Other religions

[arunma]

Better question, can you even read the Talmud? Or understand it's method of discovering theoloigcal truths?

To answer your question, No. That isn't the Jesus. The two characters might have shared a common name ( That of Joshua was/is a very common name ) and some similiarties, but it ends there and in the big picture, the two persons have little in common

Pablo Christani tried to use this very story in his famous debate with Nahmanides in 1263. It didn't work then and it doesn't work now.

But Bourbon, you may be aware that when the European church persecuted the Jewish population, one of their attacks on the Jews was to censor the Talmud. The story of Yeshua ben Panderia was included. This obviously indicates that in the medieval ages, people interpreted this story as a reference to Jesus.

To answer your questions. Can I read the Talmud? Yes I can, English translations are readily available. But can I understand its theological significance? Probably not, at least not in the Jewish context you're referring to.

 

[InnerPhyre]

My big theological issue here is that one cannot claim the salvific nature of Christ's blood, while simultaneously claiming that Jews (but not Gentiles) can be saved without believing in Jesus.

I wasn't claiming that. On the flip side are you claiming that Muslims can be saved because they believe Jesus was the Messiah, but reject the gospel?

But with all due respect, why then does paragraph 842 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church say that Muslims follow in the faith of Abraham?

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]


The Catechism says that they profess to hold the faith of Abraham. It doesn't say they do.

Personally, I think that paragraph is a bunch of touchy feely nonsense though. Pope John Paul II, God rest his soul, was big on inclusivism and not so big on strict Catholic Theology. Fortunately that paragraph isn't dogma and we are not bound to agree with it.

 

[arunma]

I wasn't claiming that. On the flip side are you claiming that Muslims can be saved because they believe Jesus was the Messiah, but reject the gospel?

I don't think that anyone can reject the Gospel and live. That includes Muslims.

The Catechism says that they profess to hold the faith of Abraham. It doesn't say they do.

Personally, I think that paragraph is a bunch of touchy feely nonsense though. Pope John Paul II, God rest his soul, was big on inclusivism and not so big on strict Catholic Theology. Fortunately that paragraph isn't dogma and we are not bound to agree with it.

But I thought that the Catechism was thought to be divinely inspired. Am I in error?

By the way, I'm sorry, but I think I was a paragraph off. I said 842, didn't I? Thanks for finding the right one anyway.

 

[InnerPhyre]

No, the Catechism is not divinely inspired. It's basically a summary of what the Church believes, but it's not scripture and its not a creed. For a better idea of the way the Catholic Church views other religions, I suggest picking up Truth and Tolerance by Cardinal Razinger (Now Pope Benedict). It's an amazing book that really puts the views of the Church into perspective.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

Can I read the Talmud? Yes I can, English translations are readily available.

Then tell me. Who was Yeshu ben Stada's father?

But Bourbon, you may be aware that when the European church persecuted the Jewish population, one of their attacks on the Jews was to censor the Talmud. The story of Yeshua ben Panderia was included. This obviously indicates that in the medieval ages, people interpreted this story as a reference to Jesus.

The common European could not read the Aramiac the Talmud was written in. Infact, I doubt many Europeans could get ahold of one they wanted. What they learned about the Talmud was from Propganda with the intent to have harm done to Jews.

I don't see how this Justify's your theroy that Yeshu ben Stada is infact, some kind narrative of the Christian Jesus.

 

[psychedelicist]

Hmm. I'm still interested in shamanism but I'm mainly interested in buddhism now.

 

[urnotme]

Perhaps. But to me, this is far more preferable than a religion which claims to think nothing of Jesus.

At least judaism doesn't offer a subsitute and say the jews corrupted the old testament so they got to write it again.

 

[urnotme]

I could have sworn, that I have been told more then once by Christians of various denomnations that I am indeed hell bound, unless I accept Jesus into my heart and finally see him as the messiah.

Doesn't that make you want to accept him? Thankfully that's not our decision to make. I would hate to have to throw all the non christians into a lake of fire. Jews don't believe in hell do they? A jewish convert said you don't believe in ha satan so I assume you don't believe in hell.

 

[Talmidah]

Doesn't that make you want to accept him?

Fear of eternal torment should make us want to worship a man and call him G-d?

 

[Maize]

Personally I think that any religion which denies Jesus is false.

That wasn't the question and I'd really like if this thread did not turn into a non-Christian bashing thread. Thank you.

 

[Maize]

Namaste Maize,

i actually practice another tradition besides my own... they "overlap" a great deal in many aspects.

the other tradition i practice is Tao. in particular, the Northern Complete Reality school of Spiritual Alchemy.

what do you like to study besides your own tradition, providing that you have one?

metta,

~v

Thank you.

I can't decide. I am a Unitarian Universalist. At certain times I am more interested in one that another. For a while it was Buddhism, and now it is Christianity, which is why I am here on this forum, but I find it hard to talk to people about it because I keep getting preached to!

 

[urnotme]

Better question, can you even read the Talmud? Or understand it's method of discovering theoloigcal truths?

To answer your question, No. That isn't the Jesus. The two characters might have shared a common name ( That of Joshua was/is a very common name ) and some similiarties, but it ends there and in the big picture, the two persons have little in common

Pablo Christani tried to use this very story in his famous debate with Nahmanides in 1263. It didn't work then and it doesn't work now.

Do you even believe there was a historucal jesus of nazereth?

 

[urnotme]

The Muslim view of Jesus is totally useless. Respecting Jesus as a prophet and then rejecting everything He ever said is not respecting Him at all. The Arab pagans were better off pagans. Islam poisons the message of Christianity. Those Arab pagans might have one day come to follow Jesus. Instead, they followed a religion set up to prevent people from following Jesus's true message. As for reaching heaven, no, you will burn in hell forever. Worshipping Jesus is shirk...the worst crime in Allah's eyes.

The muslims don't reject everything jesus said or did but they reject a lot of it.

 

[Maize]

Do you even believe there was a historucal jesus of nazereth?

Please please please, don't turn this into a fighting thread! There's lots of other threads if you want to question someone's beliefs, please not here.

 

[urnotme]

Doesn't that make you want to accept him

Fear of eternal torment should make us want to worship a man and call him G-d?

That was a sarcastic joke, maybe I should have put a smiley face. Sorry if I offended you..

 

[Kaonashi]

Paganism, Shamanism, Buddhism, Taoism are the ones I'm mostly studying now along with Christian Mysticism

 

[urnotme]

Please please please, don't turn this into a fighting thread! There's lots of other threads if you want to question someone's beliefs, please not here.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to start a fight. There's too much of that going on in the threads, but I don't find a lot of threads that jews participate in and I wanted to ask one a question.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

Hiya Urnotme

Doesn't that make you want to accept him?

No!

Jews don't believe in hell do they?

Yes. It's not a lake of fire, but yes.

A jewish convert said you don't believe in ha satan so I assume you don't believe in hell.

HaSatan plays a role in Judaism as a Deceiver. I think this Jewish convert's comments speak volumes about his education in his faith prior to conversion.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

Do you even believe there was a historucal jesus of nazereth?

Sure do. He has to be somebodies' son

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

Please please please, don't turn this into a fighting thread! There's lots of other threads if you want to question someone's beliefs, please not here.

Sorry