Our salvation is indeed conditional....

[Gideons300]

This ought to get the bees buzzing, LOL. Bare with me here.....

We have been taught that our salvation is free, no conditions, correct? But is that belief scriptural? Certainly, there is no "work" that we can do to deserve it or maintain it. If that were the case, woe be unto us. Woe be unto ME!

But there is no doubt that if we open up the New Testament, there is irrefutable evidence that there are indeed conditions to our being saved in the end. Our minds want to rail out against this concept, for if it is true, the weight that was lifted off our shoulders begins to slip back on them, and fear drives out what little true joy we possess. I understand that.

Let's look at one particularly enlightening verse of scripture. It is Romans 8:13. Here Paul tells us that if we continue to sow to the flesh, we will of the flesh reap corruption, BUT, if we through the Spirit, do mortify the deeds of the body, we shall live.

So the question of the hour is..... how is our mortifying the deeds of our fleshly nature progressing? If we are honest, the truth is most of us have been taught that in the end it is impossible because "we are only human". And because we have accepted this as truth, eventually we have reduced our Christianity to just "Go to church, tithe, read your Bible (even that is becoming optional), pray, and do the best you can with intermittent "slips", of course. Sound familiar?

But the verse we read is quite clear, which ought to be making us really uncomfortable. Sadly, for the most part, we have fallen into a state of lukewarmness, simply because we have not been taught how to, through the Spirit, actually succeed in mortifying and escaping the grip of the sins that bind us. Heck, we have pretty much believed such a walk is totally impossible, haven't we? Can I bring you some good news? It is not only possible to walk with those sins totally defeated, it is a sure thing to even the weakest ones among us!

God is even now opening our eyes to the second half of the gospel, the half that has been by and large hidden from His church for 1900 years. We all know the first half..... forgiveness.... but there is more. He promises to forgive us AND cleanse us, change us from old natured sinner to new natured saint. But it is not automatic. If so, we would all be transformed already into victorious overcomers, amen?

So what is the answer? Faith, just as in the first part, of course. Always faith. But in order for our faith to work, we first have to hunger for victory, and be sick to death of always being ruled over by our lower nature. Our hearts must break not only for our sin but even more for our acceptance of defeat in our lives, where our repentance is shallow and not at all heart felt. This is the "hating our life" that Jesus told us about. Tears are going to be shed for many to get there, but praise God, I can promise you this. If we seek Him AND His righteousness, and be like the widow woman who refused to take no for an answer, I guarantee that He will not fail us. He tells us "Open your mouth wide and I will fill it." How is your appetite?

Blessings,

Gids

 

[jiminpa]

Thank you! I find your posts very inspiring.

 

[JLB777]

We have been taught that our salvation is free, no conditions, correct? But is that belief scriptural?

No!

But there is no doubt that if we open up the New Testament, there is irrefutable evidence that there are indeed conditions to our being saved in the end.

Yes!

Let's look at one particularly enlightening verse of scripture. It is Romans 8:13. Here Paul tells us that if we continue to sow to the flesh, we will of the flesh reap corruption, BUT, if we through the Spirit, do mortify the deeds of the body, we shall live.

Amen.


Let the "buzzin" commence.


JLB

 

[Gideons300]

No!




Yes!





Amen.


Let the "buzzin" commence.


JLB

Thank you both for the comments. We have seen in the church in this last decade a huge rise in belief in a grace that tells us all is well with our souls no matter how we live, how we act, or whether or not we listen and respond when we are corrected by the Holy Spirit.

Grabbing hold of individual scriptures while totally ignoring others that are exhortation, rebuke, correcation or instruction in righteousness is a dangerous thing to do. May God open our eyes to the fact that our churches have now become businesses, with budgets that must be adhered to.

Because we have all grown comfortable in a half gospel where there is no mention of our call to vigilance, or to singleness of eye, even well meaning pastors now find themselves in a huge predicament. If.they begin to preach the gospel that has two edges, both the goodness and the severity of God, benefits and responsibilities, there can be no doubt that many tithes will simply move along to another church where their ears can continue to be tickled. This makes the budget unattainable, and since more often than not, churches are mortgaged in order to keep up with the Jones's of the church world, the end will not be pretty. May God bless the few pastors who care enough to preach the word..... all of it.... no matter the cost, because the souls of those who listen are in their care and they will be held accountable for them.

Will the church structure as we know it be able to adapt as God begins opening eyes to our call to walk in single eyes purity before Him? Perhaps, but it will take a miracle. Either way, if (or is it when?) the financial institutions fail, empty church buildings will outnumber active ones. How will what we know as church fare when ministers salaries cease, programs disappear, and services will be impossible? Perhaps we can get back to service rather than services? I pray so.

I pray for all who read posts like this when discussing the truths that our flesh finds unpalatable, and that they realize the problem is with our flesh, not with the seemingly hard truths of the gospel. As a personal testimony, I have found after 9 years of walking with my shield of faith up as a new man, not bringing but KEEPING my body under, that my peace is exponentially higher, as is my joy. I would not go backwards for anything. The "hard thing" Jesus asks us to do are in truth things He plants in us to do, and the yoke we are asked to wear is indeed not only an easy one, but one we never want to escape from once we see the full benefits of walking with our old nature reckoned dead.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[Kenny'sID]

And because we have accepted this as truth, eventually we have reduced our Christianity to just "Go to church, tithe, read your Bible (even that is becoming optional), pray, and do the best you can with intermittent "slips", of course. Sound familiar?

For the most part I agree with you, and maybe fully but if you mean by the preceding in bold, we aren't to have intermittent slips or we won't make it, then I disagree, at least with that part.

We are to pray..."Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us". Had trespasses not been expected of us by Christ, he would never have instructed us to pray along those lines so, "do the best we can with intermittent slips" and ask forgiveness for those slips would be my way of looking at this.

Slip happens.

 

[JackRT]

Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 37 "Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 "The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ 41 "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ 44 "They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 "He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

What I immediately notice here is the total lack of "correct belief" or "faith". I do not even notice any reference to "forgiveness". There is a condition that is also mentioned in the Lord's Prayer. It is "Forgive us a trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us".

 

[Winken]

@Gideons300......

You write well. Your posts are clearly understandable. The points in which you falter are these:

.....We have been taught that our salvation is free, no conditions, correct? But is that belief scriptural?

God's Amazing Gift of Salvation by Grace through Faith is ours upon our confession (Romans 10:8-13). There are no attachments to that insofar as salvation is concerned. The one thing we must do as Christians is advance the cause of Christ through witnessing to others about Salvation by Grace through Faith, acknowledging that HE is our sustainer, and not the other way around.

.....a huge rise in belief in a grace that tells us all is well with our souls no matter how we live, how we act, or whether or not we listen and respond when we are corrected by the Holy Spirit.

An authentic Believer is not going to endorse that. I've never met a Christian who has. We may falter, but HE will never fail. 1 John 1:9 is His promise, among many others.

 

[Kenny'sID]

What I immediately notice here is the total lack of "correct belief" or "faith". I do not even notice any reference to "forgiveness".

I'm not quite sure of your point? I've always seen that set of scripture, as saying these are things we must do, they didn't and now they're outta here. But not certain about the part where you see no reference to forgiveness.

 

[JackRT]

I'm not quite sure of your point? I've always seen that set of scripture, as saying these are things we must do, they didn't and now they're outta here. But not certain about the part where you see no reference to forgiveness.

Forgiveness is certainly present in the Lord's Prayer but not in Matthew 25.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Forgiveness is certainly present in the Lord's Prayer but not in Matthew 25.

I don't know why it would be mentioned there, as the setting its a time where it's too late for forgiveness.

Still not making the connection, but, oh well...

 

[Gideons300]

@Gideons300......

You write well. Your posts are clearly understandable. The points in which you falter are these:

.....We have been taught that our salvation is free, no conditions, correct? But is that belief scriptural?

God's Amazing Gift of Salvation by Grace through Faith is ours upon our confession (Romans 10:8-13). There are no attachments to that insofar as salvation is concerned. The one thing we must do as Christians is advance the cause of Christ through witnessing to others about Salvation by Grace through Faith, acknowledging that HE is our sustainer, and not the other way around.

.....a huge rise in belief in a grace that tells us all is well with our souls no matter how we live, how we act, or whether or not we listen and respond when we are corrected by the Holy Spirit.

An authentic Believer is not going to endorse that. I've never met a Christian who has. We may falter, but HE will never fail. 1 John 1:9 is His promise, among many others.

Thanks for writing. Let me see if I can clarify some of the issues you brought up.

As to whether confession that Jesus is Lord, I agree that this is true.....IF we understand that our salvation is an exchange.... our life for His in us. This is why Jesus said that we must count the cost. This is why we are asked to give up all our pearls in order to gain the one of great price. If we take just the scripture you mentioned, it would appear at first glance that this is true. But when balanced with scriptures to make our calling and election sure, we see that our salvation is a relationship, living, breathing and growing. Paul said that he kept his body under, lest having preached to others, he himself might become a castaway. In the parable of the talents, the unprofitable servant was lost in the end, and what he had been given was taken away from him. We are told that we can indeed have our names blotted out of the book of life. We are shown that good seed can actually sprout to newness of life, and yet love for this world, or shallowness of heart can disqualify us.

Believing IN Jesus is not believing ON Him. We must be careful to understand the difference.

On the second point, that no true believer is going to endorse such a take on willful sin, I might agree. However, in practice, I think the balance shifts dramatically. How many believers do you think there are living with their mate, yet unmarried? How many have given into a sin for so long that there is no more fight against it? There is afar cry between falling into sin and hating it, longing to be freed from its grasp, and willful sin, where we know something is wrong, the Spirit has convicted us, and yet we refuse to move, or repent and turn from it. Is this not exactly what was shared. We have arrived at a grace that allows US to decide what we want to yield to Christ and what we refuse to give up. How many believers are so convinced of God's grace that even willful sin is covered, even though we are very clearly told that it is not.

The vast majority of believers are living in Romans 7, not Romans 8, but how many of them hate it there and see themselves as wretched men in desperate need of a deliverer?

When was the last time any of us heard a sermon on the scripture from Luke 19, concerning the parable of the talents? The wicked servant had just had what he had been entrusted with taken away, and then the master said these words;

"Then bring ALL THOSE who would not have me to reign over them, and slay them before me."

The truth is, true faith is made possible by true surrender, but our entire concept of salvation is far, far from such a concept. Jesus asked a rhetorical question to His followers.

"How come you believe which receive honor one of another and do not seek for that honor which comes from God alone?" The answer is.....you can't. The sad part is, by not fully surrendering, we are robbing ourselves of what such a salvation offers us...... abiding in the vine where we do not commit the lusts of the flesh..... because Jesus-keeps us from falling, causing us to walk in obedience as true overcomers of the world, the flesh, and the devil. But praise God, the times, they are a'changin'.

I hope this clarifies a bit..l

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[Gabriel Anton]

This ought to get the bees buzzing, LOL. Bare with me here.....

We have been taught that our salvation is free, no conditions, correct? But is that belief scriptural? Certainly, there is no "work" that we can do to deserve it or maintain it. If that were the case, woe be unto us. Woe be unto ME!

But there is no doubt that if we open up the New Testament, there is irrefutable evidence that there are indeed conditions to our being saved in the end. Our minds want to rail out against this concept, for if it is true, the weight that was lifted off our shoulders begins to slip back on them, and fear drives out what little true joy we possess. I understand that.

Let's look at one particularly enlightening verse of scripture. It is Romans 8:13. Here Paul tells us that if we continue to sow to the flesh, we will of the flesh reap corruption, BUT, if we through the Spirit, do mortify the deeds of the body, we shall live.

So the question of the hour is..... how is our mortifying the deeds of our fleshly nature progressing? If we are honest, the truth is most of us have been taught that in the end it is impossible because "we are only human". And because we have accepted this as truth, eventually we have reduced our Christianity to just "Go to church, tithe, read your Bible (even that is becoming optional), pray, and do the best you can with intermittent "slips", of course. Sound familiar?

But the verse we read is quite clear, which ought to be making us really uncomfortable. Sadly, for the most part, we have fallen into a state of lukewarmness, simply because we have not been taught how to, through the Spirit, actually succeed in mortifying and escaping the grip of the sins that bind us. Heck, we have pretty much believed such a walk is totally impossible, haven't we? Can I bring you some good news? It is not only possible to walk with those sins totally defeated, it is a sure thing to even the weakest ones among us!

God is even now opening our eyes to the second half of the gospel, the half that has been by and large hidden from His church for 1900 years. We all know the first half..... forgiveness.... but there is more. He promises to forgive us AND cleanse us, change us from old natured sinner to new natured saint. But it is not automatic. If so, we would all be transformed already into victorious overcomers, amen?

So what is the answer? Faith, just as in the first part, of course. Always faith. But in order for our faith to work, we first have to hunger for victory, and be sick to death of always being ruled over by our lower nature. Our hearts must break not only for our sin but even more for our acceptance of defeat in our lives, where our repentance is shallow and not at all heart felt. This is the "hating our life" that Jesus told us about. Tears are going to be shed for many to get there, but praise God, I can promise you this. If we seek Him AND His righteousness, and be like the widow woman who refused to take no for an answer, I guarantee that He will not fail us. He tells us "Open your mouth wide and I will fill it." How is your appetite?

Blessings,

Gids

Hard Truths are hard to swallow and accept. Good stuff. God bless you.

 

[Job8]

We have seen in the church in this last decade a huge rise in belief in a grace that tells us all is well with our souls no matter how we live, how we act, or whether or not we listen and respond when we are corrected by the Holy Spirit.

Obviously that is false doctrine. So is your belief that salvation is conditional (apart from the necessity of repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ). So we have two false doctrines competing with each other, therefore they cancel each other out. The true doctrine is found in Scripture and cannot be dismissed (Titus 2:11-14):

GOD'S GRACE BRINGS SALVATION
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

THE SAVED MUST LIVE RIGHTEOUSLY
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

THE SAVED MUST EXPECT THE IMMINENT RETURN OF CHRIST FOR HIS SAINTS
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

THE SAVED HAVE BEEN REDEEMED FROM INIQUITY UNTO GOOD WORKS
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

 

[Gideons300]

Obviously that is false doctrine. So is your belief that salvation is conditional (apart from the necessity of repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ). So we have two false doctrines competing with each other, therefore they cancel each other out. The true doctrine is found in Scripture and cannot be dismissed (Titus 2:11-14):

GOD'S GRACE BRINGS SALVATION
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

THE SAVED MUST LIVE RIGHTEOUSLY
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

THE SAVED MUST EXPECT THE IMMINENT RETURN OF CHRIST FOR HIS SAINTS
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

THE SAVED HAVE BEEN REDEEMED FROM INIQUITY UNTO GOOD WORKS
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

What you do not see is that our faith towards God and our repentance is a living thing. It can grow. It can be choked out. We are told that IF we walk in the light, as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us of all unrighteousness. But what happens if we do not walk in the light? What happens if we rebuild again the things He destroyed? Conditions.

This is the alternative option, with dire consequences. We are told that continued sin hardens our hearts, and faith slowly becomes head knowledge, without us even being aware of it, the deception is that great. We are told that the cares of this world can choke our faith out. We are told that we can have a name that we live, but we are dead.

Paul told us that we are to add to our faith, through our faith, virtue, etc, and that if.... IF we do these things, we will never fall. There are over 20 clear verses in the New Testament giving us clear conditions. We recoil, because we have been taught grace is free, and not all all based upon what we do, right? But that is not correct. We had to repent and to believe with our whole hearts, correct? Do you not see that that heart set is what God continues to ask for? He asks us to walk with Him, and grow up into Him in all things. What a privilege!

We fear, because we know us, and our propensity for evil, and so we devise a salvation that gives us assurance no matter how we may stray. What we have missed, what God is even now awakening us to, is a new type of assurance. He wants us to realize we are not that same old sinner saved by grace who sometimes still wants to do bad things.It is our lack of faith that is keeping the door open for Satan. Time to shut the door.

No, brother. When we submit ourselves to God, and reckon that we are dead to sin, that we are new creatures, that we are no longer in the flesh and owe it nothing, the worry that we will go back to our old ways is dealt a death blow, and faith in who He is IN us overtakes fear that we will lose Him.

It is our God who will keep us from falling. All He asks is to yield fully and walk in the light we have, always seeking more of Christ in us.

It is time we put on our new man, the one who always takes the way of escape when we are tempted. But first, we must agree with our God that the old us is not us anymore, and when we see it is true, joy will flood into us that we did not know even existed. There is one painful step however. We must grow to hate that old man. Only then will we be able to reckon it dead.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[Job8]

But what happens if we do not walk in the light? What happens if we rebuild again the things He destroyed?

There are remedies for this in Scripture, short of loss of salvation. Untimely or premature death is connected with the sin unto death. Here is how God deals with Christians who do not walk in the light (1 Cor 11:27-32), and please note what is stated in the last verse. Ananias and Sapphira died prematurely, but did not lose their salvation:

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation [condemnation] to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. [die prematurely]

31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

 

[Gideons300]

There are remedies for this in Scripture, short of loss of salvation. Untimely or premature death is connected with the sin unto death. Here is how God deals with Christians who do not walk in the light (1 Cor 11:27-32), and please note what is stated in the last verse. Ananias and Sapphira died prematurely, but did not lose their salvation:

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation [condemnation] to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. [die prematurely]

31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

So let me ask you the jesting asked previously. If a Christian man slips when tempted and has an affair, and when chastened by the Spirit, refusing to stop, does not repent, and ignores the pleas of his wife and children, continuing in this until he dies, is this man saved in your estimation?

Thanks in advance.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[Job8]

is this man saved in your estimation?

Only God has that answer.

 

[Gabriel Anton]

. Ananias and Sapphira died prematurely, but did not lose their salvation:

That is a presumptuous statement. Those 2 were terminated to show us what not to do with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Gideons300]

Only God has that answer.

You are skirting the question. What does the Bible teach usa. Are there clear warnings that if we continue to sow to the flesh, we will of the flesh reap corruption?

You see, ultimately, our opinions must bow to God's clear word. Even if we do not like what it says, we have to trust that God knows far better than we do as to what is right.

Here is what God clearly says concerning adultery. He tells us to not be deceived, which tells us that Satan will indeed be coming to try to twist what God says. Then He says this. Neither fornicators or idolaters or adulterers shall inherit the kingdom of God.

So to say only God knows concerning this question is to say His clear warnings are not enough for us. You see, we are commanded to warn and teach all men, that those who continue to sow to their flesh will of the flesh reap corruption. We have, sadly, done the opposite.

We have been led down a path where out itching ears are scratched, where our 'frailties' are winked at. I have always said that if a man is caught in a sin, longs to be free, but simply cannot find the answer, God's grace makes a way where there is no way. BUT, if our frailties are simply our open rebellion to God dressed up to look acceptable to God, and we like our freedom to sin when we feel like it, God is not mocked. What are we told about willful sin? That if we continue to sin willfully after having received the knowledge of th truth, there remain no no more sacrifice for sin, but a fearful looking for of judgment. Do we believe it, or will we call our God a liar?

When Jesus told the parable of the men being entrusted with talents of gold, there was one man who made no gain. What was his fate? What he had been given was taken away from him. But there is more. The master was wroth, and then said this:

"Then bring ALL those who would not have me to reign over them, and slay them before me."

Ouch. This is found in Luke 19, by the way, but I have never once heard it referenced in church. Not once.

The sin of Laodecia was contentment without godliness. And their fate if they did not repent? I do not claim to fully know what being spit out of the mouth of God means, but I do not want to find out.Do you? Do we not long to please Him in all things? This ultimately will decide whether our profession is real faith or simply self deluding head knowledge.

It is time we opened up our Bibles and believed what we are clearly told and then seek for Him AND His righteousness with all of our hearts. If we do, we will simply be amazed at what God has for us.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Gideon etc.... Even though God is clear about who will not be in heaven, ever,
I thought the rules(TOS) of this forum didn't let us say so ? Did that change or
did I misunderstand the rules? (I'll go see if I can find them again)