OSAS Part II

[Ben johnson]

If someone gives me a car, rather than that I earn it, the car can't be lost. Piffle.

Ha ha he! (Excellent post!)

Php1:29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him...

Granted, behalf, "Charizomai, Uper--graciously forgive or pardon, on-behalf-of (Christ)". Where does this say "unilaterally"? Where is the contradiction of "to those who BELIEVED"? [quote2Thess2:]13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.[/quote]OK, "God chose us from the beginning". Says so in Eph1:4, & Jn15:16 too. And yet, in Jn15:6, it says, "If anyone does NOT ABIDE in Me, he is cast off as a dried branch and ...cast into the fire". How can this be? Did He choose us to Him, or are we saved by His grace, through our own faith? The answer is---yes.

In Matt22:1-14 is clear explanation, in the parable of the wedding feast. Who, at the end, ended up "having been called"? Everyone. The first, declined. The 2nd accepted. The 2nd became the chosen. All but ONE, who refused to "clothe himself in God's righteousness". He became unchosen. The key to this whole parable, is: "For many are called, but few are chosen". Who were the chosen? THEY WHO ACCEPTED THE INVITATION, AND clothed themselves with His righteousness.

So we can understand, "He chose us from the beginning to salvation through Christ", to mean that "Jesus-on-the-Cross" was God's purpose from the beginning, providing salvation for all who CHOOSE TO BELIEVE". The work of salvation, is HIS. The sacrifice and payment for salvation, is HIS---complete and sufficient by the Cross. But---it is only REALIZED, by those who BELIEVE and ACCEPT HIM!

You cannot just search for verses that "prove" predestined-election, or "prove" eternal salvation; first, you have to deal with all of the Scriptures that very clearly speak of warnins to "not fall from salvation". Else, you are only espousing contradictions in the Bible.

(And please post chapter and book when quoting verses...)

 

[Thunderchild]

Quite correct, Optimus. In point of fact, there were some who fell away for a time, and returned. Others fell away, and refused to return.

We see that same position with Judas and Peter. Peter returned. Yet he fell away again, as shown by his falling in with the circumcision party, and returned yet again. Falling away isn't the problem, failing to return is.

The Old Testament is quite clear - if a man walks righteously all his life, and yet at the last falls away to do what is evil, his righteous deeds will not be remembered. If a man walks in evil all his life, and at the last turns to call upon the name of the Lord, his evil will not be remembered.

Withal, the message is clear enough - what we were counts for nothing, what we are is all important. Are we God's people, or not? According to Jesus, there is no middle ground.

Though there is progression from one state to the other according to the Biblical record, with falls and stumbling on the way, it comes down to whether one chooses to recover from a fall or stumble. Sin has no dominion over a person who refuses to allow place for it - he may fall again in the same or different ways, but with the continual striving to walk by the spirit, success will eventually come. But the one who submits to sin is a slave to sin - and the one who submits to God is a slave to God. What was it Jesus said?
"Noone can serve two masters"

The person who in the here and now is sinning is indulging in idolatory, and does not hear the voice of Christ - and will continue to not hear the voice of Christ until the decision is made to stop the sinning. Those who hear the voice of Christ are saved. It is all so very clear.

 

[LouisBooth]

"If someone gives me a car, rather than that I earn it, the car can't be lost."

If salvation was not a spiritual thing I would agree. But salvation is a spiritual thing, spiritual things don't go away unless God does away with them. God doesn't take back your salvation that is plainly shown in the book of John chapter 3.

"If I don't maintain it, it will fall apart."

So its by our actions that we are made like christ huh? :lol: wow..now you're earning you way into everything. Its by God alone our relationship with him is made and kept. God is soveregn.

 

[Thunderchild]

<font color=red>

Luk 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

Jhn 15:12 - 14 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Col 1:21-23 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Hbr 3:13 -14 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

1Jo 3:2 - 3 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

 

[LouisBooth]

Luk 8:21 I think you need to read the story about the lamp in verses 16-18. True faith shows itself.

"Jhn 15:12 - 14 " Same as above. True faith shows itself. The showing isn't the saving thing though. Look at verse 3 and 4 and maybe that will help you get the meaning of this passage.

Rom 2:13 The point of this verse is to show that no one can keep the law fully, not about salvation. Look at verse 1.

Col 1:21-23 hmm..didn't see anything there. That verse is talking about the hope you put in God for your salvation. Those that don't trust God are not saved. He is saying trust God for your salvation, God doesnt' fail..hence the statements in verses 15-17...Paul is talking about how great God is..setting up the we can trust him statement in verse 23.

Hbr 3:13 -14 Just read verse 12..enough said.

1Jo 3:2 - 3 didn't see anything in this verse to explain. It doesn't contradict OSAS it affrims it.

 

[Optimus_P]

I dont know if maintain is the proper word BUT, after all is it not by faith and grace we are saved. How do you obtain these?

1) grace is obtained thru baptism (the receaveing of the holy spirit) in makeing the unclean; clean.
2) by beliving in Jesus Christ
2a) by showing your faith thru works (obediance is only shown thru your actions)

so in a sense of action vs. non-action. You must act thru your faith for faith alone is dead.

on the side note. i would say yes I think OSAS is true.

 

[Thunderchild]

No man lights a lamp to put it under a bushel basket.


Col 1:21-23 <font color=red> And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; </font>

Hebrews 3:12-14 <font color=red> Take care, brethren, lest there should be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called today, lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we (!) hold fast the beginning of our(!) assurance firm until the end </font>

1Jo 3:2 - 3 <font color=red> Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself(!), even as he is pure. </font>

Luke 8:16-18 <font color=red> Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed; but he PUTS it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light. For nothing is hidden that shall not become evident, nor anything secret that shall not be known and come to light. Therefore take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him shall more be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him. </font> hmmmm. now where have I seen those words before??????? (not that I need to ask, it is all but identical to the exposition given for the parable of the talents.) Matthew 25:14-30 - the Master's Servant, who does nothing, shall be cast into the outer darkness. The talents represent faith - put it to work, and you will keep it and add to it. Leave it lying around to moulder, and it will do just that. In short - use it or lose it. Just as we see in Luke 8:16-18 - something has to done with the lamp that has been lit.

 

[LouisBooth]

"No man lights a lamp to put it under a bushel basket."

Not true. Christians that don't express their faith through works do that..silly huh?

col 1:21-23 That's right..who does it? GOD not us hence we cannot undo it either. Once you were aleinated...now you're not. There isn't any going back, that is made ,clear in that passage.

"Hebrews 3:12-14 " Umm..here again we see its God doing things not us. Look at verse 10...God is the author of our salvation, not us. We have no real say in it, Only after we are called can we respond.

"Luke 8:16-18 " This is NOT about salvation at all. No where is he saying that your salvation can be taken away. It is about doing the job God has for you. True faith expressing itself in works. God is saying don't miss the good things I have for you by being selfish. He isn't talking about salvation at all in that passage.

'Matthew 25:14-30" Again here he is saying to do God's will. He is not talking about salvation at all. First of all he is talking to his disciples, so this has to be taken in context of the audience. He is talking about not missing out on the good works God has for you. It has nothing to do with loosing your salvation. I see that no where in that passage nor in any of the surrounding ones.