OSAS Part II

[LouisBooth]

"If "by grace you are saved" means "by faith you are saved", the author was very careless in his choice of wording, LouisBooth"

:lol: okay, now since your ideas are shown to be false lets to critize the bible translators who are more qualitied then I would say you are to translate the bible? come on now thunder....

 

[Thunderchild]

*Sigh*
Is it not clear to you from your own reading that "by grace you are saved through faith" means "by grace you are saved," not "by faith you are saved" LouisBooth?
A 10 year old who could not see the distinction would wind up in remedial English.

 

[LouisBooth]

"Is it not clear to you from your own reading that "by grace you are saved through faith" means "by grace you are saved," not "by faith you are saved" LouisBooth? "

:lol: umm..I think you fail to see the significance of that here. Through a wonderous kindness I was saved, BY A LIFE PRESEVER. Now yes, the event saved me..what was the means of the saving..the preservior, ie the FAITH. It saved me. Glad I could help you understand

 

[Thunderchild]

You have stated that it is God who saves, because he is merciful, LouisBooth - strange comment to be coming from one who believes that nothing other than faith is needed for salvation.

 

[Ben johnson]

You have stated that it is God who saves, because he is merciful, LouisBooth - strange comment to be coming from one who believes that nothing other than faith is needed for salvation.

I don't think that's what he's sayin'. The only thing that saves us, is God's grace. His gift of love, accomplished by Jesus' sacrifice upon the Cross. A sacrifice complete, sufficient, total, for all time.

Yet, "by one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men" (Rom5:1 . God's grace is offered to all men. Are all men saved? No. Why not? Rom5:17: "those who received the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ".

"For by grace through faith are you saved". "For by one act of righteousness, the one perfect sacrifice, offering salvation to all men, by grace, AND for all who receive that offering of grace and gift of righteousness THROUGH FAITH, will REIGN ETERNALLY with Jesus".

Sounds pretty clear to me...

 

[LouisBooth]

Yup...the abrivation is OSAS

 

[Thunderchild]

What we do cannot save us - we cannot earn our way into the Father's house - we have sinned and in so doing, have forfeited the right to God's company. Jesus came, and offered propitiation for our sins - we were saved by him - we were restored to God so that we could enter into God's house. Let no-one think that we will be permitted to stay there if we go on to beat our siblings or wreck the furniture.

 

[LouisBooth]

"Let no-one think that we will be permitted to stay there if we go on to beat our siblings or wreck the furniture. "

But that won't happen if you're truely a christian. so yes it is OSAS.

 

[zamar]

Question.... Can one loose what one does not completly understand and walk in? Or can one choose to walk away from the gift with full understanding of what one is leaving behind?

Z

 

[InspectorVol]

I won't copy and paste because of the length of it but here is a good link on this subject if you care to read it. Be forewarned it does not condone OSAS but I wish you would read it anyway.

www.gospelway.com/salvation/eternal%20security.htm[

 

[Optimus_P]

"Question.... Can one loose what one does not completly understand and walk in? Or can one choose to walk away from the gift with full understanding of what one is leaving behind?

Z "


on the other side of that; can one choose to follow Christ not knowing beforhand what is to come? The answer is no; we do not choose to follow Christ but the Father chooses us to follow his son. Altho we can not comprehend what we are following, and can spend a lifetime trying to know Christ and the Father but by grace and faith we are saved. Can you walk away from yourself after you are born?

 

[Ben johnson]

Nice post, Optimus---but can you support what you just said, with Scripture?

 

[Thunderchild]

According to OSAS those people would never have been granted entry to the household in the first place. According to Jesus, repeatedly, with parables and with direct statements, those people will be stripped of the positions within the household and bounced out on their collective ears.

 

[Thunderchild]

OptimusP> Another question could be asked - can a person walk away from everything he believes in?

 

[Optimus_P]

PT: I would say no (from a faith standpoint) for the fact that God chooses whom will follow Christ. And being he has already "mapped" out our lives he would push us away if we were not wothy of eternal life. besides if you truly believe then how could you turn your back on something your mind and heart say is true.

Ben Johnson:

I will try to locate a much more concreate passage (i think it is in John ill have to reread it) but at this time this is the one i found. I post one line above and one line below so it can not come out of context. Take the last few words from line 28 and the whole line 29 as my actual quote.

(NIV)
(Philippians)
"27
Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending as one man for the faith of the gospel
28
without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved--and that by God.
29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,
30
since you are going through the same struggle you saw I had, and now hear that I still have."

(Thessalonians)
"12
and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
13
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
14
He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

 

[LouisBooth]

If we earn salvation then it can be lost. If we don't earn it then it can't be lost.

 

[Thunderchild]

If God....... gives me salvation, rather than that I earn it, the salvation can't be lost.

Let's leave the grammar intact and substitute other words for salvation and God. (In doing so, the analagy will preserve the intent of the statement - that is, the analogy can not be false.)

If someone gives me a car, rather than that I earn it, the car can't be lost.
Piffle.

If I leave the doors open and the keys in the ignition while I go off to do my shopping, most likely it won't be there when I get bback.

If I don't put fuel in the petrol tank - it won't take me anywhere.

If I don't maintain it, it will fall apart.

 

[Thunderchild]

OptimusP> The Old Testament is tutor to the new -

At Horeb, when the golden calf was cast, did the tribes of Israel walk away from what they believed in? The answer might be "no," to be sure.

What of David though, when he took Uriah's wife in adultery - and had Uriah well...murdered might be too strong a term technically. OK - David came back to God - but not without a rather hefty punishment being first inflicted. Did David walk away from what he believed in? The answer can only be "yes."

There comes a time in a person's walk with Christ, when that same will be put through the baptism of fire - that person will never again be able to say "you can't walk away from everything you believe in."

Take a quick look at Peter's actions when Jesus was under arrest, and again when the circumcision party representatives were within purview.

It is very easy to walk away from everything you believe in - all it takes is a momentary submission to fear, or to avarice, or the admiration and acceptance of other people, or even just the desire for a quiet life.

 

[Thunderchild]

Hardly an oxymoron. No, not an oxymoron at all.

God extends his grace to forgive us of our sins. We receive a full pardon for what we have done, and even for what we will do that should not be done.

However, nothing we could do would undo our past sins, nor those yet to be committed. The law demands the death penalty for sin... except that the law had been fulfilled, the death penalty would perforce be exacted.

A person who is pardoned for a capital crime, and all sin is a capital crime, is hardly free to continue committing capital crimes.

An earlier question was asked - about a person who has been freed from prison, will he go on to behave as he did in prison? The answer is of course, yes. The behaviour is called recidivism.

As to "We are saved by grace" in Ephesians 2:8 - which does not say "we are saved by faith" - Ephesians 2:5 says the same thing without the (so very confusing to some) adjectival clause "through faith"

 

[Optimus_P]

"OptimusP> The Old Testament is tutor to the new -

At Horeb, when the golden calf was cast, did the tribes of Israel walk away from what they believed in? The answer might be "no," to be sure."

Did they walk away? or were they lured into a great sin and set stright when moses returned, had they had faith in God teh whole time or only when they wanted something? I personaly think they only had faith when they needed God, they did not want him but they wanted what he had promised them. They were not ready to live a life of serveitude again. did God not tell Moses to return to his people as they have started praying to a false God, an idol in the shape of a baby cow. Did they not turn on god but in the end (as i am only upto Det. so forgive my lack of knowledge) God has smited all the unbeleavers from the sons of Isriel, so only the belivers the ones that truly serve God can reap what he has prommised them.