going to heaven" language because it seems to separate us from the earth we have been made to inhabit and to set up a dualistic appraisal of soul vs body that strikes me as more gnostic than Christian.

I would like to take the time to read more on Orthodox theology on this, because it seems to take a similar path.