Our God The Consuming Fire

[aiki]

Can unrepentant believers go to hell/gehenna?
The 1st 19 chapters of Revelation clearly shows it concerns the 1st century Jews and Jerusalem.

What is the "it" to which you're referring, exactly? Jesus speaks often of those who end up in everlasting, fiery punishment where the worm dies not, where there is gnashing of teeth, etc.

Please feel free to support your claim about the first nineteen chapters of the Revelation.

The letters to the 7 Assemblies are to believers.
Evidently false Jews have shown up in some of them, perhaps denoting the 1st century Judean Rulers.

But not all of the earliest believers were Jews. Have you not read any of Paul's letters? The Seven Churches included Gentiles.

Mark 1:15
And saying, "Has been filled the Time, and has-neared the Kingdom of the GOD.
Be ye reforming/repenting/metanoeite <3340> (5720)!, and be ye believing! in the Good-Message.

Nothing about Gentile non-Jews in these verses:

Mark 1:15
14 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

Where in these verses or in the immediate context of them does Mark exclude Gentiles from the company of those to whom Jesus preached? No where. Were there no Gentiles in Galilee at the time Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom of God? No, there were plenty of Gentiles in Galilee at the time. On what basis, then, are you excluding them from the things Jesus taught?

John 10:33
The Judeans answered Him, the Judeans saying,
"About a good work not we are stoning Thee, but about blasphemy<988>, and that Thou, being a man, are making thyself a god".
[Romans 2:23/Revelation 16:11,21][/QUOTE]

And your point is?

Paul never used the word "gehenna" in his Epistles:

Matthew 23: 33 "Serpents! brood of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging<2920> of the Gehenna<1067>

Paul never used the word "trinity," either, but the doctrine of the Trinity is clearly indicated in his letters. So, too, with the doctrine of eternal punishment in hell:

Romans 2:5-9
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness— indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew and of the Greek;

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
7...when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

2 Thessalonians 2:9-10
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And so on.

No mention of Gentiles here. I submit that these are 1st century pre 70ad Jews being spoken of.

But there is no explicit exclusion of Gentiles and no positive statement directing what is written only to Jews prior to 70 AD, either. We know Paul wrote to Gentiles and that they were mixed in with Jews in the Early Church. Read Paul's letter to the Galatian church, for example. In light of these things, it looks to me like you're just assuming the truth of your assertion.

In any case, I don't see how any of what you've offered defeats the doctrine of eternal, conscious torment in hell clearly taught in Scripture.

 

[aiki]

Eze 16:54 That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.
Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.
Eze 16:56 For thy sister Sodom was not mentioned by thy mouth in the day of thy pride,

And? Have Sodom and Gomorrah been returned to their former state? No.

 

[aiki]

What may have been interpreted by legalists in 'the natural' as to render up incinerated and charred corpses strewn hither and thither along the grim red carpet of Israel's shortfalls in measuring up to God's authoritarian requirements, is revealed by Jesus in 'the spiritual' to be in reality the destruction of those sinful inward parts of our being, the pruning/ correction (kolazei) of those diseased agents.

Your saying so doesn't make it so.

This is why we fight spiritual warfare and 'the last enemy' is death and not Barry, Steve and Karen (and Dr Death, time permitting). The sins of unbelief, cowardice etc are those enemies destroyed pursuant to the last judgment. The entire revelation of grace is a paradigm-shift that opens eyes to the way the truth and the life. His kingdom is not of this world.

This is all very...interesting but, as far as I'm concerned, amounts to a lot of wordy gobbledy-gook.

So, for instance, we're still in the Babylonian baby brain bashing business, but don't take it literally rush out and join the US Army in Iraq.

??? Who's rushing out to join up for fighting in Iraq? I'm not.

The message is to nip sinful thoughts in the bud, without mercy. It's always first a personal and relational message. Smiting is for sin. The sinner is for saving. That's the Word, from a to z.

To what "message," exactly, are you referring?

Sinners may be saved, yes. But as Scripture plainly indicates, they will not all be saved.

Matthew 7:14
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Matthew 7:23
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Matthew 25:41, 46
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels....
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

And so on.

 

[Lazarus Short]

See the condition? "" Turn to me and be saved"
It's not universal.

Consider Ephesians 2:8 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God," So, if the faith is by God and the grace is by God and the saving is by God, then I think it is safe to say that the turning is by God, and since we know that God is both willing and able to save all, it IS universal. Are we really going to state that OUR wills make it so, while God fails to exercise His Will? Absurd.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Perhaps you should learn to take the whole counsel of Scripture into account before you make assertions about its meaning.

I think I can safely say, as we ALL know so little about other posters, that your very soft accusation is false. Or, how do you know that Fine Linen has NOT taken the "whole counsel of Scripture into account"? You cannot know that. OTOH, we all make assertions about Scripture's meaning, according to our level of understanding and our personal theology.

 

[renniks]

Consider Ephesians 2:8 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God," So, if the faith is by God and the grace is by God and the saving is by God, then I think it is safe to say that the turning is by God, and since we know that God is both willing and able to save all, it IS universal. Are we really going to state that OUR wills make it so, while God fails to exercise His Will? Absurd.

Our wills do not save us, but the Bible is clear over and over again that we have to humble ourselves, repent and believe. This is by responding to his Spirit and all the saving is done by him, but it's not forced on us. It's debatable whether faith is including in the "gift" or only grace. But, regardless, he doesn't just zap us with faith when we are dead in sins. How could love even be loving if it's irresistible? I just could brain wash my wife to love me, that would not be love at all.

 

[Pedra]

If you're going to argue that Matthew 25:46 is about who goes to heaven and who goes to hell - then you're going to have to follow Jesus' words about how one achieves "eternal life'. The verses just preceding v. 26 say this:

Matthew 25:43 -45

43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’

44 “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’

45 “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’

Read ve-r-y carefully. I am not "arguing" about who goes to heaven, I have simply relayed the message that Jesus taught and quoted scriptures preached on the doctrine of Salvation but the true gospel of Jesus that is in the Bible is apparently not what you have been taught, unfortunately.

Mark 16:16
"16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. "

John 3:18
"Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

John 3:36
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him."

Acts 2:38
"Peter replied, 'Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'"

Acts 16:31
"They replied, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.'"


As far as Matt 25:43-45 goes- context, context, context. In these verses Jesus was admonishing his followers for not helping out the other believers among them who were needy and had less. Jesus condemned those who saw the naked and the thirsty among them and ignored their suffering. This scripture touches on the faith is not dead but the redeemed believers give evidence of the transformation by the Holy Spirit by good works.
Doing good deeds does not get people into heaven.
This is called a " works gospel" and it was not taught by Jesus or His followers. As shown by the scriptures above, the "works or "good deeds gospel" is contrary to what the Bible scripture teaches and not what Jesus taught about forgiveness of sins & receiving salvation---i.e. going to heaven.

 

[mkgal1]

See the condition? "" Turn to me and be saved"
It's not universal.

Right, they are turning to Him with genuine allegiance. You said they will unwillinglly be bowing and confessing. I believe God will eventually have ALL convinced He is the only True God.

By Myself I have sworn;

truth has gone out from My mouth,

a word that will not be revoked:

Every knee will bow before Me,

every tongue will swear allegiance.c

24Surely they will say of Me,

‘In the LORD alone are righteousness and strength.’”​

I believe God's prediction over yours.

 

[Pedra]

Btw, in Genesis 3:15 , the Bible refers to the "seed of the woman" --- It is JESUS who will crush the head of the serpent, not Mary.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Our wills do not save us, but the Bible is clear over and over again that we have to humble ourselves, repent and believe. This is by responding to his Spirit and all the saving is done by him, but it's not forced on us. It's debatable whether faith is including in the "gift" or only grace. But, regardless, he doesn't just zap us with faith when we are dead in sins. How could love even be loving if it's irresistible? I just could brain wash my wife to love me, that would not be love at all.

Yes, it is resistible, and I have resisted myself...but the Invitation is so inviting that all will accept it in the fullness of time.

 

[aiki]

I think I can safely say, as we ALL know so little about other posters, that your very soft accusation is false. Or, how do you know that Fine Linen has NOT taken the "whole counsel of Scripture into account"? You cannot know that.

I can know that by the assertions FineLinen makes about Scripture that clearly do not take the whole counsel of Scripture into account.

OTOH, we all make assertions about Scripture's meaning, according to our level of understanding and our personal theology.

Yes, we may make assertions about Scripture that reveal our level of understanding of it. I think FineLinen has done this in a way that indicates either ignorance of the whole counsel of Scripture or a purposeful misrepresentation of it. The OP about God and fire was a good example.

I have a theology, but I don't know that I could call it my personal theology in the sense that it is something I have worked up according to my personal preferences and thinking. My views are pretty mainstream orthodox Protestant Christian belief, readily supportable from Scripture and held in common with a great many of the evangelical Protestant Christians I know.

 

[renniks]

[/QUOTE]

By Myself I have sworn;

truth has gone out from My mouth,

a word that will not be revoked:

Every knee will bow before Me,

every tongue will swear allegiance.c

24Surely they will say of Me,

‘In the LORD alone are righteousness and strength.’”​

I believe God's prediction over yours. [/QUOTE]

Again, you are pulling out a few verses from a passage that isn't meant to imply universal salvation.
Isaiah 45 isn't talking about salvation post mortem.
Again, who are the seed of Isreal that are justified in verse 25?
All the seed of Israel - All the spiritual seed or descendants of Jacob. It cannot mean that every individual shall be justified and saved, when the Bible abundantly teaches the contrary (see Matthew 8:11-12; Romans 2:28-29; Romans 4:9-13).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Btw, in Genesis 3:15 , the Bible refers to the "seed of the woman" --- It is JESUS who will crush the head of the serpent, not Mary.

Correctomundo. Of course it was thru Mary that Jesus was born.

The Picture at bottom of post says it all...........

Matthew 23:33
“Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the judging of the GEHENNA<1067>?

2 Thessalonians 1:9
Who shall be punished with age-abiding<aionios 166> destruction<3639> from Face<4383> of the LORD, and from the glory of His power;

The Face of the Serpent:

Revelation 12:14
and there were given to the woman two wings of the great eagle, that she may fly to the wilderness, to her place, where she is nourished a time, and times, and half a time, from face of the serpent;

Face of One sitting upon the throne:
Revel 6:16 and Rev 20:11 appear to be the same event.
One looking up from the land and the other looking down from heaven? Will study more on that........

Revelation 6:16
And they are saying to the mountains and to the rocks:
'Be falling upon us! and hide us! from Face<4383> of the One-sitting/kaqhmenon <2521> (5740) upon the Throne, and from the wrath of the Lambkin

Revelation 20:11
I saw a great white throne.
And the One-sitting/kaqhmenon <2521> (5740) on it, from Who's Face<4383> fled the Land and the Heaven
and Place<5117> not was found to-them.
========================
Colossians 2:14
Blotting out/exaleiyaV <1813> the against us handwriting to the decrees/dogmasin <1378> which was hostile to us, and has taken away out of the midst,
nailing it to the /Cross/stake/stauros.

Revelation 21:4
And He shall be wiping-away/exaleiyei <1813> every tear out of their eyes,
and the death not shall be still, neither mourning neither clamor neither misery, not it shall be still,
that the former things pass away/aphlqon <565> (5627).
======================
You can barely see the head of the snake under His feet............

Picture: The Scroll, the Serpent, and our Salvation
May 28, 2008

Get on your analytical "art appreciation" hats:
Little Lamb of Jesus has included in his tagline area a picture called, "The Scroll, the Serpent, and our Salvation." It got my interest. It is highly controversial due to some of its interpretations. For many people, none of these deeper meanings are readily apparent. You never know why someone likes or hates this picture, and I thought it would be a good subject for discussion. Can you tell me what the images in the picture and their relationship to each other means to you?

............................

I think it's a graphical representation of Christ's victory over Satan, Hell, and Death through his sacrifice for our sins, and his resurrection afterwards.
the scroll would of course be scripture.
I mean, is it just me, or did they put the feet of jesus ABOVE the serpent as a coincidence? I like to think it was purposeful.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I can know that by the assertions FineLinen makes about Scripture that clearly do not take the whole counsel of Scripture into account.

Yes, we may make assertions about Scripture that reveal our level of understanding of it. I think FineLinen has done this in a way that indicates either ignorance of the whole counsel of Scripture or a purposeful misrepresentation of it. The OP about God and fire was a good example.

Odd, that you think so, for my impression of Fine Linen is of a man who has a very deep understanding of the Scriptures, and not just the surface layers...I see the Word as an ocean, and the best of us have only dipped their proverbial toes into it.

I am still pushing forward with my own study of fire/firebrand/burning and such words. So far, I have two tentative conclusions:

1. All supernatural fire in the Bible is from God.

2. God, however, is not that fire, nor is He contained in it.

Have you considered that your theology clouds your understanding of what Fine Linen (and other) has to say?

 

[Pedra]

I think I can safely say, as we ALL know so little about other posters, that your very soft accusation is false. Or, how do you know that Fine Linen has NOT taken the "whole counsel of Scripture into account"? You cannot know that. OTOH, we all make assertions about Scripture's meaning, according to our level of understanding and our personal theology.

Yeah we can.

Or, how do you know that Fine Linen has NOT taken the "whole counsel of Scripture into account"? You cannot know that.

Actually anyone can know this if they read & study the whole Bible, because the BIBLE which contains the whole counsel of GOD refutes what Fine Linen claims i.e. universal salvation.
So therefore, we know that he either doesn't know the whole counsel of God or he ignores it & like has been said or he misrepresents what he wants.

OTOH, we all make assertions about Scripture's meaning, according to our level of understanding and our personal theology.

Some of us just submitted to the Holy Spirit & let the Bible inform our beliefs --period and we were ourselves humbly taught by the word of God. Not the opposite , which amounts to attempts to force scripture to agree with puny human opinions.

 

[FineLinen]

Perhaps you should learn to take the whole counsel of Scripture into account before you make assertions about its meaning. I have already cited several verses in earlier posts that indicate very clearly that God is not the Saviour of all men in actuality, but only potentially. This is indicated in the distinction "especially those who believe." These are distinct from the lost who may be saved if they believe because they have believed and so have been saved. This is not difficult to see...

This is exciting info.

God is potentially a saviour but is not Saviour? Good grief!

Again, "only" is not "especially"!

Dear drowning man: cheer up a potential saviour is standing by

 

[FineLinen]

Yeah we can.

Actually anyone can know this if they read & study the whole Bible, because the BIBLE which contains the whole counsel of GOD refutes what Fine Linen claims i.e. universal salvation.
So therefore, we know that he either doesn't know the whole counsel of God or he ignores it & like has been said or he misrepresents what he wants.


Some of us just submitted to the Holy Spirit & let the Bible inform our beliefs --period and we were ourselves humbly taught by the word of God. Not the opposite , which amounts to attempts to force scripture to agree with puny human opinions.

You can pour over over your Bible, but unfortunately the word of the Master must be awakened within you.

Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures

 

[Pedra]

Odd, that you think so, for my impression of Fine Linen is of a man who has a very deep understanding of the Scriptures, and not just the surface layers...I see the Word as an ocean, and the best of us have only dipped their proverbial toes into it.

I am still pushing forward with my own study of fire/firebrand/burning and such words. So far, I have two tentative conclusions:

1. All supernatural fire in the Bible is from God.

2. God, however, is not that fire, nor is He contained in it.

Have you considered that your theology clouds your understanding of what Fine Linen (and other) has to say?

You would be better off examining expository teaching which which examines the bible comprehensively in context, verse by verse so you are not ignorant of the meaning of scriptures & lead astray by someone who sounds spiritual. Those who remain ignorant of the scriptures can be easily lead away by false teachers.

What is expository preaching? | GotQuestions.org

 

[Pedra]

This is exciting info.

God is potentially a saviour but is not Saviour? Good grief!

Again, "only" is not "especially"!

Dear drowning man: cheer up a potential saviour is standing by

Twisting the meaning of what other posters say which is the same as you've done with the scriptures.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You would be better off examining expository teaching which which examines the bible comprehensively in context, verse by verse so you are not ignorant of the meaning of scriptures & lead astray by someone who sounds spiritual. Those who remain ignorant of the scriptures can be easily lead away by false teachers.

What is expository preaching? | GotQuestions.org

Hello pot, meet kettle.
I almost reported your post as a flame.............