OSAS? What do you believe?

[Qoheleth]

Okay, thanks, dont be direct, be clever. If I missed it I suppose it doesnt matter, I must be slow tonight. Thanks anyhow

 

[Azaka]

Connie,

Regarding forsaking of sins, what about the jailer who asked what he needed to do to be saved? How do you explain that answer? That is that he only needs to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Well, I believe putting faith in (or believing on) Christ implies forsaking sins (turning from sins to turn toward Christ). Repentence, I believe, goes hand-in-hand with faith. They are inseparable.

I do agree that the Holy Spirit changes us, but that comes first. We cannot throw off the sin that so easily entangles us without first knowing Christ's love.

That is very true! The Holy Spirit's loving and powerful influence on man is essential to his being freed from sin to believe on Christ and live a holy life. But I believe whatever God does for sinners in bondage to sin, he does for all sinners in bondage to sin (the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men). It is our response to his love and mercy that ultimately determines whether God saves us or not. And this continues, I think, throughout a Christian's life. I think God desires that all people believe on Christ and persevere in the faith, but he does not force them to do anything against their will.

Also, how is Christianity any different from other religions if it is also works based?

Well, I never said it was works-based. It is faith-based, and relational. But a relationship must be maintained. God loved us first and initiated the relationship, but we must love him back. Sin is the opposite of love, because it seeks to gratify itself. Love is all about others, and their best interest. Love expresses itself in faithfulness toward the beloved. To love God is to be faithful and loyal to him, just as he loves us and is forever faithful to us. He wants us to be his covenant partners, but he does not force his love on us in any way, because then it would cease to be love.

One last question, What saved the thief on the cross?

Luke 23
39Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us."
40But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation?41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." 42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
43And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Repentance, like faith (and even sin) is a choice one makes. It is only action that results from the choice already made. Admitting that you are in the wrong and that God is in the right is what the choice of repentance means, which, given the opportunity, will result in turning from sins previously committed. It appears as if the thief on the cross was already repentant of his past life as a criminal, and realized his guilt, as well as the innocence of Jesus. He then placed his full faith in Christ, that he would remember him when he entered his kingdom. Christ then responded to the thief's sincere and humble faith by promising him salvation.

When I said mess up, I meant just that, mess up. I mean when we sin in thought word or deed without forethought.

It is only willful, deliberate sins that will separate us from God if we don't turn to Christ for forgiveness. Unintentional mistakes are just that: unintentional mistakes.

In Christ,
Azaka

 

[Connie_33]

Azaka,
Hi, it's me again. I'm a little confused. I went back and read your post on page 17 and saw you quoted Hebrews 10:26-27. Is that your proof text for 'losing' salvation, or are you saying someone can repent from willful sins as well? Like I said, it's not clear to me.
Thanks.

 

[Ben johnson]

The Bible is clear that faith is a gift from God and that there are differing degrees of this faith.

Strongly disagree. There are different kinds of faith; there is a "measure of faith given to all believers", Rom12:3. There is a "spiritual-gift-faith", that is given to ONE and not to ANOTHER (1Cor12:9). But, if we specify, "SAVING-faith", or "saving-belief" --- that is purely, 100%, from the individual --- and no verse suggests otherwise.

"With the HEART man BELIEVES" Rom10:10.
"Obedient from the HEART" Rom6:17.
"You knew the sacred Scriptures, which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to faith through Jesus, to salvation". 2Tim3:15

Look at the structure of Rom10 --- it says, "faith comes from HEARING" (reflecting perfectly 2T%im3:15); then it says, "how can they HEAR (and believe), without a preacher?" This places the onus of faith/belief (to salvation), COMPLETELY on them. If faith was INSTILLED, then God would make SURE that the chosen heard and BELIEVED. The very existence of "how shall they believe in what they have not heard, how shall they hear without a preacher" --- destroys the idea of "saving-faith-instilled-by-God".

Because "saving-faith" originates with us, perseverance lies on our shoulders also. Not "perseverance by our own muscle and sinew, but perseverance with His power through OUR faith/belief". 1Pet1:5. And this fits perfectly with passages such as James 5:19-20, which speaks of those who are SAVED, but fall from salvation!

It also fits with 1Tim4:16, Jude21, 2Pet1:5-11, and many, MANY others....

 

[Azaka]

Azaka,
Hi, it's me again. I'm a little confused. I went back and read your post on page 17 and saw you quoted Hebrews 10:26-27. Is that your proof text for 'losing' salvation, or are you saying someone can repent from willful sins as well? Like I said, it's not clear to me.
Thanks.

No one "loses" their salvation - they forfeit it. And I don't believe that when we do forfeit what we once possessed by willfully sinning that it's a done deal and we will never experience fellowship with God ever again. I doubt very seriously that God just throws his hands in the air and gives up on us - while there may certainly come a time when, after having rejected the convicting influence of his Spirit over a long period of time, he gives us over to our lusts, I do not think one wilful sin will cut us off from repentance (while his Spirit is still pursuing us). While willfully sinning does mean you are no longer abiding in Christ or fellowshipping with his Spirit (and thus you are no longer "secure"), it's not a permanent state one must remain in, and I think God does everything he can short of overriding our own will to draw us back. Nothing outside of ourselves can separate us from God - he will keep a firm grip on us; we must choose to remain in this grip.

In Christ,
Azaka

 

[Ben johnson]

Well said, Azaka. Many verses speak of our own responsibility --- such as Romans 8:12 ("We are under obligation to walk, not after the flesh, which is death --- but if by the Spirit we are putting to death the things of the flesh, WE WILL LIVE"); and Col1:21-23 ("He will present you before God holy and blamess and beyond reproach, IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from the HOPE of the Gospel --- not be moved away from Jesus!") The only place Scripture speaks about "not-coming back", is Heb6:4-6; and that one plainly says, "won't WANT to repent, WHILE falling away" --- in no way does it contradict Rom11:23, "if they do not CONTINUE in their unbelief, they will be grafted in again...:

Well, I never said it was works-based. It is faith-based, and relational. But a relationship must be maintained. God loved us first and initiated the relationship, but we must love him back. Sin is the opposite of love, because it seeks to gratify itself. Love is all about others, and their best interest. Love expresses itself in faithfulness toward the beloved. To love God is to be faithful and loyal to him, just as he loves us and is forever faithful to us. He wants us to be his covenant partners, but he does not force his love on us in any way, because then it would cease to be love.

Exactly that; this is why the subject is important to me. If it is GOD that initiates, completes and perseveres me, then that is a very different approach and attitude I will have, than if He calls me and I am responsible to receive Him and abide in Him. James says "draw near to God and He will draw near to you". Please read 1Tim4:16 and tell me if you see any OSAS in that...

No one "loses" their salvation - they forfeit it.

Exactly that. Please read Heb3:12-14 & 4:1, and tell me if that doesn't say in black-n-white terms that we CAN become deceived, hardened by sin, to unsalvation...

 

[rnmomof7]

Well said, Azaka. Many verses speak of our own responsibility --- such as Romans 8:12 ("We are under obligation to walk, not after the flesh, which is death --- but if by the Spirit we are putting to death the things of the flesh, WE WILL LIVE");

In fact it offers a way that we (and others )are assured that we are saved.
Does that scripture say you will lose your salvation in that verse?

Rom 8:10
And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.



Rom 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.



Rom 8:12
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.



Rom 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.



Rom 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.



Rom 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.



Rom 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

The only place Scripture speaks about "not-coming back", is Heb6:4-6; and that one plainly says, "won't WANT to repent, WHILE falling away" --- in no way does it contradict Rom11:23, "if they do not CONTINUE in their unbelief, they will be grafted in again...:

Exactly that; this is why the subject is important to me. If it is GOD that initiates, completes and perseveres me, then that is a very different approach and attitude I will have, than if He calls me and I am responsible to receive Him and abide in Him.

Yes it is different, it would mean that salvation is under the control of God and not men .

Was Paul saved in your opinion?
He said he was a sinner (not past tense, but current)

Jo 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Hbr 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.



Hbr 9:24
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Ben , you are a good guy, but I think I will trust the promises of Christ to me

Jhn 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.



Jhn 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.



Jhn 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.




Jhn 10:29
My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.Jhn 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


1. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because of the nature of salvation: (1) Salvation is eternal (Jn. 3:16,36). (2) Salvation is a present possession (Ro. 5; 1 Pe. 2:24-25). (3) Salvation is by imputation and substitution (2 Co. 5:17; Ga. 2:20; He. 9:10; Ro. 3:24). (4) Salvation is positional (Ep. 1:3 -- “in Christ”; Ro. 6:7; Col. 2:10; 3:1-4,12). (5) Salvation is not of human merit; it is a free gift of grace which cannot be mixed with works (Ep. 2:8-9; ***. 3:3-7; Ro. 3:19-28; 4:4-5; 11:6).

2. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because of the results of salvation: (1) Eternal life (Jn. 3:16). (2) Justification (Ro. 5:1; 3:19-28). (3) Peace with God (Ro. 5:1). (4) Sure possession of future glory (Ro. 5:2; Col. 3:1-4). (5) Salvation from future wrath (Ro. 5:9). (6) Raised up with Christ (Ro. 6). (7) Blessed with all spiritual blessings in Christ (Ep. 1:3). (8) Sealed with the Holy Spirit (Ep. 4:30). (9) Passed from darkness to light (Col. 1:12-14).

3. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because of the teaching of election: Election does not destroy human responsibility (2 Th. 2:10-13; Ac. 13:46,48), but election does promise security for the believer (Ro. 8:28-39; Ep. 1; 1 Pe. 1:2-7).

4. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because lack of good works involves loss of rewards and fruitfulness, not loss of one’s eternal relationship with Christ (1 Co. 3:15; ***. 3:14; 2 Jn. 8).

5. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because of the believer’s union with Christ. The believing sinner is placed “in Christ” and stands or falls with Him (Col. 1:14; Eph. 1-3 -- “in Christ” mentioned 25 times; He. 9:10; 1 Pe. 1:18-23; 2:6,24-25).

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/eternalsecurity.htm

 

[Ben johnson]

Hello, RnMom. Predictably, I disagree with some of your post; may I show you a few points?

In fact it offers a way that we (and others )are assured that we are saved.
Does that scripture say you will lose your salvation in that verse?

Rom 8:10
And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness

This is a reference to the "flesh" --- meaning, "old sin nature". So many other verses plainly state that "we are, IN HIM, righteous" --- please see 1Jn3:7-10 for the best --- that we cannot read Rom8:10 to mean "one can be BODILY SINNING but still be saved". Read Rom6:11-18 --- our BODY clearly is PRESENTED (by choice) to Him, rather than to sin.

Rom 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

And yet, that 1Jn3 passage boldly declares that we are RIGHTEOUS. (Specifically, Jesus' righteousness now INDWELLS us --- see 2Cor5:21). Thus --- there is no such thing as "backslidden-sinning-saved". Not in a "sinning-continually" sense...

Yes it is different, it would mean that salvation is under the control of God and not men .

Was Paul saved in your opinion?
He said he was a sinner (not past tense, but current)

Yes Paul was saved; but verses like 1Cor9:27 clearly present his salvation af forfeitable.

Jhn 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jhn 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And yet, context (like Jn17:6) clearly show belief in God BEFORE He gave them to Jesus --- this whole passage mirrors John14:1, and Jn8:42; it asserts Jesus' authority, validity, equality with God. In saying, "God gives you to Me" --- He simply is saying, "Believing in me IS BELIEVING IN GOD". Nothing more, nothing less. There is no "given-to-Me-and-THEN-they-believe"...

1. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because of the nature of salvation:

Salvation is by BELIEF. Voluntary belief, not "belief-instilled-by-God". True beleif, can become unbelief. Tell me how you read Heb3:12-14, and James 5:19-20.

2. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because of the results of salvation:

Again, it's all based on BELIEF; and we can "become deceived to unbelief, by sin". Please explain in your own words James 1:14-16, 1Tim4:1. And perseverance is charged to us, personally --- please explain 1Tim4:16, Heb6:11-12, Col1:23, 2Pet1:10-11 and 3:14 & 17.

3. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because of the teaching of election: Election does not destroy human responsibility (2 Th. 2:10-13; Ac. 13:46,48), but election does promise security for the believer (Ro. 8:28-39; Ep. 1; 1 Pe. 1:2-7).

The promise of security conditions on belief. If there is human responsibility, what are we responsible about?

4. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because lack of good works involves loss of rewards and fruitfulness, not loss of one’s eternal relationship with Christ (1 Co. 3:15; ***. 3:14; 2 Jn. 8).

You silly! You cannot abbreviate "Titus", or the filter will get you!
1Cor3:15 I take as parallel to 1Pet1:6-7 --- "fire" is "trials", that REFINE us. And 2Jn1:9 is the CONSEQUENCE of verse 8 --- it is a real warning against FALLING-FROM-SALVATION. "Full Reward", reflects Col3:24, where salvation itself is "the reward". It does not make sense to say "sinfulness can lose you CROWNS but not SALVATION" -- I assure you that sinfulness and salvation CANNOT coexist.\ Re-read 1Jn3:7-10, then Eph5:5-6, and stir in Gal5:19-21 and 1Cor6:9-11, until the harmony is seen. Sinfulness and unrepentance CANNOT see Heaven.

5. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because of the believer’s union with Christ. The believing sinner is placed “in Christ” and stands or falls with Him (Col. 1:14; Eph. 1-3 -- “in Christ” mentioned 25 times; He. 9:10; 1 Pe. 1:18-23; 2:6,24-25).

Don't forget 2Cor13:5 --- we are to TEST ourselves to see if we are IN CHRIST! This is PRECISELY what Peter labors to convey in 2:1:5-11.

You see, RnMom, it's all by BELEIF; as Romans1:17 says, "from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith". Contextually, with the whole, "saving-faith that's charged to US, OUR diligence IN HIM, OUR abiding IN HIM, our walking in Him. See 1Jn2:26-29, Col2:6, Col1:23, 2Pet3:14 & 17, on and on.

Ben , you are a good guy, but I think I will trust the promises of Christ to me

You are a godly woman, Rn. There is no doubt! And I BELIEVE that you trust the promises of Christ. I hope to bring you to a better understanding of exactly what those promises ARE.

Since you quoted so much from Hebrews, perhaps you would enjoy the summary that resides in the appendix of my book, "Hebrews on OSAS".

Hebrews on OSAS:
•Watch ourselves lest we drift away; how shall we escape if we forsake so great a salvation? (ch2)
•Be careful that you not be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from the living God; we have become partners in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end. (ch3) (can you deny the “IF”?)
•Be wary, while a promise remains of entering His rest, lest any of YOU seem to have come short of it. (ch4)
•You should be TEACHERS but you still need MILK (ch5)
•Those who REJECT Christ will not WANT to repent; they are CONTEMPTUOUS (ch6)
•Be diligent SO AS to have full assurance of hope until the end, THAT you're not sluggish but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises." (ch6)
•If we continue sinning willfully after having TRULY RECEIVED Christ, we invalidate His sacrifice and expect only hellfire; severe punishment to one who has trampled underfoot Jesus, and regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he WAS SANCTIFIED (know any way to get sanctified by the blood of the covenant APART from salvation?) And has insulted the Spirit. Therefore, do not throw away JESUS! ("confidence" in 10:35 is JESUS: see Heb6:19, 10:19) You have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive the Promise. (ch10)
•Let us lay aside every encumbrance and sin which so easily ENTANGLES us, and run the race, fixing our eyes on Jesus the MODEL ("archegos") and CHIEF EXAMPLE ("teleiotes" --- NOT "the AUTHOR and FINISHER") of our faith. It is for discipline that you endure; but if you are WITHOUT discipline (if you REJECT His discipline), you are illegitimate children and not sons. Make straight the paths of your feet, so that the limb which is lame may be healed, rather than worsened. See to it no one comes short of (FAILS!) the grace of God, see that no root of bitterness spring up, causing trouble, DEFILING MANY; let there be no immoral person like Esau who SOLD his birthright for a meal and THEN desired to inherit but lost. See that you do not refuse Him who is speaking; for if they did not escape who refused the EARTHLY warning, much less will WE escape WHO TURN AWAY FROM HIM WHO WARNS FROM HEAVEN! (ch12)

Where in ALL of Hebrews is "OSAS"?