• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.

Featured Our God The Consuming Fire

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by FineLinen, Sep 13, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

    +28,475
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    Can unrepentant believers go to hell/gehenna?
    The 1st 19 chapters of Revelation clearly shows it concerns the 1st century Jews and Jerusalem.

    The letters to the 7 Assemblies are to believers.
    Evidently false Jews have shown up in some of them, perhaps denoting the 1st century Judean Rulers.

    Mark 1:15
    And saying, "Has been filled the Time, and has-neared the Kingdom of the GOD.
    Be ye reforming/repenting/metanoeite <3340> (5720)!, and be ye believing! in the Good-Message.

    Nothing about Gentile non-Jews in these verses:

    John 10:33
    The Judeans answered Him, the Judeans saying,
    "About a good work not we are stoning Thee, but about blasphemy<988>, and that Thou, being a man, are making thyself a god".
    [Romans 2:23/Revelation 16:11,21]

    Paul never used the word "gehenna" in his Epistles:

    Matthew 23: 33 "Serpents! brood of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging<2920> of the Gehenna<1067>

    Romans 2:23
    Who in law are boasting through the transgression of the Law, the God thou are dishonoring
    24 'For the name of the God is being blasphemed in the Nations because of ye' according as it has been written.'
    [Psalm 74:10]

    Revelation 2:5
    Be thou remembering then!, whence/which-place thou hast fallen and reform/repent/metanohson <3340> (5657) thou! And the first works, thou do !
    If yet no, I am coming to thee quickly, and shall be removing the Lamp-stand of thee out of the Place of her, if ever no thou should be reforming/repenting/metanohshV <3340> (5661)".

    No mention of Gentiles here. I submit that these are 1st century pre 70ad Jews being spoken of.

    Rev 2:9
    I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
    Rev 3:9
    I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.

    Revelation 16:11
    And they blaspheme the GOD of the heaven out of the miseries of them, and out of the sores of them.
    And not they repent/reform/metenohsan <3340> (5656) out of their works.

    .........................
     
  2. Pedra

    Pedra Newbie

    +607
    Baptist
    Married
    Realize you are a human ad-libing -- I prefer to follow what The Bible AKA the Word of God teaches.
    You prefer the heretical translations that are changing the meaning of Word of God.

    Jesus said, Mark 16:16 " 16 WHO EVER BELIEVES and is baptized WILL BE SAVED, but whoever does Not Believe WILL BE CONDEMNED.

    Btw, that is two-part that Jesus said whoever Believes and is Baptized is saved --that means believes & is baptized by the Holy Spirit - aka born again from above.) Whoever does not believe will be condemned.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
  3. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +5,283
    Non-Denom
    Do you have any idea that every hour of every day over 500 children die worldwide before being baptized? And what shall you do with them?

    Every sparrow in Father's constant care
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
  4. Pedra

    Pedra Newbie

    +607
    Baptist
    Married
    It matters not what humans hope what matters is what Jesus & the word of God says.
    @FineLinen You missed the last part of what Jesus said when you quoted my post.
    Mark 16:16 " 16 WHO EVER BELIEVES and is baptized WILL BE SAVED, but whoever does Not Believe WILL BE CONDEMNED.
     
  5. Pedra

    Pedra Newbie

    +607
    Baptist
    Married
    Adults are not children.
    ...and the children are not adults, they are not at the age of adulthood where they are responsible for themselves , their decisions, their lives.
     
  6. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

    +1,847
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Am I "ad-libing"? Pedra, I was raised a Southern Baptist, joined the Seventh-Day Adventist for a few years, and later came across the idea of Universal Reconciliation. The preacher who introduced me to UR admitted that the Bible appeared to teach all three, so I prefer to see them as theories or hypotheses, rather than an orthodoxy versus heresy duality. It was my "trilemma." The data would be the text of the Bible, so about four years ago, I delved into a very ordinary KJV to see if one theory explained the data better than the other two.

    Early on, I had two clues: a depiction of the Tibetan Buddhist Hell, which differed from the Christian Hell only in artistic style...and the first mention of Hell in the OT, of which the center-column reference said, "or see Sheol." In time, I began to see lots of clever mistranslations, which seemed (no, it was not consistent) biased toward the ECT theory - Eternal Conscious Torment, in spite of texts which flatly contradict it, such as Psalm 136. I could list more all day, or play "proof text ping pong," but why? I see my posts being dismissed out of hand.
     
  7. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +5,283
    Non-Denom
    Mankind does not sin by doing stuff! Mankind sins from his very nature. Children are innocent, but alas, sinner by nature.



    There is NO free ride, every last one of us must be changed
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
  8. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

    +1,847
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Condemned to what? Hell? The Lake of Fire? Outer Darkness?

    Or did Jesus simply mean more corrective punishment?

    This is where one's theology makes a difference.
     
  9. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

    +681
    Non-Denom
    Married


    Eze 16:54 That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.
    Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.
    Eze 16:56 For thy sister Sodom was not mentioned by thy mouth in the day of thy pride,
     
  10. Pedra

    Pedra Newbie

    +607
    Baptist
    Married
    Yes you are ad-libing , the bit in your previous post -->"Sheep and goats are both clean animals, both as food and in the ceremonial sense.2. The goats are sent into the cleansing fire (Godfire) of First Corinthians 3:15, where their chaff, tares, wood, hay and stubble will be burned away. Yet, they will be saved as through fire." <----That is all just creatively adding a justification for your view. That explanation has nothing to do with what the Bible says. You are over-laying your own imagining upon those verses.
    FYI, I don't care if you say you graduated from Seminary, your opinions of Salvation and Hell are man- created / wishful thinking and not what is in the Word of God.
     
  11. Pedra

    Pedra Newbie

    +607
    Baptist
    Married
    Why try to pretend it is less then the Word of God warns? If you are convicted of a crime and condemned what does that mean?

    condemn
    [ kuhn-dem ]

    verb (used with object)
    - to express an unfavorable or adverse judgment on; indicate strong disapproval of; censure.
    - to pronounce to be guilty; sentence to punishment:to condemn a murderer to life imprisonment.
    - to give grounds or reason for convicting or censuring:His acts condemn him.
    - to judge or pronounce to be unfit for use or service:to condemn an old building.
    - U.S. Law. to acquire ownership of for a public purpose, under the right of eminent domain:The city condemned the property.
    - to force into a specific state or activity:
     
  12. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +5,283
    Non-Denom
    Unspoken Sermons by George MacDonald: Justice

    "To You, O Lord, belongs mercy; for You render to every man according to his work."

     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
  13. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +5,283
    Non-Denom
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
  14. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    +5,854
    Anglican
    Married
    My goodness! You're tracking on the same wave length as me. I just got back from Bible study and got on here to post this same verse (because it came up in our study this morning - and this thread came to mind). We also talked about the rule of first mention used in interpreting biblical text - and how this was the first time God's presence was described as fire (so this sets the precedent for how we interpret all remaining verses about God's fire). It is NOT destructive!

    Also......in the same recorded event, we learn God's character (I Am). Jesus gave us 7 "I am" statements:

    1. I am the bread of life. (John 6:35)
    2. I am the light of the world. (John 8:12)
    3. I am the door. (John 10:9)
    4. I am the Good Shepherd. (John 10:11)
    5. I am the resurrection and the Life. (John 11:25-26)
    6. I am the Way the Truth and the Life. (John 14:6)
    7. I am the Vine. (John 15:5).



     
  15. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

    +1,847
    Non-Denom
    Married
    OK, here is a direct quote:

    11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

    12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

    13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    This is First Corinthians 3:11-15. I gave the gist of it - the script if you will. Did I really ad-lib? Now, understand well:

    "...he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

    Does it yet dawn on you that we are saved, not damned, by fire? If saved by fire, the fire MUST be Godfire, not Hellfire.
     
  16. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

    +1,847
    Non-Denom
    Married
    The above is a side-step, not an answer.
     
  17. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

    +1,847
    Non-Denom
    Married
    "4. I am the Good Shepherd." mkgal1, it is too often forgotten that Jesus, the Good Shepherd depicted Himself as One who would leave the 99 and search for the one lost sheep. Will He do any less for us?
     
  18. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    +5,854
    Anglican
    Married
    I totally agree with you that the Bible needs to be read in its entirety and IN CONTEXT in order to understand the cohesive whole story.

    Here's the trouble - you believe in a whole other story.

    This is the story I believe:
    Beginning back in Exodus 3, when God called Moses to assemble the Israelites and lead them out of Egypt.....the story that parallels our exile from sin and death....began. The Israelites were the "people of God".....they were to be the example of Him to the world. They asked for a king like all the other nations had (rejecting God's kingship). Their priests were representatives of God. Did they live up to their covenant with Him? Did He have patience and grace with them? He had many prophets warn them over their entire existence to turn back to their One true God. These prophets gave clues as to their coming Messiah.....what to look for.....when He would arrive....etc. Then....when their Messiah DID come.....His life and His teachings were the last chance they'd get. Their kingdom was soon to be taken from them - and the Kingdom of God would then reign. Their Temple (which was a source of power for them) their animal sacrifices....their place to meet with God would all be destroyed and burned in a fire. FOREVER taken from them as punishment.

    But....out of death comes new life. A new King.....a new High Priest....and a New Covenant. From the remnant - the early church was birthed.

    That's the plot I see in a nutshell. All the verses about impending fire? That's not hell as our culture understands hell - that was the destruction of the Temple and Ancient Jerusalem. The instruction was to "flee to the mountains" (Matthew 24:16) in order to be saved. If Jesus were speaking about escaping hell after we die - fleeing to the mountains wouldn't be much help. Would it?


    Temple Destruction Foretold
    Matthew 24
    (Mark 13:1-9; Luke 21:5-9)

    1As Jesus left the temple and was walking away, His disciples came up to Him to point out its buildings.

    2Do you see all these things?” He replied. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

    Signs of the End of the Age

    3While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

    4Jesus answered, “See to it that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

    Witnessing to All Nations
    (Mark 13:10-13; Luke 21:10-19)

    9Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. 10At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, 11and many false prophets will arise and mislead many.

    12Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. 13But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

    14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

    The Abomination of Desolation
    (Mark 13:14-23; Luke 21:20-24)

    15 So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18 And let no one in the field return for his cloak.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
  19. Pedra

    Pedra Newbie

    +607
    Baptist
    Married
    Responses to posts are very disjointed.
     
  20. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    +5,854
    Anglican
    Married
    The original Greek word that was used for "draw" is ἑλκύσω
    (elkusō) and it's defined to mean "to drag" - so that doesn't sound passive to me.
    John 12:32 Lexicon: "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

    I believe that's because His grace and love never fails (in the long game).
    Romans 14:11; Philippians 2:10–11; Isaiah 45:23 refer to "every knee bowing"
    So you believe God is like some dictator that gets some pleasure out of empty gestures like bowing? He knows their hearts - why would He desire people to unwillingly bow?

    In context
    :

    God Calls Cyrus

    1This is what the LORD says to Cyrus His anointed,

    whose right hand I have grasped

    to subdue nations before him,

    to disarm kings,

    to open the doors before him,

    so that the gates will not be shut:

    2I will go before you

    and level the mountains;a

    I will break down the gates of bronze

    and cut through the bars of iron.

    3I will give you the treasures of darkness

    and the riches hidden in secret places,

    so that you may know that I am the LORD
    ,

    the God of Israel, who calls you by name.

    4For the sake of Jacob My servant

    and Israel My chosen one,

    I call you by name;

    I have given you a title of honor,

    though you have not known Me.

    5I am the LORD, and there is no other;

    there is no God but Me.


    I will equip you for battle,

    though you have not known Me,

    6 so that all may know,

    from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting,

    that there is none but Me;

    I am the LORD, and there is no other.

    7I form the light and create the darkness;

    I bring prosperity and create calamity.

    I, the LORD, do all these things.

    8Drip down, O heavens, from above,

    and let the skies pour down righteousness.

    Let the earth open up that salvation may sprout

    and righteousness spring up with it;

    I, the LORD, have created it.

    9Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker—

    one clay pot among many.

    Does the clay ask the potter,

    ‘What are you making?’

    Does your work say,

    ‘He has no hands’?

    10Woe to him who says to his father,

    ‘What have you begotten?’

    or to his mother,

    ‘What have you brought forth?’”

    11Thus says the LORD,

    the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker:

    “How dare you question Me concerning My sons,

    or instruct Me about the work of My hands?

    12It is I who made the earth

    and created man upon it.

    It was My hands that stretched out the heavens,

    and I ordained all their host.

    13I will raise up Cyrus in righteousness,

    and I will make all his ways straight.

    He will rebuild My city

    and set My exiles free,

    but not for payment or reward,

    says the LORD of Hosts.”

    14This is what the LORD says:

    “The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush,b

    along with the Sabeans, men of stature,

    will come over to you

    and will be yours;

    they will trudge behind you;

    they will come over in chains and bow down to you.

    They will confess to you:

    ‘God is indeed with you, and there is no other;

    there is no other God
    .’”

    15 Truly You are a God who hides Himself,

    O God of Israel, the Savior.

    16 They will all be put to shame and humiliated;

    the makers of idols will go away together in disgrace.

    17 But Israel will be saved by the LORD

    with an everlasting salvation;

    you will not be put to shame or humiliated,

    to ages everlasting.

    18 For thus says the LORD,

    who created the heavens; He is God;

    He formed the earth and fashioned it;

    He established it;

    He did not create it to be empty,

    but formed it to be inhabited:

    “I am the LORD,

    and there is no other.


    19I have not spoken in secret,

    from a place in a land of darkness.

    I did not say to the descendants of Jacob:

    ‘Seek Me in a wasteland.’

    I, the LORD, speak the truth;

    I say what is right.

    20Come, gather together, and draw near,

    you fugitives from the nations.

    Ignorant are those who carry idols of wood

    and pray to a god that cannot save.

    21Speak up and present your case—

    yes, let them take counsel together.

    Who foretold this long ago?

    Who announced it from ancient times?

    Was it not I, the LORD?

    There is no other God but Me,

    a righteous God and Savior;

    there is none but Me.

    22 Turn to Me and be saved,

    all the ends of the earth;

    for I am God,

    and there is no other.


    23 By Myself I have sworn;

    truth has gone out from My mouth,

    a word that will not be revoked:

    Every knee will bow before Me,

    every tongue will swear allegiance.c

    24Surely they will say of Me,

    ‘In the LORD alone are righteousness and strength
    .’”

    "All Israel shall be saved"? Is that the passage you're referring to? Or do you mean Isaiah 51:8? Isaiah is referring to "Abraham's seed" and we learn in Galatians that is Christ:

    Galatians 3:16
    Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed,"who is Christ.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...