OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

[EmSw]

Same thing I said about Hebrews 3:17-19. So, I would ask, what was the point of needing to find that doctrine in the OT when it is explained so much more clearly (and in fewer verses) in the NT?

edit after posting #598: because I'm going to hold you to the fact that you said you don't have anything against the NT.

The reason we need the OT is because many have said OT saints and NT saints were saved the same way. So if we find how they were saved, then we know how we are saved.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus was never, nor will He ever be judged. The judge does not judge Himself. He did not take your judgment.

I beg to differ. Jesus did die in our place; and that is the gospel of Jesus Christ. And also what the word propitiation means (Romans 3:25, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10).

Clearly Jesus has just condemned salvation by WORKS. They were NEVER believers to begin with as they had placed their salvation on WORKS as there is no mention here of FAITH IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.

NO Born Again believer will ever hear the words from Jesus....."I never knew you".
Every believer instead will hear Jesus say....."Come unto me ye who are weary and I will give you rest".

Therefore no born again believer is the kind to do or work iniquity. Because trusting in works is nowhere in the immediate context of Matthew 13:41-42, and yet it says the same thing as Matthew 7:23 apart from that context.

 

[amariselle]

Why do you not believe this truth?

Proverbs 7:2
Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye

Indeed, there is nothing wrong with the Law, the problem is with us.

Romans 7:
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[justbyfaith]

So, how do you tell true believers?

By the fruit that they bear (Matthew 7:16-20, Galatians 5:22-23).

 

[amariselle]

And what if I pray for you two because you do not believe the OT?

I specifically shared from Genesis. Is Genesis not in the OT?

Oh, and because you reject the words of Jesus.

I don’t, actually. Thanks for your concern though.

 

[amariselle]

The reason we need the OT is because many have said OT saints and NT saints were saved the same way. So if we find how they were saved, then we know how we are saved.

Genesis 15. The Gospel was given to Abraham 430 years before the Law was given to Moses.

The Gospel has always been the only hope of salvation in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour.

 

[justbyfaith]

And what if I pray for you two because you do not believe the OT?

Oh, and because you reject the words of Jesus.

Go right ahead; God is not going to answer a prayer that is not according to His will. And we don't reject the words of Jesus, we see them in their proper light, based on the epistles. Because scripture interprets scripture (1 Corinthians 2:13-14)

And we also see the Old Testament in its proper light, according to what the New Testament says about it; specifically in 2 Corinthians 3:13-14 and Hebrews 8:13.

 

[justbyfaith]

The reason we need the OT is because many have said OT saints and NT saints were saved the same way. So if we find how they were saved, then we know how we are saved.

Actually, if we find how we are saved, we will know how they were saved.

 

[amariselle]

It's going to fall on deaf ears, @amariselle. He doesn't really hold the New Testament epistles as being inspired as far as I can tell. All we can do is pray for him that the Holy Ghost will convict him for rejecting portions of His word.

I personally am very thankful for the inspired writings of Paul. They clarify so many things from the OT.

 

[justbyfaith]

But as the parable of the Prodigal makes clear, the Prodigal's sonship was very beneficial to him. He gained an inheritance, and when he had used it all up, he was able to return to the loving, fully-accepting arms of his father.

If the prodigal son had died while out in the pigpen, where would he be? Back in the arms of his father? I don't think so. He would have remained dead and lost for all of eternity.

 

[justbyfaith]

I personally am very thankful for the inspired writings of Paul. They clarify so many things from the OT.

So am I, dear sister.

 

[justbyfaith]

There is nothing there to suggest that we can lose something that we did nothing to obtain.

But we did do something to obtain it: we put our hope, faith, and trust in Jesus Christ. It follows that if we abandon hope, faith, and trust in Him we can lose what we gained when we put our hope, faith, and trust in Him.

But we do not have to obey to be or stay saved. We do not lose our salvation when we sin or disobey God.

If anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous One. But if we continue in a lifestyle of sin and do not repent, we are not born again of the Holy Spirit. Slip-ups will be accounted for by the blood of the Cross: a life of rebellion will get you in hell: it means you are not born again.

Scriiptures: 1 John 2:1, 1 John 3:9, 1 John 5:18, 1 John 1:9, Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 7:23, 2 Corinthians 5:17.

 

[aiki]

Fair enough to say that your analogy is not perfect because it does not perfectly portray what you are trying to say but actually portrays the opposite.

Only if you extend the analogy beyond the point I was trying to make from it. And it isn't that my analogy wasn't perfect but that no analogy is.

Jesus is saying that unsaved sinners are the salt of the earth? That is an interesting point of view (but it defies common sense).

Well, you criticize here, but offer no concrete reason why I should, given what I explained, think Jesus was speaking to believers when he spoke of the "salt of the earth." As I said, he had not yet died, so when he said, "You are the salt of the earth," he could not have been addressing Christian believers. Thinking that he was is what defies common sense.

Does living in contradiction to Ephesians 2:8-9 mean living in iniquity?

Did I say that it did?

We are saved by grace through faith can be interpreted also by Titus 3:4-7, where it says that we are saved through the renewing and regeneration of the Holy Ghost.

I have already made this point in this thread. I often cite Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 together.

we don't any longer obey the dictates of the flesh and of the mind, seeing we are not children of wrath by nature any more.

We ought not to obey the impulses/lusts of the flesh and the carnal mind but being saved does not guarantee that we will not. See Galatians 5:17, Romans 7:17-21, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 and 1 John 1:7-10.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

The “true believer” will do what Jesus to him to do.Follow Paul.Pauls Gospel In 1cor15:1 will save you if you simply believe it.Add to it If you want to be “accursed””.Many people who are obsessed with the sin issue, which was settled 2000 years ago, should be paying more attention to their faith rather than their progress at keeping the Law.God does not care about progress—He demands perfection. Believe the Gospel and God will impute the Perfection of His Son to you.He will also put His Spirit in you and you will “ find yourself” being “ transformed” into the image of Gods Son. HE, repeat HE will finish the job that HE started.If you “ let go and let God” he will do a much better job of cleaning you up than you can .God is not impressed by how much you can try to subdue that old sin man that dwells within you.Sooner or later, despite your willpower, your doubts, your fears and self- control that old man is going to fear his ugly head.The “ inside of the cup “ is what matters.Not the outside of the cup.You May fool others and you most certainly will fool yourself—but you ain’t fooling God.

 

[GodsGrace101]

To me repenting isn't just saying I'm sorry or Father forgive me for my sins. It means that we have to change our ways and this means taking action, i.e. doing works. Let's say I have a quick temper and it has gotten me in trouble with my loved ones. I have to vow and work to change losing my temper. It may be catching oneself and counting to ten or saying three Our Fathers before speaking or it may involve going to see a psychiatrist or other professional counselor. All of this involves works and trying to redeem our sins. Just believing in Jesus does not redeem our sins, but it helps to change our evil ways. Prayer helps to change our ways. The Holy Spirit helps to change our ways. This is what Jesus taught me.

I understand.
I'd have to agree.

And, yes, repent does not mean to be sorry for...
It means to actually change the direction in which we are headed...to turn around and go the other way.

We're headed toward the evil one......
we repent, (turn around, change our direction) and go toward God.

Many times repent is used to mean "be sorry for", but actually you're right.

And, yes, if we change our direction and go towards God, it means we will also be doing His works...

Thanks.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

To me repenting isn't just saying I'm sorry or Father forgive me for my sins. It means that we have to change our ways and this means taking action, i.e. doing works. Let's say I have a quick temper and it has gotten me in trouble with my loved ones. I have to vow and work to change losing my temper. It may be catching oneself and counting to ten or saying three Our Fathers before speaking or it may involve going to see a psychiatrist or other professional counselor. All of this involves works and trying to redeem our sins. Just believing in Jesus does not redeem our sins, but it helps to change our evil ways. Prayer helps to change our ways. The Holy Spirit helps to change our ways. This is what Jesus taught me.

So in others words, we are our own redeemers.If that is true Jesus died in vain.Where on Earth did you get this stuff?Please go somewhere to get some good,Biblical teaching instead of a hodge- podge Of falsehoods and half Truths that was pulled out of a hat.Check out “ getgodsgift” for a good start.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I beg to differ. Jesus did die in our place; and that is the gospel of Jesus Christ. And also what the word propitiation means (Romans 3:25, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10).

Therefore no born again believer is the kind to do or work iniquity. Because trusting in works is nowhere in the immediate context of Matthew 13:41-42, and yet it says the same thing as Matthew 7:23 apart from that context.

Where does it state that Jesus died in our place?
I can't remember.

 

[GodsGrace101]

So in others words, we are our own redeemers.If that is true Jesus died in vain.Where on Earth did you get this stuff?Please go somewhere to get some good,Biblical teaching instead of a hodge- podge Of falsehoods and half Truths that was pulled out of a hat.Check out “ getgodsgift” for a good start.

Actually, @jamesbond007 is 100% correct.

Maybe we should all stop checking out the net and go to a good church -- that would be the place to get some "good, biblical teaching"...in your very own words.

Or, even properly reading the bible would be of some help...
Jesus will be judging us by our good works.
John 5:28-29

 

[GodsGrace101]

But we did do something to obtain it: we put our hope, faith, and trust in Jesus Christ. It follows that if we abandon hope, faith, and trust in Him we can lose what we gained when we put our hope, faith, and trust in Him.

You're responding to something I can't remember ever saying!
Could you give me the post number??

 

[Major1]

You know, I didn't even know there were persons that said we have to do nothing to REMAIN saved, I didn't know about Faith Only, or the Word of Faith or Grace Only or any of that.

I read the bible and it spoke to me.
I see that through Jesus a person can be saved.
But saved from what, exactly?
What do you think we're saved from?

We're saved from sin, we're saved from eternal death, we're saved from the grip of satan.

But if Jesus is to be our Savior is He not also our Lord?
Lord, master. So what does our master teach us? He spend over three years with the Apostles so they could teach us that we're to do nothing? Aside from verses, this just doesn't make sense.

Mathew 28:19-20 Jesus said:
19“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

We have to ask then, what did Jesus teach the Apostles?
What are they to pass down to the next generation?

What did Jesus tell us to DO?:

• Repent
  “From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matthew 4:17).
• Follow Me
  “And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men”(Matthew 4:19).
• Rejoice
  “Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you” (Matthew 5:11–12).
• Let Your Light Shine
  “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven”(Matthew 5:16).
• Honor God’s Law
  “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill” (Matthew 5:17).
• Be Reconciled
  “Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee; leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift”(Matthew 5:23–25).
• Do Not Lust
  “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell” (Matthew 5:28–30).
• Keep Your Word
  “Let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil” (Matthew 5:37).
• Go the Second Mile
  “Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away”(Matthew 5:38–42).

PART 1 OF 2

First, what I THINK is not important.

Then, What do I think that we are saved FROM. All I know is what the Bible says.
Romans 5:9.........…
"Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God."

1 Thessalonians 5:9 ,,,,,,,,,,,,
"For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ".

Our sin has separated us from God, and the consequence of sin is death as seen in Rom. 6:23. Biblical salvation refers to our deliverance from the consequence of sin and therefore involves the removal of sin.

As for ETERNAL LIFE. ALL humans have eternal life. WHERE you spend it is your choice and there are two,,,,,,heaven and hell.

 

[Major1]

The reason we need the OT is because many have said OT saints and NT saints were saved the same way. So if we find how they were saved, then we know how we are saved.

We know how they were saved my friend. It is YOU who do not seem to know.

Galatians 3:11
" Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Paul actually quoted Old Test. prophet Habakkuk.

Habakkuk 2:4
“Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him, but the righteous shall live by his faith. "

Romans 4:3
"For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

Romans 4:6–8
"just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: "

Clearly, Old Testament saints were aware of the promised Redeemer, and they were saved by faith in that Savior, the same way people are saved today. There is no other way. Jesus is “‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone.’ Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” ……Acts 4:11-2 quoting Psalms 118:22.