Other Gods

[Tobias]

Most Christians don't believe other gods exist, but I do. So let me try to explain:


To the ants, I could be known as the fearsome god of death and destruction. I may not be omnipresent, but with one hand I can strike down an ant on my bookshelf, while at the same time kill another one with my other hand 5 ft away on the other side of my desk! At other times though, I am the god of provision, dropping wonderful tasty treats on the floor and on my keyboard ( ) as I snack on junk food while sitting at my computer.


To most Christians, other gods are either imaginary or are simply demons pretending to be something they are not.


But back to my analogy with the ants, a Christian ant could recognize that I exist without feeling the need to worship me. Pagan ants might think they could appease me through worship or by making sacrifices to me. A Christian ant might feel superior, knowing that these efforts are useless. Also in being aware that there is a God who created everything including even me, and that if He takes an interest in the situation then I have to obey Him too. But still, I have the power of life or death over any ant that comes near my space.

Does this make me a god? That depends I suppose on how we define the word "god". If pagan ants have been worshiping me for generations, and have named me, built temples, and written all sorts of mythology about me... then yes, I guess I would be the being they know as a god. I am most certainly not just a figment of their imagination! But if the One True God has chosen to reveal Himself to them, then there really is no comparison between me and Him.


So anyway, when I say I believe that pagan gods exist, I simply mean that I am aware that some of them are actual entities, and that people in the past (and a few in the present) have worshiped them. I can even imagine that these entities have interacted with humans, and maybe even tried to do some benevolent, altruistic things for them. I do not see where the Bible backs up popular Christian doctrine, which states that all "other" gods are demons in league with Satan, and all part of a worldwide scheme to deceive people and deprive us of our right to Salvation through Jesus Christ.

Other gods are simply the powers that be, and God has asked that we do not worship them, or place their desires for us over what He has to say.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Sounds reasonable to me.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

I am the god of provision, dropping wonderful tasty treats on the floor and on my keyboard ( ) as I snack on junk food while sitting at my computer.

Made me think of the "cargo cult" religions. The divine gift of food from the heavens.

 

[HeathenWarrior]

Interesting take on it...

When I see arguments on how many deities there are, I usually think it foolish to bicker about it. There are as many gods as you need. The "gods" that Tobias describes could also be the god of the bible as well.

But it matters not. Only love does.

 

[awitch]

Other gods are simply the powers that be, and God has asked that we do not worship them, or place their desires for us over what He has to say.

No arguments here, but a few questions...

1. Did you have to appease your former deities?
2. Was your conclusion of the Biblical deity a revelation or discovery?
3. How did your former deities take the news of your conversion?

 

[Tobias]

No arguments here, but a few questions...

1. Did you have to appease your former deities?
2. Was your conclusion of the Biblical deity a revelation or discovery?
3. How did your former deities take the news of your conversion?

God is my "former deity". I was raised Christian, and developed a very close relationship with Him lasting a couple of decades before I became aware of other gods. I'm not sure exactly what the purpose was of this revelation (which is still ongoing), be it a temptation or just a heads up on what's really going on out there.

 

[awitch]

God is my "former deity". I was raised Christian, and developed a very close relationship with Him lasting a couple of decades before I became aware of other gods. I'm not sure exactly what the purpose was of this revelation (which is still ongoing), be it a temptation or just a heads up on what's really going on out there.

I must have confused you with someone else...I thought you were a Pagan who converted to Christianity. My mistake.

 

[TG123]

Most Christians don't believe other gods exist, but I do. So let me try to explain:


To the ants, I could be known as the fearsome god of death and destruction. I may not be omnipresent, but with one hand I can strike down an ant on my bookshelf, while at the same time kill another one with my other hand 5 ft away on the other side of my desk! At other times though, I am the god of provision, dropping wonderful tasty treats on the floor and on my keyboard ( ) as I snack on junk food while sitting at my computer.


To most Christians, other gods are either imaginary or are simply demons pretending to be something they are not.


But back to my analogy with the ants, a Christian ant could recognize that I exist without feeling the need to worship me. Pagan ants might think they could appease me through worship or by making sacrifices to me. A Christian ant might feel superior, knowing that these efforts are useless. Also in being aware that there is a God who created everything including even me, and that if He takes an interest in the situation then I have to obey Him too. But still, I have the power of life or death over any ant that comes near my space.

Does this make me a god? That depends I suppose on how we define the word "god". If pagan ants have been worshiping me for generations, and have named me, built temples, and written all sorts of mythology about me... then yes, I guess I would be the being they know as a god. I am most certainly not just a figment of their imagination! But if the One True God has chosen to reveal Himself to them, then there really is no comparison between me and Him.


So anyway, when I say I believe that pagan gods exist, I simply mean that I am aware that some of them are actual entities, and that people in the past (and a few in the present) have worshiped them. I can even imagine that these entities have interacted with humans, and maybe even tried to do some benevolent, altruistic things for them. I do not see where the Bible backs up popular Christian doctrine, which states that all "other" gods are demons in league with Satan, and all part of a worldwide scheme to deceive people and deprive us of our right to Salvation through Jesus Christ.

Other gods are simply the powers that be, and God has asked that we do not worship them, or place their desires for us over what He has to say.

Thanks for an interesting post. There are other gods in the Bible, but they demand worship, do they not? What god does not demand worship, or want to be put first? Every god does that.

Yet whoever who is not God demands worship is asking people to disobey God. Who wants us to disobey God and turn from Him? Satan does. By worshipping these gods we give them something we ought to give to our Creator and Saviour and Redeemer and Lord. By doing so, we also do what they require us to do. Yet what they require of us is what Satan wants.

In light of this, I think it is fair to call them demons.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Thanks for an interesting post. There are other gods in the Bible, but they demand worship, do they not? What god does not demand worship, or want to be put first? Every god does that.

Not really. It's quite characteristic of the competing city-state gods of the ancient middle east (reflecting the real-world political climate), but it's hardly a universal feature.

If you think about it, you might find it quite odd that any genuine god (especially the universal omnimax deity who has no rival, anyway) would demand worship and want to be put first. I mean: what does the adulation of a bunch of sentient mammals actually signify to an entity that makes the whole universe look small (and created it to boot)?

 

[Tobias]

I think of it more as a choice of the people to worship their gods.

Most of the important things in life were considered to be under the control of one god or another. So when things went badly, like when the crops failed or natural disasters occurred, people would think that their lapsed worship of the god involved caused the problem. Eventually the governing authorities considered it prudent to make laws demanding that everyone do their part in making sacrifices to the proper gods, so that terrible things would not happen to them.

Now we realize that most of these events are caused by naturally occurring factors in the physical world. So we don't feel the need to make sacrifices to any gods out of fear of what they might do to us if we don't.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So we're talking about these gods effectively being something along the lines of Q, supremely power entities but still creaturely and sub-divine?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[smaneck]

Tobias,

I think your beliefs in this regard are consistent with what's indicated in the earliest portions of the Tanakh (Old Testament) especially where it talks about the 'sons of God.' The Hebrew people weren't told there was no other gods, but that they should only worship Yahweh. By the time we get to Deutero-Isaiah, however, the concept of God has changed such that God is now regarded as the only one there is, and those worshiped through idols have no real existence whatsoever. When we get to the New Testament other deities are treated as demonic. For instance, the baalim were minor deities worshiped by the Canaanites. But in the New Testament Baalzebub is clearly a demon if not Satan himself.

I'm inclined to stick with Deutero-Isaiah and 1 Corinthians myself.

 

[Tobias]

So we're talking about these gods effectively being something along the lines of Q, supremely power entities but still creaturely and sub-divine?

-CryptoLutheran

Actually no. I think of them more along the lines of created angels, who have free will just like we do. And instead of an absolute cosmic polarity like some imagine there is between good and evil, God and Satan, these beings are doing mostly whatever they want according to whatever seems right to them at the time.

Christians have oversimplified the spirit realm, taking away free will and imagining every single spirit is either completely obedient to God, or they are puppets of a super powered Satan that is in control of their every action. Going even further, they imagine that there are only two types of spirits on Earth, namely angels and demons. Any encounters we reportedly have with other spirits are just demons playing tricks on us again!

However, the Bible indicates that there are other gods. God Himself is quoted in the Ten Commandments talking about them, and doesn't deny their existence. But there is also the case of people inventing their own gods too. I could build a statue of a god I thought would be nice if he existed and start to worship it, but it would not be a god. Which IMO is a huge problem with Christianity, where we often make God out to be a creature from our own imaginations, and worship a Great Big Nobody instead of the True God who has revealed Himself to us!

So I see a bit of a separation between idolatry and the worship of other gods. An idol may represent another god, or it might just represent our preference of what we wish for in a god.

 

[smaneck]

Actually no. I think of them more along the lines of created angels, who have free will just like we do.

Then there is another religion which thinks the way you do besides the Jehovah Witnesses, namely Islam. (You're pouting again.)

In Islamic theology jinn are said to be creatures with free will, made from smokeless fire by Allah as humans were made of clay, among other things.[7] According to the Qur'an, jinn have free will, and ʾIblīs abused this freedom in front of Allah by refusing to bow to Adam when Allah ordered angels and jinn to do so. For disobeying Allah, he was expelled from Paradise and called "Šayṭān" (Satan). Jinn are frequently mentioned in the Qur'an: Surah 72 (named Sūrat al-Jinn) is named after the jinn, and has a passage about them. Another surah (Sūrat al-Nās) mentions jinn in the last verse.[8] The Qur'an also mentions that Muhammad was sent as a prophet to both "humanity and the jinn," and that prophets and messengers were sent to both communities.[9][10]
Similar to humans, jinn have free will allowing them to do as they choose (such as follow any religion). They are usually invisible to humans, and humans do not appear clearly to them. Jinn have the power to travel large distances at extreme speeds and are thought to live in remote areas, mountains, seas, trees, and the air, in their own communities. Like humans, jinn will also be judged on the Day of Judgment and will be sent to Paradise or Hell according to their deeds.[11]
Jinn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Sister of Faith]

Your theory is only about Power.
If the big body will crash the small one, then even the tiny one will crash the big one.
So if you are attacked by a virus, are you going to worship it?
I just don't agree with your theory.

 

[Tobias]

Tobias,

I think your beliefs in this regard are consistent with what's indicated in the earliest portions of the Tanakh (Old Testament) especially where it talks about the 'sons of God.' The Hebrew people weren't told there was no other gods, but that they should only worship Yahweh. By the time we get to Deutero-Isaiah, however, the concept of God has changed such that God is now regarded as the only one there is, and those worshiped through idols have no real existence whatsoever. When we get to the New Testament other deities are treated as demonic. For instance, the baalim were minor deities worshiped by the Canaanites. But in the New Testament Baalzebub is clearly a demon if not Satan himself.

I'm inclined to stick with Deutero-Isaiah and 1 Corinthians myself.

Yeah, I can see what you are saying. There does seem to be a bit of a progression of knowledge through the Bible. They start off being recognized as "other gods" in the Ten Commandments, and end up being exposed as nothing more than demons by the time Paul is writing the Epistles.

I'm not certain if Paul's conclusion includes every single god worldwide though. I've already explained how some idols could be nothing more than the craftsmanship of Man, but it would be foolish to suppose that every god known to man across the globe fits neatly into one category that somebody in the Middle East encountered and wrote about in the Bible.

I see that the Bible has given us at least three options of what an idol might be (other god/demon/nothing), but for some reason our traditional theology has simplified this to LESS information than what the Bible offers. When it really could stand to reason that with the Church expanding to the ends of the Earth we would find out MORE information, as we've encountered new stuff in places where the writers of the Bible never visited!

 

[Tobias]

Then there is another religion which thinks the way you do besides the Jehovah Witnesses, namely Islam. (You're pouting again.)

In Islamic theology jinn are said to be creatures with free will, made from smokeless fire by Allah as humans were made of clay, among other things.[7] According to the Qur'an, jinn have free will, and ʾIblīs abused this freedom in front of Allah by refusing to bow to Adam when Allah ordered angels and jinn to do so. For disobeying Allah, he was expelled from Paradise and called "Šayṭān" (Satan). Jinn are frequently mentioned in the Qur'an: Surah 72 (named Sūrat al-Jinn) is named after the jinn, and has a passage about them. Another surah (Sūrat al-Nās) mentions jinn in the last verse.[8] The Qur'an also mentions that Muhammad was sent as a prophet to both "humanity and the jinn," and that prophets and messengers were sent to both communities.[9][10]
Similar to humans, jinn have free will allowing them to do as they choose (such as follow any religion). They are usually invisible to humans, and humans do not appear clearly to them. Jinn have the power to travel large distances at extreme speeds and are thought to live in remote areas, mountains, seas, trees, and the air, in their own communities. Like humans, jinn will also be judged on the Day of Judgment and will be sent to Paradise or Hell according to their deeds.[11]
Jinn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Like human beings, the Jinn can also be good, evil, or neutrally benevolent." ---Wikipedia


I can't say I go along with the jinn idea all that much, but I do get the impression the quote above accurately describes what I've encountered with other gods. We read in the Bible that the Great White Throne Judgement doesn't happen till later on in the book of Revelation, so why do Christians just assume that angels don't have free will? Or that there are no other creatures out there besides angels, demons, God and Satan?

 

[razeontherock]

My summary on the thread:

henotheism. I'm surprised no one else has brought up this word yet, but it is the Biblical position, IMHO.

 

[smaneck]

Yeah, I can see what you are saying. There does seem to be a bit of a progression of knowledge through the Bible. They start off being recognized as "other gods" in the Ten Commandments, and end up being exposed as nothing more than demons by the time Paul is writing the Epistles.

I'm not sure they were even demons to Paul:

"4-13 In this matter, then, of eating meat which has been offered to idols, knowledge tells us that no idol has any real existence, and that there is no God but one. For though there are so-called gods both in heaven and earth, gods and lords galore in fact, to us there is only one God, the Father, from whom everything comes, and for who we live. And there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom everything exists, and by whom we ourselves are alive. But this knowledge of ours is not shared by all men. For some, who until now have been used to idols, eat the meat as meat really sacrificed to a god, and their delicate conscience is thereby injured." 1 Corinthians 8

I see that the Bible has given us at least three options of what an idol might be (other god/demon/nothing), but for some reason our traditional theology has simplified this to LESS information than what the Bible offers.

Yes, but isn't that how progressive revelation works? That earlier, more primitive conceptions are replaced by more sophisticated ones?

 

[smaneck]

henotheism. I'm surprised no one else has brought up this word yet, but it is the Biblical position, IMHO.

I think the Bible starts out from henotheistic position but later moves to a more fully monotheistic one.