OSAS Question

[eldermike]

Not all baptists believe in OSAS. The "never truly saved" arguement is lame. Ultimately it means you really can't trust anyone because they may not be saved and could just be someone being used by satan and living a lie. Maybe 90% of the "christians" you ever knew were faking it. Maybe that minister or teacher you learned under wasn't really saved. Maybe none of us are really saved. See where this line of thought leads?

And yet the OSAS are strong advocates of the "you can really know that you are saved". So you can "know" you are saved, and then really not be.

Are you saying that you are being taught by people that might get saved?

 

[MrJim]

Are you saying that you are being taught by people that might get saved?

The possibility is there according to OSAS. The preacher teaching Bible may not be saved at all even though he says he is. And since that may be, he's not indwelt with the Spirit and is teaching from the flesh...

Sounds to me since that "they were never saved to begin with" hangs out there the OSAS need to continually "work out their salvation with fear and trembling" just as much as the rest of us. Hey, everyone knows someone that "seemed" to be saved and backslid into perdition...examples abound.

 

[mesue]

...
And yet the OSAS are strong advocates of the "you can really know that you are saved". So you can "know" you are saved, and then really not be.

I can really know that I'm saved, I can't really know that you are saved. I am not equipped to tell if someone with vast Biblical knowledge is saved.
Satan knows the Bible better than I, is he saved? God knows the heart. God knows my heart, I know my heart. I know I'm saved, but you can't know my heart.

 

[seebs]

In my experience, at least some people who think they know their hearts are wrong. I have been one before, and probably will again.

 

[mesue]

In my experience, at least some people who think they know their hearts are wrong. I have been one before, and probably will again.

Was it a period of doubt or guilt?
How can you not know your own heart?
Sometimes my head plays games with me, but not my heart.
My head will tell me that I deserve hell, I can't really believe that I am going to Heaven. I broke all 10 of the top ten commandments and probably 80% of the remaining 603. There's no way I'll ever enter into the joy of the Lord.
My heart says Jesus covered all of my sin with His blood. I am forgiven. I have called upon the name of the Lord and I am saved. Soon my head answers "Oh yeah, I did do that."

 

[seebs]

Was it a period of doubt or guilt?

Not particularly. Well, depending on how you define it, I'm currently probably about halfway through a period of doubt that started around the first time I used my lungs; I was made to be a skeptic.

But guilt? No.

How can you not know your own heart?

I have no idea. I merely know that sometimes when I think I know my heart on an issue, I later find that my views have changed.

I know many people who said all the same things you or I might say about faith, and a couple of years later, were not believers.

If they can be mistaken, then so can I.

My head will tell me that I deserve hell, I can't really believe that I am going to Heaven. I broke all 10 of the top ten commandments and probably 80% of the remaining 603. There's no way I'll ever enter into the joy of the Lord.

Then you should read Romans 8:38-39.

My heart says Jesus covered all of my sin with His blood. I am forgiven. I have called upon the name of the Lord and I am saved. Soon my head answers "Oh yeah, I did do that."

Cool.

But nonetheless, some people experience confidence and certainty about their state, then later realize they were wrong. I have more than once been quite sure I was genuinely in love when I just had a crush.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

So are all of our sins forgiven the moment we become saved? Or do we still need to ask forgiveness for our sins after we are already saved?

 

[seebs]

So are all of our sins forgiven the moment we become saved? Or do we still need to ask forgiveness for our sins after we are already saved?

Le me give this the most definite answer I can: I have no idea.

I do not know whether or not I need to seek forgiveness for sins, or whether my Get Out Of Hell Free card works anyway.

I do know that it is very edifying to me to seek to understand my transgressions, and that a policy of seeking forgiveness helps me remember to do this.

 

[seebs]

Are you saying that you are being taught by people that might get saved?

I missed this question before. I have been taught a great deal by many people whose relationship to God is a pure mystery to me. I rely on the Spirit to show me the lessons they have for me. I know that there are people whose hostility to Christianity has not kept them from insights into the nature of love that I have found edifying.

 

[mesue]

... I have more than once been quite sure I was genuinely in love when I just had a crush.

That's because love, the life long marrying kind, is a decision. I have to decide daily to love my husband. Most days it's easy, because he's so likable. But somedays we just argue, like most married couples, I suppose. Love goes through stages like most people do. In the beginning it's more a "feeling" thing, then it grows into something more deeper. But with the growing comes growing pains. I think the same goes with our walk the Lord.

 

[MrJim]

I can really know that I'm saved, I can't really know that you are saved. I am not equipped to tell if someone with vast Biblical knowledge is saved.
Satan knows the Bible better than I, is he saved? God knows the heart. God knows my heart, I know my heart. I know I'm saved, but you can't know my heart.

Problem is that those no longer walking with God knew in their heart they were really saved too. One day you may be a statistic--another that was on fire for Christ and then turned away (God forbid ), but the point I'm getting at is that "they were never really saved to begin with" doesn't hold water.

 

[mesue]

Problem is that those no longer walking with God knew in their heart they were really saved too.

Or did they?

One day you may be a statistic--another that was on fire for Christ and then turned away (God forbid ),

doubtful. I was already an unbeliever.

 

[MbiaJc]

I caught up with a friend I knew back in High School. We were in the same bible study group together and went to the same baptist church. He, like myself was a hardcore Christian back then.

Now, today he is not a believer. He said he doesn't believe in God anymore. How does the doctrine of "Once Saved, Always Saved" work for him?

I gave two extreme examples, just to see what it would be in those cases.

He was saved, he had Jesus in his life. We went door to door passing out tracts, if you'd have asked me 7 years ago was he "saved" I would have said of course he was.

I used to believe in OSAS when I was baptist, that's why I'm asking here

I am not the judge here, but let me give you some scripture. YOur friend is on some dangerous ground I think.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit. Heb 6:4 For itis impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


If he fits this bunch here I would say there is no need to pray for him.

As far as your two questions goes, David commited murder and was forgiven. He had to suffer the consiquences of his sins. However David never quit believing in God.

 

[ZiSunka]

I caught up with a friend I knew back in High School. We were in the same bible study group together and went to the same baptist church. He, like myself was a hardcore Christian back then.

Now, today he is not a believer. He said he doesn't believe in God anymore. How does the doctrine of "Once Saved, Always Saved" work for him?

A person who has saving faith in Christ perseveres in the faith. Although a person might fall away for a season, in their heart and mind, they are still a believer and follower of Christ, a person who looks to Christ to be his savior.

Someone who falls away and doesn't even believe in God anymore never knew God, never had saving faith in him, even if they went through all the motions of being a Christian and had zeal for Christianity. He never experienced the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that makes it impossible to deny Christ.

Once you know true saving faith in Christ, you can never really not believe in him anymore because saving faith makes your heart and spirit alive through the indwelling of Christ. A person who leaves the faith and denies God never had new life at all.

 

[ZiSunka]

So are all of our sins forgiven the moment we become saved? Or do we still need to ask forgiveness for our sins after we are already saved?

It's different than you are thinking. You don't get saved because all your sins are wiped off the books, your sins get wiped off the books because of your saving faith in Christ that saves you. Our faith in God and Christ's atoning death is accounted to us as righteousness, that is, God sees us as being righteous because of our faith in Him, not because we repent all our sins. There is no need to make a laundry list of sins and repent them all one by one because forgiveness isn't what confers grace to us. God's mercy and acceptance of our faith in him is what confers grace to us. It's all God's doing, and not an achievement on our parts.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

Thanks for your answers everyone!

 

[JPPT1974]

Problem is that those no longer walking with God knew in their heart they were really saved too. One day you may be a statistic--another that was on fire for Christ and then turned away (God forbid ), but the point I'm getting at is that "they were never really saved to begin with" doesn't hold water.

God will only turn you away if you didn't accept His one and only begotten Son into your heart and live as your Savior & Lord.