OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

EmSw · Jun 17, 2018

justbyfaith said:
Actually, if we find how we are saved, we will know how they were saved.

Okay, what better way to find out than what Jesus taught?

Matthew 19:17
...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Major1 · Jun 17, 2018

justbyfaith said:
I didn't say he was no longer his father's son (as a matter of fact he never could cease to be that); I said that if he had died in the pigpen, his fate would have been to have been estranged from his father for all of eternity.

I see. It just sounded like you were equating "Being estranged from the Father" as being lost and spend eternity in hell.

amariselle · Jun 17, 2018

EmSw said:
Is Genesis the only book you believe in the OT? What about the whole book of Ezekiel?

I believe the entire OT and it ALL points to Christ.

EmSw said:
Then you will tell us all you believe this truth of Jesus and you live by it.

Matthew 19:17
...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Are you a Jew under OT Law? Are you living before the cross?

EmSw said:
Go ahead, make your profession you believe this truth of the Savior and live by it.

I’ll tell you what I believe, I believe the Gospel. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

This was always the promise of God and this is only hope of salvation. Period.

Many will try to be justified by the Law and work their way to Heaven, but they will not enter in.

amariselle · Jun 17, 2018

EmSw said:
Then why not change your mind, turn away from your sin, turn to God, and obey His truth? It's a problem you can fix if that is your desire. He will help you in your heart's desire to live right. You have no excuse.

What did Jesus say is “the will of the Father”?

EmSw · Jun 17, 2018

amariselle said:
I personally am very thankful for the inspired writings of Paul. They clarify so many things from the OT.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

But did his inspired teachings bring to your remembrance whatsoever Jesus said to you?

So many Christians reject the words of Jesus, including this truth -

Matthew 19:17
...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Major1 · Jun 17, 2018

EmSw said:
Okay, what better way to find out than what Jesus taught?

Matthew 19:17
...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

God bless you my friend. You just can not seem to help yourself. You keep on posting Scriptures without seemingly being able to correctly exegesis them from proper understanding.

Does obeying the gospel mean obeying Christ’s every command? In fact it is speaking of obedience to the command to believe in Jesus. It is not the obedience resulting from salvation but the obedience which is equivalent to believing. The term “if thou wilt enter into life” is used synonymously with believers, as the scriptures clearly indicate. Likewise “those who obey not the gospel” are the unsaved, not a defiant faction of the church or an individual.

EmSw · Jun 17, 2018

Blood Bought 1953 said:
The “true believer” will do what Jesus to him to do.Follow Paul.Pauls Gospel In 1cor15:1 will save you if you simply believe it.Add to it If you want to be “accursed””.Many people who are obsessed with the sin issue, which was settled 2000 years ago, should be paying more attention to their faith rather than their progress at keeping the Law.God does not care about progress—He demands perfection. Believe the Gospel and God will impute the Perfection of His Son to you.He will also put His Spirit in you and you will “ find yourself” being “ transformed” into the image of Gods Son. HE, repeat HE will finish the job that HE started.If you “ let go and let God” he will do a much better job of cleaning you up than you can .God is not impressed by how much you can try to subdue that old sin man that dwells within you.Sooner or later, despite your willpower, your doubts, your fears and self- control that old man is going to fear his ugly head.The “ inside of the cup “ is what matters.Not the outside of the cup.You May fool others and you most certainly will fool yourself—but you ain’t fooling God.

This is why you take up your cross daily. This is why James said to purify your heart.

Did not Jesus say to take up your cross daily, deny yourself, and follow Him? Will a true believer do this?

Major1 · Jun 17, 2018

EmSw said:
Since you don't reject Jesus' words, then tell us all you believe these words and live by them.

Matthew 19:17
...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Also, Jesus said this -

Matthew 28
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Are you teaching ALL nations 'to observe ALL THINGS whatsoever I have commanded you'. Are you? Are you teaching everyone to observe His command to keep His commandments?

Matthew 28 was the directions from Jesus TO THE APOSTLES referred to as the "Great Commission".

“As you are going,” “baptizing,” and “teaching” are the means by which we fulfill the command to “make disciples.”

Again, you are cherry picking verses so as to make your opinion acceptable.

amariselle · Jun 17, 2018

EmSw said:
John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

But did his inspired teachings bring to your remembrance whatsoever Jesus said to you?

So many Christians reject the words of Jesus, including this truth -

Matthew 19:17
...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

The same Holy Spirit that inspired Paul to write what he did, is the “Comforter” Jesus promised. Paul was taught personally by Jesus and did confirm His words.

To accept Paul’s Holy Spirit inspired writings is not to reject the words of Jesus.

Major1 · Jun 17, 2018

EmSw said:
So, by their works and way of life. Tell us how a man is saved if his fruit is bad.

He would then NOT BE SAVED! SIMPLE!

EmSw · Jun 17, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
Where does it state that Jesus died in our place?
I can't remember.

True, Jesus never said He would die in the place of anyone.

EmSw · Jun 17, 2018

amariselle said:
In fact it is, as when God said “thy seed”, He was referring to Jesus Christ.

That is not the Gospel Jesus preached.

EmSw · Jun 17, 2018

amariselle said:
I believe the entire OT and it ALL points to Christ.

It not only points to Jesus, but every word is Jesus Himself.

amariselle said:
Are you a Jew under OT Law? Are you living before the cross?

I am a Gentile under the teachings of Jesus. Did Jesus teach truths before the cross?

amariselle said:
I’ll tell you what I believe, I believe the Gospel. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

This was always the promise of God and the is only hope of salvation. Period.

Many will try to be justified by the Law and work their way to Heaven, but they will not enter in.

Actually Jesus said if you want to enter life, keep the commandments. You are teaching something contrary to Jesus.

Many will not enter because they do not strive to enter. They do not listen to Jesus and do what He says.

Luke 13:24
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Matthew 7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

You can listen to the majority of people who say keeping the commandments is NOT the way to enter life, and know that the narrow way is not what many believe, for they happily will enter the wide gate. It's a few who enter the narrow gate that leads to life, for only a few find it.

EmSw · Jun 17, 2018

amariselle said:
What did Jesus say is “the will of the Father”?

Everything He said and did is the will of the Father, not only a select few verses.

John 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Notice it is those who see the Son and believe on Him which have everlasting life.

So I ask, how does one see the Son except He manifest Himself? If Jesus doesn't manifest Himself to someone, will that person see Him? This is very important in knowing Jesus. He must manifest Himself to a person.

Do you believe this? Do you believe it is a person who sees and believes Jesus that have everlasting life?

If so, then Jesus makes a very astounding statement about manifesting Himself to man.

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jesus manifests Himself to those who have His commandments and keeps (obeys) them. This came from Jesus Himself. Keep His commandments, you love Jesus and He loves you, AND WILL MAINIFEST HIMSELF to you. This is a truth Jesus gave us.

Therefore, a man does not have everlasting life unless he sees and believes Him. A man cannot see Jesus unless He manifests Himself to the man, and He only manifests Himself to the man who has and keeps His commandments.

Now you know the will of the Father.

EmSw · Jun 17, 2018

Major1 said:
He would then NOT BE SAVED! SIMPLE!

Then how is a believer saved when bad fruit is in his life?

EmSw · Jun 17, 2018

Major1 said:
God bless you my friend. You just can not seem to help yourself. You keep on posting Scriptures without seemingly being able to correctly exegesis them from proper understanding.

Does obeying the gospel mean obeying Christ’s every command? In fact it is speaking of obedience to the command to believe in Jesus. It is not the obedience resulting from salvation but the obedience which is equivalent to believing. The term “if thou wilt enter into life” is used synonymously with believers, as the scriptures clearly indicate. Likewise “those who obey not the gospel” are the unsaved, not a defiant faction of the church or an individual.

I'm sorry, I didn't know Jesus said to exegete correctly to have proper understanding. This is man's way of understanding things. Jesus said the Holy Spirit would teach us all things, not some exegesis on man's part.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

EmSw · Jun 17, 2018

amariselle said:
The same Holy Spirit that inspired Paul to write what he did, is the “Comforter” Jesus promised. Paul was taught personally by Jesus and did confirm His words.

To accept Paul’s Holy Spirit inspired writings is not to reject the words of Jesus.

Why is it that you or I cannot be inspired and taught by the Holy Spirit? Why can't we be personally taught by Jesus?

aiki · Jun 17, 2018

justbyfaith said:
If the prodigal son had died while out in the pigpen, where would he be? Back in the arms of his father? I don't think so. He would have remained dead and lost for all of eternity.

Well, you see, you're assuming the parable is about salvation. I don't. I think it is about the Father and his incredible graciousness, patience, mercy and love. The parable demonstrates that the amazing character of the Father could not be diminished by the wretched behaviour of his son.

If the son had died in the pigpen - and now we're going beyond the boundaries of the parable (as you tried to do with my pneumonia medication analogy) - he would still have been his father's son. His relationship to his father could not be dissolved even by death. Okay. So, what happens to those who die as children of God? They go to be with God. It still doesn't look to me, then, like the parable teaches a saved-and-lost doctrine as you seem to want it to.

amariselle · Jun 17, 2018

EmSw said:
Everything He said and did is the will of the Father, not only a select few verses.

I didn’t say otherwise. I was referring to salvation.

EmSw said:
John 6:38

EmSw said:
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Notice it is those who see the Son and believe on Him which have everlasting life.

Yep.

EmSw said:
So I ask, how does one see the Son except He manifest Himself? If Jesus doesn't manifest Himself to someone, will that person see Him? This is very important in knowing Jesus. He must manifest Himself to a person.

And how was He “manifested” for us and for our salvation? (It wasn’t through the Law of Moses)

EmSw said:
Do you believe this? Do you believe it is a person who sees and believes Jesus that have everlasting life?

Yes.

EmSw said:
If so, then Jesus makes a very astounding statement about manifesting Himself to man.

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jesus manifests Himself to those who have His commandments and keeps (obeys) them. This came from Jesus Himself. Keep His commandments, you love Jesus and He loves you, AND WILL MAINIFEST HIMSELF to you. This is a truth Jesus gave us.

Therefore, a man does not have everlasting life unless he sees and believes Him. A man cannot see Jesus unless He manifests Himself to the man, and He only manifests Himself to the man who has and keeps His commandments.

Jesus does not “manifest” Himself through the Law, which was a “schoolmaster” to point us to Christ and “stop our mouths” in guilt before God.

Jesus is the Mediator of a much better Covenant and is not a High Priest after the Levitical order, but after “the order of Melchizedek.” He “manifests” Himself in the Gospel. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. - John 3:14-15

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. - 1 John 3:5

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? - Galatians 3:1

EmSw said:
Now you know the will of the Father.

Rest assured, you haven’t educated me on the will of the Father. I know it full well.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

amariselle · Jun 17, 2018

EmSw said:
Why is it that you or I cannot be inspired and taught by the Holy Spirit? Why can't we be personally taught by Jesus?

In what way? All true believers have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and He does guide us. Not all true believers are foundational apostles, however. Now we “earnestly contend for the faith once delivered to the saints.”

OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

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