OSASers must believe that God created human robots!

[FreeGrace2]

Well, as you see, I not only gave you my guess as to why everyone did not rush to post verses for the umpteenth time, but I also linked you to an explanation with verses. So, if you persist in saying that you can't find them in the Bible, or won't look at them, that's not our problem.

And I responded to that list of verses, none of which say what is being claimed.

Once more, there are no verses that teach that God chooses who will believe. He does save those who believe, though.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We're not arguing with Christians. Why then would convincing others matter when Christians hold to Christian doctrine?

So, to be clear, those who disagree with your position aren't Christians, huh? Quite an arrogant statement, imho.

 

[Blank Stair]

Edited after prayer and consultation with the HS. God be with CF in these times.

 

[Blank Stair]

So, to be clear, those who disagree with your position aren't Christians, huh? Quite an arrogant statement, imho.

God created little blue flowers to be blue and flower. ISN'T THAT AWESOME?

 

[Albion]

And I responded to that list of verses, none of which say what is being claimed.

To be clear, your "response" was to say I didn't quote from the link that listed a large number of verses that met your request.

To me, that's a pretty obvious way of saying "Don't bother me with the facts; I'm committed to saying there aren't any."

.

 

[nobdysfool]

And from a Calvinist! Thanks, NF.

However, for the many Calvinists who really do think that God chooses who will be saved, based on the logical conclusion of their understanding of election and total depravity, and their belief that regeneration precedes faith, I'd like to know WHY they think God chooses who will be saved.

I do understand the need to believe this claim, given their understanding of the above. But what verse guides their thinking on this? That is the question.

Before you do your victory dance, my point was that the replies indicated that people believed that man chooses to be saved ON HIS OWN, with no outside help. So, I was not agreeing with you at all. You want to know WHY we think that God chooses who will be saved? Because man will not choose what he hates, what he finds foolish, and what would "rob" him of the sin he loves so much. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Have you ever heard the saying, "If you want something done, you must do it yourself"? I can see that applying to God with regard to salvation. If He waited around for man to choose to be saved, He'd be waiting an awful long time.

And just to be clear, I am not a Calvinist in the classical sense of the term. There are some points and nuances of Calvinism I disagree with, and I am not a cessationist, unlike most Calvinists. So trying to label me is a waste of time.

 

[nobdysfool]

God created little blue flowers to be blue and flower. ISN'T THAT AWESOME?

Says one who knows what that is....

 

[Blank Stair]

Says one who knows what that is....

I do indeed. I see the blue flower, it's lovely, and it flowers. God is glorious in his sovereign capacity as an omniscient creator , isn't he? One that breathed his words into this dimension so that the word became Jesus, and the words of God became the Bible. Thereby insuring both avenues of communication of the truth of God's existence, and the mission of Christ in his name could not be mistaken.
Jesus came to earth to die for his sheep. He is the good shepherd. His sheep know his name and he knows them. And those would be the sheep that crave the word, feel the holy spirit fill them inside, and feel content in the spirit and truth of God that surrounds them everywhere.
There is no thing omniscience cannot know.
There is no place omnipresence cannot be.
There is no thing omnipotence cannot do.
There is no doubt God is on the throne.

Goats hate that.

 

[Marvin Knox]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑

"It would have been soooo much easier just to provide any verse that says so clearly."

Well, as you see, I not only gave you my guess as to why everyone did not rush to post verses for the umpteenth time, but I also linked you to an explanation with verses. So, if you persist in saying that you can't find them in the Bible, or won't look at them, that's not our problem.

The link you provided gives adequate support for our theology.

The normal response, without a preconceived leaning toward another view, would be to simply read them as presented- then revisit them in your own Bible - then acknowledge that the teaching is as presented.

But the people we are dealing with those have preconceived notions and another agenda concerning theology.

There are always way to twist out of the obvious meaning of scripture. God has given people plenty of room to hang themselves if they want reject the truth.

But, speaking for myself, I have gone through verses like these many times. Often I have even done it after trying to see and be fair to the other side's viewpoint.

But try as I may I simply see the overall picture presented in scripture pretty much as presented in the link you provided.

I know that the other side will say that they see things differently. But, after wrestling through these things many times myself, I've just got to believe that they are really looking at the picture with a propensity to reject what they find there if it conflicts with their current theology.

 

[^j^RaspberryAngel]

Some just like to get everyone else dancing, while they sit and watch...

Explains why they see their god as a puppetmaster doesn't it? Like father like son.

I was a moderator of a Christian forum until last year. They too had the faith box where new registrants could select their belief system.
Turns out, because someone on staff was very gifted in IT and traced the IP's of the boardtrolls who all identified as non-denominational or seeker and just so they could enter the Christians only forums and pursue their contrary perspectives on all things biblical. It didn't matter what the topic was, they'd argue the contrary and just to watch the actual Christians work to change their minds. Thinking of course they were talking to Christians the whole time.

Turns out that trace back, that took a few weeks to get them all found out, had those registered members at our forum as either staff or long serving members on three different atheist forums. Two of which had threads posted that outlined exactly how to Troll Christian Forums. We're talking step by step instructions that directed those interested to start small and then go big. Start arguing about a scripture. Then graduate to full on doctrine.
Long story short, they were all banned. While the IT genius contacted their service providers and gave them a full log and post history of their harassment of the forum. The last I heard every single one had their services suspended by their ISP.

Somehow I have a feeling there were a bunch of drop-out brats hating life in a big way when their parents got that letter in the mail.

Here then is my point. Knowing what you all know about what you've been dealing with, why don't you just save yourselves using the ignore function?
One of the nails in the coffin of our boardtrolls and what helped in their being busted was their pride in their pursuits that they couldn't keep to themselves. They'd use a different screen name when they returned to the atheist forums they were member of and brag about what they'd done at our site. Baiting the Christians and then.... and therein they'd outline everything they had argued against scripture and or doctrine. This apparently so as to give further notes to others there who may consider their own pursuits. Knowing what to do and how it worked out at our site. A lab of sorts where everyone reported back their findings.

Pathetic! But hopefully stopped to a degree with the loss of server access. Something that I would hope follows the subscriber when they seek other outlets that will let them online.

 

[Blank Stair]

Sounds eerily representative of Poe's Law. Interestingly enough, according to Conservapedia, a term and practice started here at this site in the Ethics forum.

Poe’s Law is an attempt at effective liberal internet satire and declares: “Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humour, it is impossible to create a parody of fundamentalism that someone won't mistake for the real thing.” The General Case of Poe's Law is "It is impossible to tell for certain the difference between genuine stupidity and a parody of stupidity." Poe's law was created by Nathan Poe in August of 2005 at the website christianforums.com website in the the section of their forum which focuses on creation vs. evolution debating. [4]

 

[Albion]

The link you provided gives adequate support for our theology.

The normal response, without a preconceived leaning toward another view, would be to simply read them as presented- then revisit them in your own Bible - then acknowledge that the teaching is as presented.

But the people we are dealing with those have preconceived notions and another agenda concerning theology.

There are always way to twist out of the obvious meaning of scripture. God has given people plenty of room to hang themselves if they want reject the truth.

But, speaking for myself, I have gone through verses like these many times. Often I have even done it after trying to see and be fair to the other side's viewpoint.

But try as I may I simply see the overall picture presented in scripture pretty much as presented in the link you provided.

I know that the other side will say that they see things differently. But, after wrestling through these things many times myself, I've just got to believe that they are really looking at the picture with a propensity to reject what they find there if it conflicts with their current theology.

Thank you, and of course I agree. What I've come to think is that while it is something of a breakthrough simply to get the "there is nothing in scripture" crowd to acknowledge the obvious fact that Scripture provides us with verses that seem to speak of Free Will and also others that seem to speak of Election or Eternal Security, the dispute does not come down to a matter of choosing which set of verses you think speaks most powerfully.

The next step in the understanding process is to realize that most or almost all of the verses commonly cited by FreeWillers appear to them to be saying Man has Free Will but, actually, these verses are simply reflecting upon the future of those who believe or fall away, or the consequences of doing so, not upon the "WHY" of either of them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You said this:
"
We're not arguing with Christians. Why then would convincing others matter when Christians hold to Christian doctrine?
So, to be clear, those who disagree with your position aren't Christians, huh? Quite an arrogant statement, imho."

Edited after prayer and consultation with the HS. God be with CF in these times.

So, not willing to answer the question at this time, huh.

 

[FreeGrace2]

God created little blue flowers to be blue and flower. ISN'T THAT AWESOME?

OK, clear enough. Not willing to answer the question. No further questions, your honor.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Before you do your victory dance, my point was that the replies indicated that people believed that man chooses to be saved ON HIS OWN, with no outside help.

Could you point to 1 or 2? I seem to have missed that. I can't believe that any believer would think that, frankly. Are they ignorant of the Holy Spirit who convicts of sin, righteousness and judgment, per John 16:8.

So, I was not agreeing with you at all. You want to know WHY we think that God chooses who will be saved? Because man will not choose what he hates, what he finds foolish, and what would "rob" him of the sin he loves so much. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

And a false one at that. Where does one read about God making the choice for Cornelius? And what verse SAYS or TEACHES that God chooses who will be saved? If that were true, we're all reduced to puppets having our strings jerked. Nothing more. The Bible does NOT teach that.

Have you ever heard the saying, "If you want something done, you must do it yourself"? I can see that applying to God with regard to salvation.

He is the One who saves, for sure. But He doesn't choose who will believe, or we're just puppets on a string.

If He waited around for man to choose to be saved, He'd be waiting an awful long time.

Nonsense, imho. Show me the verse that supports this fantasy.

 

[Albion]

He is the One who saves, for sure. But He doesn't choose who will believe, or we're just puppets on a string.

Now THAT conclusion, although common among people who don't really know what Predestination means, is ridiculous. It is a non-sequitur. There is no reason to say that if we are predestined, it makes us "just puppets on a string."

Not only do those who teach and believe in Election NOT believe such a thing, but it has nothing to do with Predestination anyway.

Predestination refers to our being saved or not being saved; it does not refer to which college we decide to attend or whom we marry or whether we become lawyers or plumbers. None of that. Look at the word.

PRE DESTINED. Destination...that means heaven or hell, not what's our preference in vacation spots!

What you're doing there is confusing Predestination with Fatalism.

OK now?

 

[EmSw]

Now THAT conclusion, although common among people who don't really know what Predestination means, is ridiculous. It is a non-sequitur. There is no reason to say that if we are predestined, it makes us "just puppets on a string."

Not only do those who teach and believe in Election NOT believe such a thing, but it has nothing to do with Predestination anyway.

Predestination refers to our being saved or not being saved; it does not refer to which college we decide to attend or whom we marry or whether we become lawyers or plumbers. None of that. Look at the word.

PRE DESTINED. Destination...that means heaven or hell, not what's our preference in vacation spots!

What you're doing there is confusing Predestination with Fatalism.

OK now?

Predestination has to do with destiny, or fate (both mean the same thing). God decides man's destiny, or fate before man even exists. So yes, the reference to puppets is very reasonable.
Can a puppet do otherwise than what was decided for him?
Can man do otherwise than what was predestined for Him?

 

[Albion]

Predestination has to do with destiny, or fate (both mean the same thing).

Wrong. Predestination is a theological term, and on a religious forum discussing the matter, that's the meaning we're using. Fatalism has quite a different meaning.

God decides man's destiny, or fate before man even exists. So yes, the reference to puppets is very reasonable.

No, it's not. One's fate and having no free will in any of even the most mundane decisions we all make every day are two totally different concepts. If my fate were to die at a certain age and go to hell, there is no presumption in that of my every choice and action up to that time being made for me by someone else.

Can a puppet do otherwise than what was decided for him?

No, but we're not talking about puppetry when we talk about Predestination. The word itself doesn't even suggest such a thing. Pre Destination. One's destination is not one's every action in life.

Can man do otherwise than what was predestined for Him?

What is predestined is the ability (or not) to accept Christ and be saved.

Incidentally, the question of the thread concerns "OSASers," not believers in Predestination. Those two concepts are not identical either.

 

[EmSw]

Wrong. Predestination is a theological term and on a religious forum discussing the matter, that's what we're talking about. Fatalism has quite a different meaning, which you should sense if you just look at the word and think about it for a moment.

I've seen this many times; certain folks making their own definitions for words. The Reformed people are famous for this. When you make your own definitions, you can make the Bible say what you want it to, and this is certainly true on this forum.

Theologically, predestination means God ordains all things. Now we have to deal with the definition of 'ordain'. Theologically, it means to determine or appoint beforehand. Now we have to determine what 'determine' means. Determine means to decide, settle, or establish.

If we carry this out, we see God decides beforehand how all things are established. This is called the destiny of all things, and destiny is the same thing as fate. If we look to the definition of fate, we find this - The supposed force, principle, or power that predetermines events. (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fate)

No, it's not. One's fate and having no free will in any of even the most mundane decisions we all make every day are two totally different things. If my fate were to die at a certain age and gho to hell, there is no presumption in that of my every choice and action up to that day being made feor me by someone else.

How is free will established when all things are determined beforehand? Can man do otherwise than what was predestined? If he can't, then his fate is decided for him. Can a reprobate do otherwise than what was appointed for him?

You stated the above bolded statement. I ask you, did you make those choices with no influence from a supposed power that determines events, or were they predestined by God in the beginning?

 

[Albion]

I've seen this many times; certain folks making their own definitions for words. The Reformed people are famous for this. When you make your own definitions, you can make the Bible say what you want it to, and this is certainly true on this forum.

Theologically, predestination means God ordains all things.

It certainly is NOT what the OP asked about, and that's what I'm willing to discuss, not something off topic.