OSAS....= is Grace

[JLB777]

On the doing good portion above...what does Paul say in the next chapter? I ask because in chapter 1 Paul makes an indictment of Gentiles and then in chapter 2 shows even the Jews are lost.

Back to doing good and seeking goodness or even seeking God:

Romans 3: NASB

9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

10as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVEBECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

13“THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;

14“WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING ANDBITTERNESS”;

15“THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,

16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,

17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”

18“THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”

These verses refer to those who are without Christ, in which Paul is showing both Jews and Gentiles are the same, and are both under sin.





JLB

 

[JLB777]

Therefore we know that He abides in us by the Spirit Whom He has given us.

If we keep His commandments, His Spirit abides in us.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


The way His Spirit abides in us, is because we are “in Christ”, and are joined to Him, being one spirit with Him.


But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17


The way we continue to be joined to Him in which we remain in Him, is by keeping His commandments.



Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him...


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4




JLB

 

[Danthemailman]

Believer means obeyer.

A believer is one who has faith in/trusts in/reliance in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (John 3:16; Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6 etc..). Obedience which follows is works, which is the fruit of believing, but not the essence of believing. Those who teach salvation by works cannot grasp the difference.

Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

You continue to confuse "descriptive" passages of scripture with "prescriptive" passages of scripture and the end result is salvation by works. 1 John 3:23 - And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24a Now he who keeps His commandments (descriptive of believers) abides in Him, and He in him.

Just as we read in 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him, already saved, demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. *This does not mean that we maintain salvation based on the merits of obeying all of His commandments 100% of the time, as sinless perfectionists (who are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness - 1 John 1:8-10) teach.

1 John 3:24b - And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

 

[Danthemailman]

That’s what puzzles me. No one would have any assurance if they keep guessing if they crossed some undefined threshold.

Frankly that’s what the adversary wants us to think.

Yes, the adversary wants us to trust in self/in works and NOT in Christ alone for salvation because he knows that Jesus is the only way (John 3:15,16,18; 10:9; 14:6; Acts 4:12). Either we are trusting 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost.

That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT. It's a shame that HUMAN PRIDE will not allow works-salvationists to trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith.

 

[JLB777]

A believer is one who has faith in/trusts in/reliance in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (John 3:16; Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6 etc..). Obedience which follows is works, which is the fruit of believing, but not the essence of believing. Those who teach salvation by works cannot grasp the difference.

If you see where I said that we are saved by works then please copy and paste it for all to see.


If you can’t find where I said “we are saved by works” then please repent for lying.



But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8


Do you believe born again Christians who lie, and never repent of lying will inherit the kingdom of God?



JLB

 

[Danthemailman]

If you see where I said that we are saved by works then please copy and paste it for all to see.

You did not come straight out and use the exact words, "we are saved by works," but it was implied.
You said:

Believer means obeyer...Yes, believe means obey.
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36
Believers who disobey Christ will be Judged at the Judgement seat of Christ along with all the Church.
God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

As I already explained, a believer is one who has faith in/trusts in/reliance in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (John 3:16; Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6 etc..). Obedience which follows is works, which is the fruit of believing, but not the essence of believing. You continuously define "believe" as "obey" and the end result is blending faith and works as one in the same thing. You say "believers who disobey Christ," yet which believers perfectly obey Christ 100% of the time? You continuously point to obedience/works/deeds as being the "basis or means" by which one receives eternal life.

You also said:

Born again Christians who claim to have eternal life, yet do not keep His commandments are liars, and the truth is not in them.

You are continuously condemning born again Christians based on their lack of performance, as if there are two separate camps of believers - saved/believers who obey/keep His commandments; lost/believers who do not obey/do not keep His commandments, yet 1 John 2:3-4 separates genuine believers from make believers.

You also said:

Here is how we are instructed to "remain in Christ." - Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. In other words, keeping His commandments keeps us in Christ, keeps us saved. That is type 2 works salvation.

If you can’t find where I said “we are saved by works” then please repent for lying.

Works-salvationists rarely come straight out and specifically say, "we are saved by works," yet they still imply it in their statements and don't always even realize they are teaching works salvation. Here are some statements below from others that I've had conversations with who deny they teach salvation by works, then afterwards, contradict themselves:

"We are not saved by works, but by faith and works."

"It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit."

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

I have also heard numerous works-salvationists teach that we are saved by "these" works (good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law) in order to get around certain passages of scripture (Romans 3:28; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..), but it's all just smoke and mirrors.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

So now you are calling me a liar and condemning me using Revelation 21:8? You are so quick to condemn believers! I'm not lying. Now who is not guilty of ever committing at least one of those sins mentioned above? Apart from faith in Christ and the blood of Christ, we would all be facing the second death.

Do you believe born again Christians who lie, and never repent of lying will inherit the kingdom of God?

Here you go again. Back to performance based salvation. BTW Christians who lie and never repent of lying is an oxymoron.

 

[JLB777]

You did not come straight out and use the exact words, "we are saved by works," but it was implied.
You said:

Believer means obeyer...Yes, believe means obey.
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36
Believers who disobey Christ will be Judged at the Judgement seat of Christ along with all the Church.
God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

As I already explained, a believer is one who has faith in/trusts in/reliance in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (John 3:16; Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6 etc..). Obedience which follows is works, which is the fruit of believing, but not the essence of believing. You continuously define "believe" as "obey" and the end result is blending faith and works as one in the same thing. You say "believers who disobey Christ," yet which believers perfectly obey Christ 100% of the time? You continuously point to obedience/works/deeds as being the "basis or means" by which one receives eternal life.

You also said:

Born again Christians who claim to have eternal life, yet do not keep His commandments are liars, and the truth is not in them.

You are continuously condemning born again Christians based on their lack of performance, as if there are two separate camps of believers - saved/believers who obey/keep His commandments; lost/believers who do not obey/do not keep His commandments, yet 1 John 2:3-4 separates genuine believers from make believers.

You also said:

Here is how we are instructed to "remain in Christ." - Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. In other words, keeping His commandments keeps us in Christ, keeps us saved. That is type 2 works salvation.

Works-salvationists rarely come straight out and specifically say, "we are saved by works," yet they still imply it in their statements and don't always even realize they are teaching works salvation. Here are some statements below from others that I've had conversations with who deny they teach salvation by works, then afterwards, contradict themselves:

"We are not saved by works, but by faith and works."

"It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit."

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

I have also heard numerous works-salvationists teach that we are saved by "these" works (good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law) in order to get around certain passages of scripture (Romans 3:28; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..), but it's all just smoke and mirrors.

So now you are calling me a liar and condemning me using Revelation 21:8? You are so quick to condemn believers! I'm not lying. Now who is not guilty of ever committing at least one of those sins mentioned above? Apart from faith in Christ and the blood of Christ, we would all be facing the second death.

Here you go again. Back to performance based salvation. BTW Christians who lie and never repent of lying is an oxymoron.

Like most folks who have been taught incorrectly, you misunderstand the difference between the “works” of the law, and the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26



Now please answer my question.



Do you believe born again Christians who lie, and never repent of lying will inherit the kingdom of God?



Do you understand what “inherit the kingdom of God” means?




JLB

 

[redleghunter]

These verses refer to those who are without Christ, in which Paul is showing both Jews and Gentiles are the same, and are both under sin.





JLB

The chapter actually says none and all.

 

[redleghunter]

When were His 11 disciples being persecuted, and when did they turn back to Judaism?




JLB

They avoided persecution by abandoning Christ. Peter denied our Lord three times to avoid being associated with Him. Yet Christ restored them all.

 

[redleghunter]

If we keep His commandments, His Spirit abides in us.

Didn’t see the “if” other than knowing we have the Spirit.

It evokes this as well:

Romans 8: NASB

9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

 

[redleghunter]

The way we continue to be joined to Him in which we remain in Him, is by keeping His commandments.

That’s a valid observation. But we must ask by whose or Whose Power this is possible. In Ezekiel 36 the New Covenant is explained:

Ezekiel 36: NASB

26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28“You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

 

[redleghunter]

A believer is one who has faith in/trusts in/reliance in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (John 3:16; Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6 etc..). Obedience which follows is works, which is the fruit of believing, but not the essence of believing. Those who teach salvation by works cannot grasp the difference.

Yes Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him for righteousness. It was after this that Abraham demonstrates his faith by waking in obedience. It’s why the seal of circumcision came later.

 

[redleghunter]

Do you believe born again Christians who lie, and never repent of lying will inherit the kingdom of God?

I think the real question to your scenario of “what if” would be “why wouldn’t a born again Christian repent?”

What NT example do we have to draw from? I can only think of Judas.

 

[JLB777]

The chapter actually says none and all.

I think the real question to your scenario of “what if” would be “why wouldn’t a born again Christian repent?”

What NT example do we have to draw from? I can only think of Judas.

Yes Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him for righteousness. It was after this that Abraham demonstrates his faith by waking in obedience. It’s why the seal of circumcision came later.

That’s a valid observation. But we must ask by whose or Whose Power this is possible. In Ezekiel 36 the New Covenant is explained:

Ezekiel 36: NASB

26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28“You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

Do you believe born again Christians who lie, and never repent of lying will inherit the kingdom of God?



Do you understand what “inherit the kingdom of God” means?




JLB

 

[redleghunter]

Do you believe born again Christians who lie, and never repent of lying will inherit the kingdom of God?



Do you understand what “inherit the kingdom of God” means?




JLB

I believe I asked the question of “why wouldn’t a born again Christian repent?”

And then asked for a NT example of an unrepentant born again Christian suffering from a spirit of obstinacy.

Is Judas an example?

 

[JLB777]

I believe I asked the question of “why wouldn’t a born again Christian repent?”

And then asked for a NT example of an unrepentant born again Christian suffering from a spirit of obstinacy.

Is Judas an example?

Don’t need your question, I asked the question.


What is your answer?


Do you believe born again Christians who lie, and never repent of lying will inherit the kingdom of God?



Do you understand what “inherit the kingdom of God” means?




JLB

 

[redleghunter]

Don’t need your question, I asked the question.


What is your answer?


Do you believe born again Christians who lie, and never repent of lying will inherit the kingdom of God?



Do you understand what “inherit the kingdom of God” means?




JLB

I believe there is no evidence to support your interrogatory.

 

[JLB777]

I believe there is no evidence to support your interrogatory.

• all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:

So you believe Christians can be liars and be welcome in God’s kingdom on the Day of Judgement?



But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8



JLB

 

[redleghunter]

• all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:

So you believe Christians can be liars and be welcome in God’s kingdom on the Day of Judgement?



But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8



JLB

So you believe there are Christians who don’t repent?

 

[JLB777]

So you believe there are Christians who don’t repent?

Either answer my question with a simple yes or no, or don’t bother asking me anymore questions

• all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:

So you believe Christians can be liars and be welcome in God’s kingdom on the Day of Judgement?



But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8



JLB