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Our Galaxy is a Vortex: Seeing How our Solar System Rotates in multiple levels...

Murby

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None of this deals with the thread
Of course it does.

and if in the discussion, as a point of respect, one needs to contribute TO the discussion in speaking on the issue.
That's exactly what I did.. Why are you confused?

as you haven't shown in any of the comments to know anything on astrophysics or cosmology and trying to do personal discussion on people (Against the CF rules) rather than discussion on the issues doesn't help.
And personal attacks on people are also against CF rules.. If one donates money to the site do the rules still apply in the same way?
The video's you posted are inaccurate.. entertaining perhaps, but in accurate. When one shows the sun corkscrewing through the galaxy, its obviously an entertainment piece designed to look like science or factual information..
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Of course it does.

.
No it doesn't, as making shots at people rather than dealing with the concept or content as it concerns astronomy does not deal with

That's exactly what I did.. Why are you confused?
Incorrect (again) as wrangling on comments about bright colors isn't the same as dealing with the content respectfully.
And personal attacks on people are also against CF rules..
Indeed - which is why it was asked for you to cease with it and not be off topic when entering into a thread.
If one donates money to the site do the rules still apply in the same way?
The video's you posted are inaccurate.. entertaining perhaps, but in accurate. When one shows the sun corkscrewing through the galaxy, its obviously an entertainment piece designed to look like science or factual information.
Nothing said was inaccurate when context was addressed - and the issue, as stated in the OP, was sharing on why they felt a model was the best one (Which you didn't) and addressing in context what other models were for. If you cannot remain respectful in conversation, there's no need for you being here when you didn't deal at all with actual science which has not been against revolving through the galaxy.
 
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Murby

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Incorrect (again) as wrangling on comments about bright colors isn't the same as dealing with the content respectfully.
The content isn't respectful from a science point.. it's more like a Bug's Bunny cartoon designed to dazzle the scientifically uneducated.
Showing our Sun corkscrewing through the galaxy in such a way is not even remotely accurate, and it's not science.. it's kindergarten cartoonish.
.
 
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[serious]

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And as said before, you didn't give anything close to an answer. You asked a red herring question on what stellar wind has to do with direction when you didn't even show - in academic reference or otherwise - that stellar wind was not related to the issue. If you are going to make a case, don't just throw out a phrase doing an argument of incredulity thinking you showed what others said in science. Other astrophysicists have spoken on the issue before so focus.....and to be clear, if you're going to attempt an ad-hominemn about "Well, that's a copy paste answer" (as if it is somehow less authentic when quoting another scientists speaking on the issue), then you're really not interested in answers.
I didn't show that stellar wind in unrelated to the issue?

How would I go about proving a negative? I likewise didn't prove that teddybears are unrelated to the issue. Should a picture of a teddy bear with no explanation of it's relation to the OP likewise be assumed to be relevant somehow?
And as said before, I assume you know basics with not making something up without verification. Scientists have already noted interstellar wind results from our motion at points - and no, it is not coming from the direction of Scorpius at all points nor was it assumed all interstellar wind comes from moving through a stationary cloud - but again, that is your assumption.
What direction do you think the interstellar wind is coming from then?

NASA seems to agree with me that it's coming from roughly the direction of scorpius:
"From Earth's perspective, the interstellar wind flows in from a point just above the constellation Scorpius. Results from 11 spacecraft over 40 years show that the exact direction has changed some 4 to 9 degrees since the 1970s."
http://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/interstellar-wind-changed-direction-over-40-years
 
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Gxg (G²)

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The content isn't respectful from a science point.. it's more like a Bug's Bunny cartoon designed to dazzle the scientifically uneducated.
Showing our Sun corkscrewing through the galaxy in such a way is not even remotely accurate, and it's not science.. it's kindergarten cartoonish.
.
You again haven't been addressing science - and as said before, arguments of appeal to emotion are not even remotely the same as dealing with a model. It's like saying "Capitalism can work in small nations" And giving a response like "You think capitalism can work? I guess you also think monkeys can fly too!!!!" - it doesn't show you have any awareness of a model or the issue and have to resort to caricatures rather than serious addressment since the video was not even about the sun corkscrewing through the galaxy and other astrophysicists have said the same thing when it comes to the galaxy revolving even as planets orbit. What you've done so far neither shows you're actually scientifically educated or able to deal with discussion without resorting to emotional appeals as if that's in any way academic.

Thus, again, when you are serious on actually showing you know science, then speak on the issue/deal with the thread. As it is, it is off topic and at this point you are derailing - with it being taken further, if necessary, to CF administration for intentionally going off topic.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I didn't show that stellar wind in unrelated to the issue?

How would I go about proving a negative? I likewise didn't prove that teddybears are unrelated to the issue.
Should a picture of a teddy bear with no explanation of it's relation to the OP likewise be assumed to be relevant somehow?What direction do you think the interstellar wind is coming from then?
Again, please show and verify - as you brought it up - that Solar Wind only comes from Scoripus and that it does not change direction in where it came from. That was the issue you brought up when it came to others noting solar wind changes in its origins and that shows that our system is moving. I already discussed where solar wind was coming from and referenced - so again, is that going to be addresessed or not?

And to be clear, you alone brought up the point of solar wind when that was not even the original point of discussion. No one brought up a picture without explanation of relation to the OP, as that was you coming into a thread assuming what intent was about and not listening to discussion. As said before in Saturday at 8:51 AM:


There are a couple of reasons why I think this model could just be right. First of all, the heliocentrical model has always been presented (especially by NASA) as a “frisbee” model.


[image taken from here]
Think about this for a minute. In this diagram it seems the Solar System travel to the left. When the Earth is also traveling to the left (for half a year) it must go faster than the Sun. Then in the second half of the year, it travels in a “relative opposite direction” so it must go slower than the Sun. Then, after completing one orbit, it must increase speed to overtake the Sun in half a year. And this would go for all the planets. Just like any point you draw on a frisbee will not have a constant speed, neither will any planet.

Interstellar Wind comes from more than one direction and can shift. As said before - from University of New Hampshire at What do we know about the local interstellar medium?
:

Our sun (and solar system) are currently moving through a cloud of interstellar gas. This cloud is approximately 60 light years across, with our sun being only appoximately 4 light years from the edge. Our local cloud, which features a density of 0.1 particles per cubic centimeter, and a temperature of about 6000-7000 K) is immersed in the "Local Bubble," which has extremely low densities (approximately 0.001 particles per cubic centimeter) and very high temperatures (approx. 1,000,000 K). The local bubble is about 300 light years in diameter, and may have been created by a supernova explosion. How do we know about this? The material from our local cloud can be sampled within the solar system, a process you learned about in the previous section of this tutorial.



How the interstellar wind is focused by the sun's gravitational field (click for Flash movie)

Our sun is moving through the local interstellar gas cloud approximately into the direction of Scorpio with a speed of about 25 km/sec. As a result of this motion, an interstellar wind with that speed is blowing through our planetary system. This is similar to the wind felt while driving a convertible car with the top down. We measure this interstellar wind as helium, and the density of helium changes with our year, an effect that can be seen in this brief animation.

This radiation would turn the neutral gas atoms into ions and electrons that would then be swept out of the solar system by the gale-force solar wind, with speeds of 300 - 1000 km/sec. Until the late 1960's, astonomers thought that in this manner, the Sun would sweep the space around itself clean because of its fierce UV ratiation (UV radiation is the wavelength that provides us with a sun tan). However, the Sun rushes through the gas, so that there is not enough time for the atoms to lose their electrons and become charged until the atoms are actually very close to the sun. The two different views are illustrated in the following images:



1968_neighbor.gif
modern_neighbor.gif
NASA seems to agree with me that it's coming from roughly the direction of scorpius:
"From Earth's perspective, the interstellar wind flows in from a point just above the constellation Scorpius. Results from 11 spacecraft over 40 years show that the exact direction has changed some 4 to 9 degrees since the 1970s."
http://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/interstellar-wind-changed-direction-over-40-years
And other physicists have noted differently as it concerns changing directions:

As noted there:


Figure 1. Our “neighborhood” in the Milky Way lies just inside one of the galaxy’s great spiral arms, the Orion Arm. The majority of the brightest stars are distributed along a section of sky known as Gould’s Belt (dashed ellipse), which also marks the distribution of the nearby star-forming regions in the Orion spiral arm. Stellar winds from these star-forming regions—such as the Scorpius-Centaurus association—push “shells” of interstellar material into the sun’s path. The sun is currently on the edge of such a shell (not visible at this scale). The actions of interstellar winds and the sun’s own motion through the galaxy may alter the sun’s local galactic environment on time scales as brief as a few thousand years. The author discusses what space scientists know about the interaction between the solar system and its changing galactic environment. (Courtesy of the National Geographic Society. Adapted from the supplement to the October 1999 issue of National Geographic.)


The sun is on the edge of what is sometimes called the Local Bubble, a great void in the distribution of interstellar gas in the nearby galactic neighborhood. As voids go, the Local Bubble interior is one of the most extreme vacuums yet discovered. The very best laboratory vacuum is about 10,000 times denser than a typical interstellar cloud, which in turn is thousands of times denser than the Local Bubble. The Local Bubble is not only relatively empty (with a density of less than 0.001 atoms per cubic centimeter); it is also quite hot, about one million degrees kelvin. By comparison, the interstellar cloud around the solar system is merely warm, about 7,000 degrees, with a density of about 0.3 atoms per cubic centimeter.

The Local Bubble lies within a ring of young stars and star-forming regions known as Gould’s Belt. The Belt is evident in the night sky as a band of very bright stars that sweeps in a great circle from the constellations Orion to Scorpius, inclined about 20 degrees relative to the galactic plane. The north pole of Gould’s Belt lies close to the Lockman Hole, a region in the sky with the least amount of intervening interstellar gas between the sun and extragalactic space. Star formation regulates the distribution of interstellar matter, including the boundaries of the Local Bubble. The closest star-forming region on the outskirts of the Local Bubble is about 400 light-years away in the Scorpius-Centaurus association. The molecular clouds from which stars are formed are both cooler (less than 100 degrees) and denser (over 1,000 atoms per cubic centimeter) than the Local Interstellar Cloud. A plot of the sun’s course through our galactic locale shows that the sun has been traveling through the Gould’s Belt interior in a region of very low average interstellar density for several million years. The sun is unlikely to have encountered a large, dense interstellar cloud in this relatively benign region during this time. Although our solar system is in the process of emerging from the Local Bubble, the sun’s trajectory suggests that it will probably not encounter a large, dense cloud for at least several more million years.


Solar wind sock

Since the 1970s, we’ve known that the solar system is moving through a cloud of interstellar gas about 30 light years across, out on the edge of the Milky Way galaxy. The sun’s motion through the cloud creates an apparent wind of interstellar particles that slams into the heliosphere.

Most of the wind’s particles are charged and so are deflected around the heliosphere by the sun’s magnetic field. But some heavier, neutral atoms – mostly helium – make it inside. These helium atoms scatter off the charged particles coming from the sun and create a diffuse glow in extreme ultraviolet wavelengths that is visible across the entire sky.


A US Department of Defence (DoD) satellite called STP 72-1 mapped this glow in 1972 and found that the intensity jumped by a factor of 10 in late November compared with what it had been in June. Around January, it calmed down again. That spike occurred because Earth passed through a build-up of neutral helium atoms as it orbited the sun.

As helium atoms from the interstellar cloud enter the heliosphere, their trajectories are bent by the sun’s gravity, creating a cone downwind from the flow of interstellar particles. The cone acts like a wind sock, revealing the direction that the wind is coming from, and it was Earth passing through this cone that provided STP 72-1 with its November spike.

Winds of change
But then NASA’s Interstellar Boundary Explorer (IBEX), launched in 2009, revealed something odd: the wind has changed direction. IBEX has been directly sampling neutral helium atoms from the interstellar cloud as part of its mission to map the boundary between the solar system and the rest of the galaxy. Its readings show that, instead of Earth passing through the sun’s helium tail in late November, the peak came about a week late, in early December. That indicates a change in wind direction of about 6 degrees in only 40 years.

“We didn’t expect any indication of visible changes on the timescale of tens of years,” says Moebius. “That’s really the surprising thing, in terms of astronomical scales.”

To make sure the change was real, Frisch and colleagues gathered historical data from nine other spacecraft, including the original extreme UV measurements from the 1970s, as well as direct helium measurements from theUlysses spacecraft that flew in the 1990s. They saw a statistically significant trend.

Stuck in the middle
“While there had been hints that something was changing in the environment of the sun, when we finally put all the historical data together it became clear that one can make a strong scientific statement that this change has actually occurred,” says Frisch. What the change means is still up for debate. We could be nearing the cloud’s edge, or we could still be in the thick of it, pushing our way through an interstellar storm.
 
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Ophiolite

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I'm sorry - but that comes off a bit obtuse, as there's nothing difficult to understand when someone says directly "The former was the focus in what you were saying" when you state "I am not sure if it is just drawing attention to some interesting, but often overlooked points" - if you don't understand the usage of referring to the former or the latter, then it's really about you not understanding basics in English and that's a larger problem that can be addressed elsewhere. As said before, I am not going to repeat the issue - especially when one already stated the matter in the OP:



Again, it's not terribly difficult to address that dynamic as that was the focus of the thread.



Once again, I doubt you are unable to read - so when it comes to dealing with the issue, it is hoped there will be not any attempt at being obtuse on the issue...or slowness to address what was already stated clearly in the OP. Foreign language is not an issue, although the ability to comprehend can be impacted when there's unwillingness to understand.

You missed, if you read in context, where it was noted that a planar image of the solar system is not opposite of the solar system itself orbiting. The discussion was on differing models and their impact.

The position of the solar system within the galaxy does not oscillate above and below the galactic plane - and the discussion was on helical movement in how it operates, it is not irrelevant when it comes to the issue of standard representations being addressed. This is what the author of the video in the OP noted when sharing in Solar System 2.0 & Science Friction | DjSadhu.com
I think I am going to withdraw from this discussion, with a couple of final remarks:

1. I well understand what "the former" means, but this is "the former" in your post:

Central point was already noted in the OP - I am not going to repeat more times if it was not addressed the first time since the focus was on the helic model of the universe and it giving a different perspective and discussing the validity of that model - or disagreeing with it and sharing other models....AND seeing what best fits while appreciating the nature of the universe

- It is a concatenation of clauses that run on interminably and thus lack clarity. In such a case it is unreasonable of you to decline an attempt at clarification.

2. You accuse me of not wishing to understand you when the reverse is true. I am at a loss as to why you are being so hostile. If English is your native language then perhaps I have offended you for pointing out that your writing is, at times, incomprehensible. I regret that, I apologise for offending you, but I do not apologise for pointing out that you are not being clear. That is not done in order to put you down, but to help you get your message across. I am disappointed you chose to take my advice and request for help so negatively.

3. You say "...it is hoped there will be not any attempt at being obtuse on the issue...or slowness to address what was already stated clearly in the OP"

Writers do not get to decide whether or not they have been clear. That is a decision made by the reader. This reader, anxious to know what you are proposing, has asked for more clarity. You have declined to provide it.

4. The solar system does pass in a regular and systematic fashion from below the galactic plane to above it during its orbit of the galaxy. If you don't want to call that oscillation, fine, but that is how I have seen it described.

Thank you for such responses as you have given, I only regret that you were not more forthcoming.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I think I am going to withdraw from this discussion, with a couple of final remarks:

1. I well understand what "the former" means, but this is "the former" in your post:

Central point was already noted in the OP - I am not going to repeat more times if it was not addressed the first time since the focus was on the helic model of the universe and it giving a different perspective and discussing the validity of that model - or disagreeing with it and sharing other models....AND seeing what best fits while appreciating the nature of the universe

- It is a concatenation of clauses that run on interminably and thus lack clarity. In such a case it is unreasonable of you to decline an attempt at clarification.
You made two different statements and avoided when someone noted "What you said here in your statement is what the focus was." This is also goes in regards to when someone says directly the focus on a thread is on discussing differing models - so again, being obtuse on the issue is what it appears like when one cannot acknowledge what another already noted with mountains made into molehills. The discussion was about discussing the validity of the helic model and seeing it in context - and the video itself was also focused on that context. If the goal was to understand, you had several opportunities and did not deal with them. Clarity was given, so address it.


2. You accuse me of not wishing to understand you when the reverse is true. I am at a loss as to why you are being so hostile.
Red herring is not necessary in a discussion, as no one is hostile. When someone says they are not going to repeat something, it is stating a matter of fact as it concerns not going out of the way to re-state the same thing that was said before. If someone says the focus of a thread is discussing the Helic model and its validity - and you say you want more clarity when someone already offered it - it comes off obtuse as in being slow to understand or do simple things that help in your understanding. I did not say you did not want to understand, as what was noted was that there was seeming to not be a willingness to deal with what was already stated and thus limiting understanding.

If English is your native language then perhaps I have offended you for pointing out that your writing is, at times, incomprehensible. I regret that, I apologise for offending you, but I do not apologise for pointing out that you are not being clear. That is not done in order to put you down, but to help you get your message across. I am disappointed you chose to take my advice and request for help so negatively.

Focusing on my English as if yours has been flawless is a bit of a distraction - as you haven't offended so much as simply reiterated that there tends to be a dynamic of making excuses for moments when you are not willing to listen and then try to make it seem as if it's someone else not communicating. What is present is not listening and that shows that what someone states is not the same as what you hear - and that is a problem when there is unwillingness that makes anything incomprehensible. So please, no need for apologies on offending as you didn't point out anything that was really happening. What I say is not said to put you down, but to note that facts are facts. Thus, it would behoove you to read more clearly before speaking next time - and to not lose focus. Whether you're disappointed or not has little to no relevance to whether you showed you understood a model that was discussed in the OP. It is rather clear you do not - and if speaking on advice, I'd advise you to learn not to jump into discussions without first seeing if you have fully addressed the central points or if you're listening selectively.


3. You say "...it is hoped there will be not any attempt at being obtuse on the issue...or slowness to address what was already stated clearly in the OP"

Writers do not get to decide whether or not they have been clear. That is a decision made by the reader. This reader, anxious to know what you are proposing, has asked for more clarity. You have declined to provide it.
Again, this is largely irrelevant to the OP when it comes to the issue of where others choose to hear what they wish and many have noted how often the same thing said in one context is understood fully because others already had interest/wanted to discuss, whereas others not wanting to listen (and already being committed to another view) tend to hear what they desire. You already came into discussion saying you wanted to believe in anything opposite of the Helic model and were not convinced. Thus, there was no need asking for clarity when you had a prior assumption - and as you did not deal with the video, discussion is a mutual conversation. It is not upon a writer to bear the brunt of all understanding for a reader. Thus far, you have declined to listen to what was actually read - and avoided when clarity was given. It'd behoove you to understand the reality of taking ownership.
4. The solar system does pass in a regular and systematic fashion from below the galactic plane to above it during its orbit of the galaxy. If you don't want to call that oscillation, fine, but that is how I have seen it described.
Of course.
Thank you for such responses as you have given, I only regret that you were not more forthcoming.
Forthcoming responses were already given, although the validity of the noting appreciation is questioned since one does not need to go out of the way to give comments that are akin to accusations when there is no acknowledgement of what was already said. This leads to the impression that it is really you rather than others offended - and that's fine. One can simply be transparent on it.

As said before, where others were coming from was clear in the OP - whether you wish to deal with it or not. This has been emphasized multiple times as well. As the author of the video noted directly in Solar System 2.0 & Science Friction | DjSadhu.com
:



- The angle with the Galaxy is 60 degrees! At 2:55 in the video I show how this could be the result of the upward angle of the Sun’s path.

- The sun’s path around the Galaxy itself is not helical! That may be. It’s surely not a straight line, we most certainly travel above and below the galactic plane, and I would not be surprised if there were more components to this pattern. Some say it is, and connect this to electromagnetism. But it is certainly not ‘mainstream’ to think this way.

- Our solar system does not have a tail! Well, according to NASA, space.com and DiscoverMagazine, it kind of does.

- It’s only a change in frame of reference! In a way, yes. But can it be “all wrong” and at the same timeonly a change of perspective? The confusing part is that some claim the helical model is “nothing new”, and other claim it’s “all wrong”. Go figure.



Our Solar System is a Vortex showed the helical patterns of the planets over time and connected it with other helical patterns found elsewhere.

- The planets are in the wrong order! Yes, I totally screwed up two orbits right before rendering the video. Out of millions of viewers maybe 50 noticed, but they’re right. But, this should not make you not see the point.

- It’s a helix, not a vortex! Maybe, but you get the point, right? Also this should not make you not see the point.

- The sun is not like a comet! Well, it kind of is, actually. Even NASA used the term “like a comet“.

- The heliocentric model is not “wrong”! I agree that to a certain degree it is a matter of “frame of reference”, but I am still of the opinion that gives a “wrong” impression, or “incomplete” for that matter. I’m willing to take it down a notch and say there’s more to reality than the heliocentric dinner-plate diagrams. Fair enough?

- The sun does not lead the planets! In this case, you comment on the wrong video. It’s the other video that demonstrates the cone shaped model. After reading the Plait article a lot of folks rushed to comment what they just read (about 24 times “all wrong”), not even noticing that in this video the planets are nicely lined up.

- The angle with the Galaxy is 60 degrees, not 90! There is no galaxy in this video, so what angle? Maybe the angle relative to the travel direction, but more on that later. Again, reading an article, rushing, blabla, and not even looking closely.

...
Out of all these wacky ideas in the first two videos there’s only one that’s most important to me. No, it’s not whether the solar system’s path is a wobble or a helix. No, it’s not whether the sun ‘leads’ the planets or not. No, it’s not the ‘pictures of leaves’. As this guy Ché Pasa understood right away, it’s the impressionthat the standard diagram gives.

It is how we see the solar system in our mind’s eye.

For me, the difference between a stationary looking dinner plate model and this dynamic, spiraling model was too huge to ignore. If you ask anyone what they see when they think of the solar system, they will probably describe something like this:

planetsx-300x109.jpg



Obviously, I think there’s much more to it than that. Better yet, I think the helical model is quite provable. So, I decided to make another video demonstrating this helical pattern, but this time without the ‘wacky claims’. Just to get the point across: we’re moving, folks! I decided to dial it down a notch, leave out all the debatable details, no furious claims, no stepping on toes, no ‘pictures of leaves’, just the helical model. And make it art.

Here is Solar System 2.0 – a ‘new’ way of looking at our solar system. Sure, the knowledge that we’re moving may have been out there somewhere… but not the image.

G..



C’mon, now don’t tell me this was exactly how you always imagined it was.

Did you notice that from 2:05 you can actually see BOTH models? I included this shot just to show how dramatic this ‘change of perspective’ can be. Here’s the heliocentric model put into a helical frame of reference:



Although this is kind of “my own interpretation” of the 60 degree angle (no, not again!) it could work. But even if you disagree, this should not make you not see the point.

Also, did you notice there were no ‘wacky claims’ and no ‘pictures of leaves’? Don’t get me wrong here, I still believe it’s all connected, still read David Icke, still believe other woowoo stuff – it’s just not in this video. So what I would like is to see this video to be judged by its contents, and not to be debunked because the author ‘has David Icke on his site’.



“Peer review #01″

I recently had an email conversation with Rhys Taylor, an astrophysicist who also wrote an article about the first video. He’s seems like quite a nice guy with a great sense of humor. And he actually managed to see past the wacky stuff and notice something of a point. He also made his own version, and pointed out that there were similarities:

32070259.gif


He explained to me how it all had worked from ‘their’ perspective, and why everyone reacted the way they did.

I don’t think it’s fair to say that discrediting the other stuff on your website was not relevant. You made quite an explicit link between the motion of the planets and DNA and other organic structures. In effect, you claimed that your alternative source model provides evidence for a pseudo-scientific idea about the Fibonacci sequence. That was never going to go down well“.
But he also wrote: “I did, of course, get extremely annoyed by the promotion of this nonsensical alternative [cone shaped] model, but I wanted to make it absolutely clear that this helical-path business is perfectly correct.”

Sure, and I explained to him how it all had worked from my perspective, and why I made this new video. He blogged about this conversation here.

Here are some selective quotes from our conversation:

Rhys: “First, you presented the idea of helical paths as though it were some revolutionary new model. You could have very easily checked with more or less any astronomer who would have told you that we already know this is the case. True, a shiny animation did not exist to show it, but that, as I said, that doesn’t mean it wasn’t known. That doesn’t mean the video wasn’t worthwhile either, only that it should have been expressed differently. […] I do think Plait was right to call you out – even if he missed a pretty big point that the motion of the Solar System is rarely illustrated. Most of the problems with the original could, and should, have been easily prevented. It’s still a very nice rendering of the motion of the Solar System, but in context it was saying, “I’m an unqualified DJ who’s overturned all of astronomy“.

Me: “The point is how people ‘see’ the solar system. Although the helical paths may have been known to astronomers and astrophysicists (and part of the public), what people ‘see’ when they think about the solar system is in my opinion incomplete. I doubt even astronomers see the solar system like the dynamic helical system as shown in my video, even though they may have all the facts that support it. I’m really hoping this “Solar System 2.0″ concept is getting the point across without shooting the idea in the foot again. […] Since I personally experienced that “aha moment” when I first found out the diagrams I had been watching all my life told only half the story, I’m willing to be that “nutter” as long as this becomes common knowledge.”

Me: “And how come, even though the standard model is ‘correct’ and ‘complete’… you had to come up with a completely new animation to show the old model is okay? Because there was no such video… and that’s what I find annoying. “Science” quickly jumps onto the “it’s all wrong” bandwagon… and then you have to go and tinker to personally make the first “correct” version (oh the angle is a bit different) The complete model should have been out there all along! Noo, let’s debunk DjSadhu, and then make the correct version - for the first time!

Rhys: “Well, as I wrote in the article : ” What honestly surprises me is that this is so incredibly popular on the internet. If you weren’t aware that the Sun orbits the center of the galaxy – which, since the planets orbit it, necessitates that they trace out helical paths – then the education system has seriously failed. I have been accused of sounding jealous on this point, but unfortunately for me my statement is absolutely true. Honestly, it was so obvious to me that the planets trace out helical paths that I’m still amazed people find this such a revelation. Any object moving in a circular path around a moving center MUST trace out a helix. I find this so obvious I really don’t get why it needs to be stated, let alone visualised. But apparently I’m wrong, and it does. That’s why people like me and Plait are going to get pretty riled if you (intentionally or otherwise) claim that there’s something wrong with the heliocentric model – there isn’t, it’s purely a choice of reference frame.[…] The fact that the Sun and the Solar System orbit the galactic center ought to be considered as ordinary as the Earth going round the Sun. Your latest video has my full support. You’re clearly correct that large numbers of people aren’t aware that the Solar System moves through space – or if they are, they haven’t realised exactly what that means. Your video is a great way of demonstrating that.(emphasis added)

Full article here.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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So are these animations even taking in all moments of our local Galaxy & our local Super cluster?
The animations were never meant to be representative of all moments - although he was able to make an updated video on the issue you're bringing up.

 
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Michael

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They've also got the scales all wrong.
If they're trying to show accurate models, get the scales right.

As long as we're quibbling...... :)

Shouldn't the sun itself be moving in a tiny bit of a corkscrew pattern related to it orbiting around the center of mass of the solar system? It's a point located inside of the sun, so it's small and difficult to see, but as long as we're complaining..... :)
 
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pgp_protector

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As long as we're quibbling...... :)

Shouldn't the sun itself be moving in a tiny bit of a corkscrew pattern related to it orbiting around the center of mass of the solar system? It's a point located inside of the sun, so it's small and difficult to see, but as long as we're complaining..... :)
True, they should include that, given the point of the thread is that using the Sun as a reference point on the movement of our solar system isn't accurate, they they should be as accurate as possible.
 
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JacksBratt

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Looking at all these videos and trying to wrap my head around the motion of the planets as we follow the sun through it's path got me thinking. Now I cannot figure something out.

Maybe you can help.

Let's break the orbit of the earth around the sun into a basic stationary sun with a flat circular orbit of the earth around that sun.
Now, on the first day of summer, at noon, we face the sun full on.
The earth rotates once every 24 hours
The earth orbits the sun once every year.
So, here is the dilemma. If we are facing straight toward the sun at noon on the summer solstice, will we not be facing directly away from the sun exactly one half year from then? We rotate once per day, that doesn't change. So, every 24 hours we will be facing the same direction in space. However, when it is winter, facing the same way will have us facing away from the sun at what should be noon.

In the diagram below, the earth middle right, the US and Canada faces toward us with the sun to the left. One half year later, the US and Canada face toward us with the sun on our right. Rotating once every 24 hours means that our clocks would continually change or it would be totally dark at noon every half year.

Can someone explain this?

Orbital_Seasons1.jpg


earthspin.gif
 
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Michael

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Looking at all these videos and trying to wrap my head around the motion of the planets as we follow the sun through it's path got me thinking. Now I cannot figure something out.

Maybe you can help.

Let's break the orbit of the earth around the sun into a basic stationary sun with a flat circular orbit of the earth around that sun.
Now, on the first day of summer, at noon, we face the sun full on.
The earth rotates once every 24 hours
The earth orbits the sun once every year.
So, here is the dilemma. If we are facing straight toward the sun at noon on the summer solstice, will we not be facing directly away from the sun exactly one half year from then? We rotate once per day, that doesn't change. So, every 24 hours we will be facing the same direction in space. However, when it is winter, facing the same way will have us facing away from the sun at what should be noon.

In the diagram below, the earth middle right, the US and Canada faces toward us with the sun to the left. One half year later, the US and Canada face toward us with the sun on our right. Rotating once every 24 hours means that our clocks would continually change or it would be totally dark at noon every half year.

Can someone explain this?

earthspin.gif

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidereal_time

A solar day and a sidereal "day" are slightly different for the reasons that you mentioned.
 
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JacksBratt

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidereal_time

A solar day and a sidereal "day" are slightly different for the reasons that you mentioned.
So, what you are saying is that we say the earth rotates once per 24 hours, by our clocks and time pieces, but it actually rotates once per every 23 hours and 56 minutes.

This would mean every day we face a little further to the direction of rotation. Actually, we lag a bit. We lag 4 minutes in time behind the actual rotation day.

This maintains a slow constant drift in the position of any point on earth in relation to the sun which maintains the time of day with morning and night as we perceive it.

So by our clocks, 24 hours will maintain the earth time we call "noon" always facing the sun, as it orbits the sun?
 
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leftrightleftrightleft

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Let's break the orbit of the earth around the sun into a basic stationary sun with a flat circular orbit of the earth around that sun.

Okay.

Now, on the first day of summer, at noon, we face the sun full on.
The earth rotates once every 24 hours
The earth orbits the sun once every year.
So, here is the dilemma. If we are facing straight toward the sun at noon on the summer solstice, will we not be facing directly away from the sun exactly one half year from then? We rotate once per day, that doesn't change. So, every 24 hours we will be facing the same direction in space. However, when it is winter, facing the same way will have us facing away from the sun at what should be noon.

In the diagram below, the earth middle right, the US and Canada faces toward us with the sun to the left. One half year later, the US and Canada face toward us with the sun on our right. Rotating once every 24 hours means that our clocks would continually change or it would be totally dark at noon every half year.

Can someone explain this?

The length of a year is approximately 365.25 days.

So, if you take any arbitrary date and time, then 182.625 days from that moment, we will be on the opposite side of the sun.

For example, right now it is 2 pm on April 5. So, at 5 am on October 5, I will be on the opposite side of the sun.

As another example, at 12 noon on June 21, you will be on the opposite side of the sun compared to 3 am on December 21.


The key point that is confusing you is that you are equating the time of the solstice with the time of day.

The time of the solstice is independent of the time of day and is only dependent on our position relative to the sun. For example, this year (where I live), the solstice occurs at 4:36 PM. As you can see, this is no where near either noon (12 pm) or solar noon (1:36 pm)

I hope that clears up your confusion.
 
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leftrightleftrightleft

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JacksBratt

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Okay.



The length of a year is approximately 365.25 days.

So, if you take any arbitrary date and time, then 182.625 days from that moment, we will be on the opposite side of the sun.

For example, right now it is 2 pm on April 5. So, at 5 am on October 5, I will be on the opposite side of the sun.

As another example, at 12 noon on June 21, you will be on the opposite side of the sun compared to 3 am on December 21.


The key point that is confusing you is that you are equating the time of the solstice with the time of day.

The time of the solstice is independent of the time of day and is only dependent on our position relative to the sun. For example, this year (where I live), the solstice occurs at 4:36 PM. As you can see, this is no where near either noon (12 pm) or solar noon (1:36 pm)

I hope that clears up your confusion.
This would still not help. The length of orbit in days is mute...

Before I saw the post from Micheal, I would have stated that every 24 hours the earth, in the diagram, will face the same way on the page. If it is facing to the right at noon, tomorrow at noon it will face to the right. Whether it takes 60, 365 or 5000 days to orbit around the sun is of no consequence. Every 24 hours that earth will face right. So, when it gets half way through its orbit it will still be facing to the right, at noon. So, the earth, (middle left on page) will face to the right at noon and face the sun. (whatever locations that is,looks like Africa) then, one half orbit later it will face to the right and away from the sun, at noon. This messed me up.

Please see my latest post. I believe I understand. Micheal gave me some info on Sidereal days.
 
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leftrightleftrightleft

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So by our clocks, 24 hours will maintain the earth time we call "noon" always facing the sun, as it orbits the sun?

Yes. The solar day is approximately 24 hours. There is some variance of approximately 30 seconds which can accumulate to 30 minute variances throughout the year. So, for example, solar noon occurs at 1:36 PM on June 21 where I live, but at 1:18 PM on October 30. However, by January 18, 2017, the solar noon has gone back to 1:45 PM (with daylight savings correction). So, it's always within 15 minutes or so of 1:30 PM.
 
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