OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

Major1 · Jun 13, 2018

EmSw said:
Were you guilty of the same thing by asking a yes or no question?

No sir, you did not; I said that. Where did I mention that you said it?

Really? Did you not read what I said about repentance and forgiveness? Why are you even thinking I lost my salvation?

What do you say to the OSAS'ers who say you can continue in your sin and still be saved?

I said that because YOU have stated that you believe that we lose our salvation when we sin. According to your thinking then YOU have lost your salvation because YOU have sinned after you were saved.

Do you then get saved over and over when you sin and disobey God??????

Now, I for one do not know of anyone who believes in OSAS who thinks that they can continue in sin.

I do know several Pentecostal believers who use that as an argument against OSAS but I do not know of any truly born again and Bible educated people who think of such a thing.

Major1 · Jun 13, 2018

BobRyan said:
I have noted your preferences and have agreed that you do have your right to them. No objection on that point from me.

That is not the problem Bob.

The bottom line is as you have been told by others and myself, you continue to use the same argument and Scriptures over and over and over expecting I guess to receive a different response from me and others.

Major1 · Jun 13, 2018

BobRyan said:
It is more than a little 'funny' that you view quotes of the Bible itself as a quote of some 'SDA commentary".

More focus on "Bible details" please.

2 Timothy 2:15 ..........
" Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

That is where those Bible texts that you are asking not to see again - are coming in.

Romans 11:1
" I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. "

Is followed by

Rom 11
7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened

13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

Bible details matter.

Rom 11
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Ok then notice then... notice the Bible details that explain the case in Rev 7

Romans 2 for example... matters.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 9 for example... matters

Rom 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Bible details matter.

I DID NOT SAY...………...The Bible quotes were "FUNNY".

I that that is more than a little 'funny' that you view
the copy and pasted words from a SDA commentary above the Bible itself.

Major1 · Jun 13, 2018

BobRyan said:
Well that is what the Bible says as I keep showing the texts about there being
1. No humans left - all dead bodies scattered all across the earth with no one to bury them as we saw in the texts quoted
2. And Rev 19 says that after killing all the armies opposing Christ --"the rest are killed"
3. And John 14 says that Jesus takes all the saints to heaven when He shows up. We also see that in 1Thess 4.
4. And Matthew 24 says that happens "immediately after the great tribulation.

Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.

Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.

26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

Jer 25:33
""Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

Zeph 1:18
Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,

It is obviously a World Wide Calamity – world wide catastrophe

Isaiah 24
17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.

those texts are in the actual Bible and "Bible details matter"

By contrast - the actual Bible "detail" is that it states it is 'the whole earth'

Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken

It is completely in error to try and ignore every detail in it that does not fit your preferences.

Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.

26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

And it also says

all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.

until you note "the details" -- dead bodies all across the earth -- no one left to bury them nor relatives/family to lament them.

Jer 25:33
""Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

The Earth itself split through, broken, shaken -- the Earth reels to and fro

Isaiah 24
17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.

ZEPHANIAH 1:18
CONTEXT demands something different that what you want to believe.
Zeph. is referring to the coming BAYLONIAN Invasion.
Verse 4 says..……"And I will stretch out my hand upon JUDAH and upon all the inhabitants of JERUSALEM...….".

Zeph 1:18
Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

And END of all inhabitants of the Earth.

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth" Gen 1:1
"in six days the LORD made the heavens and the Earth and all that is in them" Ex 20:11

You are making the classic error of "Cherry Picking" a verse or chapter here and there ignoring the details that do not fit your preference and holding to YOUR theology despite the details.

On the contrary.

Isaiah 9
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this.

Is a LOCAL reference to Isaiah 8
3 So I approached the prophetess, and she conceived and gave birth to a son. Then the Lord said to me, “Name him Maher-shalal-hash-baz; 4 for before the boy knows how to cry out ‘My father’ or ‘My mother,’ the wealth of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria will be carried away before the king of Assyria.”

But it has a global eschatological reference to Christ far in the future.

Clearly many details in chapter 9 cannnot be shoehorned into that limited scope of chapter 8.

Same verses used again. You are indeed a broken record and I have to say this with all due respect to you, when anyone does as you are doing, you lose the respect of those who are reading your words.

Your theology is so far there from what the Bible actually says, no one really wants to talk with you as can be seen by the number of people who are not joining in.

Again You have used Scriptures that do not mean what YOU interpret them to mean.

YOU SAID AGAIN...………………
1. No humans left - all dead bodies scattered all across the earth with no one to
burry them as we saw in the texts quoted.
NOPE! YOU used OLd Test. Scriptures that refer to a different time and space. There are NO Scriptures which say that dead bodies will be scattered all over the earth during the 1000 year Kingdom of Christ on the Earth. There are Scriptures which have been explained to you that refer to the Babylonian invasion of Israel but they can be used to apply to the End of the Age.

2. And Rev 19 says that after killing all the armies opposing Christ --"the rest are killed".
NOPE! That is what YOU want It to say. What is actually said however is-
According to Zechariah 14:3-4, when Jesus returns He will come first to the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem. The plea of Isaiah 64:1-2 is now fulfilled:
"Oh, that You would rend the heavens! That You would come down! That the mountains might shake at Your presence; as fire burns brushwood, as fire causes water to boil; to make Your name known to Your adversaries, that the nations may tremble at Your presence!"

This prayer for deliverance will be on the lips of the Jewish people surviving through the Great Tribulation. Unlikely as it may seem now, they will cry out to Jesus their Messiah for deliverance, and as a whole, they will embrace Him as their Savior. As Jesus said in Matthew 23:39:
"I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!”

There will be people who were saved during the Tribulation and they will enter the 1000 year rule of Christ as HUMAN BEING and they will have children.

3. And John 14 says that Jesus takes all the saints to heaven when He shows up. We also see that in 1Thess 4.
NOPE! Neither one of those Scriptures says that the saints will be taken up when Jesus comes at Armageddon.
John 14:3 has nothing to do with the Rapture and this is the 3rd time I have explained that to you. In 1 Thess. 4 is the RAPTURE and Jesus does not touch the ground. E are called up to meet Him in the air and then we as the church of believers come with Him 7 years later at Armageddon. DETAILS MY FRIEND-----DETAILS!

4. And Matthew 24 says that happens "immediately after the great tribulation.
NOPE! As I have explained to you already, Matthew can not be a reference to the Rapture of the church Matthew 24 is not about the Church which didn’t even exist on the day that they asked Jesus these questions.
YOU as well as many others have failed to grasp the fact that Matthew, Mark and Luke were not written about or for the Christian Church from a doctrinal perspective. It was written to Jews waiting for a Kingdom on Earth, which was postponed, and to those who will be alive on Earth during the time of the Great Tribulation after the Rapture.
But because you have embraced "REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY" YOU have had to change the meaning of the Scriptures to mean what YOU want them to say instead of doing the study to be able to believe them as them are written.

Deut. 4:2...…………
"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."

I am sure that you are a dedicated SDA believer and that you love the Lord Jesus but I must say to you that your understanding of the Bible is flawed IMO and I do hope and pray that you will be able to grow in knowledge of the Scriptures.

BobRyan · Jun 13, 2018

Major1 said:
Same verses used again.

They are irrefutable

Major1 said:
You are indeed a broken record

That is what happens when your argument does not "survive the text" -- instead of "the irrefutable text just going away since it was posted at some time".

I am surprised how often that Bible detail comes as a surprise to some folks.

and I have to say this with all due respect to you, when anyone does as you are doing, you lose the respect

Those who had "hoped" to deal with the irrefutable text by hand waiving and wishful thinking will greet each reminder that the text continues to refute their POV with immediate "loss of respect" for it -- such that "the mere post of the text" is sufficient to earn their "loss of respect".

Which is "odd" because they first try to "spin the text" as if it makes their case (in which case they should LOVE to see that text "again" which they claim so "makes their case").

But instead they out-themselves by revealing that the mere post of the text is sufficient cause for them to give rise to strong objection to it.

The objective unbiased Bible students "will notice" as it turns out.

Your theology is so far there from what the Bible actually says,

You have used Scriptures that do not mean what YOU interpret them to mean then when I show this to be the case with texts that you cannot spin -- you complain that we are "seeing those texts".

How "instructive".

I must say to you that your understanding of the Bible is flawed IMO and I do hope and pray that you will be able to grow in knowledge of the Scriptures.

Major1 · Jun 13, 2018

BobRyan said:
They are irrefutable

That is what happens when your argument does not "survive the text" -- instead of "the irrefutable text just going away since it was posted at some time".

I am surprised how often that Bible detail comes as a surprise to some folks.

Those who had "hoped" to deal with the irrefutable text by hand waiving and wishful thinking will greet each reminder that the text continues to refute their POV with immediate "loss of respect" for it -- such that "the mere post of the text" is sufficient to earn their "loss of respect".

Which is "odd" because they first try to "spin the text" as if it makes their case (in which case they should LOVE to see that text "again" which they claim so "makes their case").

But instead they out-themselves by revealing that the mere post of the text is sufficient cause for them to give rise to strong objection to it.

The objective unbiased Bible students "will notice" as it turns out.

Your theology is so far there from what the Bible actually says,

You have used Scriptures that do not mean what YOU interpret them to mean then when I show this to be the case with texts that you cannot spin -- you complain that we are "seeing those texts".

How "instructive".

I must say to you that your understanding of the Bible is flawed IMO and I do hope and pray that you will be able to grow in knowledge of the Scriptures.

"They are irrefutable".

That is correct. But that is NOT the problem here Bob. The problem is that YOU are using them in the wrong CONTEXT on purpose.

You are choosing to pull out a Scripture that refers to the Babylonian invasion of Israel and make it fit into your "Desolate Earth Theology".

That is NOT irrefutable but instead incorrect exegesis with not reguard to the CONTEXT and time frame of those specific Scriptures.

BobRyan · Jun 13, 2018

Regarding the Texts that I show as making my point .. "by the mere quote of them"

Major1 said:
"They are irrefutable".

no doubt. That is why I always "like to see them" rather than getting irritated by them.

. The problem is that YOU are using them in the wrong CONTEXT on purpose.

If that were remotely true you would show it to be the case. I already showed you by contrast ... the details in those texts you gloss over to make them not apply to the Earth - and I showed you that the same local-event gets used to show a future major event -- principle with Isaiah 8 and 9 which you have conveniently glossed over since it only helps to show my point ... again.

You are choosing to pull out a Scripture that refers to the Babylonian invasion of Israel

Only in its minor local context -- but it contains "details" that in fact do not limit themselves to old Babylon... just as Isaiah 8 and 9 are local but point to the coming of Christ and just as Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 are local - but then point to the much larger issue of the origin of Lucifer and his ultimate destruction.

Bible details matter -- even when they cut across your preferences.

What is irrefutable - and is correct exegesis of the text, with full regard both to CONTEXT and larger scope event that they predict by details they contain, is good clean solid rendering of the texts as quoted including details which cannot even be remotely confined to 'old history'

The objective unbiased Bible student "will notice" this not-so-subtle fact.

BobRyan · Jun 13, 2018

Major1 said:
Again You have used Scriptures that do not mean what YOU interpret them to mean.

YOU SAID AGAIN...………………
1. No humans left - all dead bodies scattered all across the earth with no one to
burry them as we saw in the texts quoted.
NOPE! YOU used OLd Test. Scriptures that refer to a different time and space. There are NO Scriptures which say that dead bodies will be scattered all over the earth during the 1000 year Kingdom of Christ on the Earth. There are Scriptures which have been explained to you that refer to the Babylonian invasion of Israel but they can be used to apply to the End of the Age.

Until you look at 'the details" in the actual texts.

BobRyan said:
Well that is what the Bible says as I keep showing the texts about there being
1. No humans left - all dead bodies scattered all across the earth with no one to bury them as we saw in the texts quoted
2. And Rev 19 says that after killing all the armies opposing Christ --"the rest are killed"
3. And John 14 says that Jesus takes all the saints to heaven when He shows up. We also see that in 1Thess 4.
4. And Matthew 24 says that happens "immediately after the great tribulation.

Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.

Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.

26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

Jer 25:33
""Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

Zeph 1:18
Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,

It is obviously a World Wide Calamity – world wide catastrophe

Isaiah 24
17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.

those texts are in the actual Bible and "Bible details matter"

By contrast - the actual Bible "detail" is that it states it is 'the whole earth'

Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken

It is completely in error to try and ignore every detail in it that does not fit your preferences.

Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.

26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

And it also says

all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.

until you note "the details" -- dead bodies all across the earth -- no one left to bury them nor relatives/family to lament them.

Jer 25:33
""Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

The Earth itself split through, broken, shaken -- the Earth reels to and fro

Isaiah 24
17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.

ZEPHANIAH 1:18
CONTEXT demands something different that what you want to believe.
Zeph. is referring to the coming BAYLONIAN Invasion.
Verse 4 says..……"And I will stretch out my hand upon JUDAH and upon all the inhabitants of JERUSALEM...….".

Zeph 1:18
Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

And END of all inhabitants of the Earth.

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth" Gen 1:1
"in six days the LORD made the heavens and the Earth and all that is in them" Ex 20:11

You are making the classic error of "Cherry Picking" a verse or chapter here and there ignoring the details that do not fit your preference and holding to YOUR theology despite the details.

On the contrary.

Isaiah 9
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this.

Is a LOCAL reference to Isaiah 8
3 So I approached the prophetess, and she conceived and gave birth to a son. Then the Lord said to me, “Name him Maher-shalal-hash-baz; 4 for before the boy knows how to cry out ‘My father’ or ‘My mother,’ the wealth of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria will be carried away before the king of Assyria.”

But it has a global eschatological reference to Christ far in the future.

Clearly many details in chapter 9 cannnot be shoehorned into that limited scope of chapter 8.

As you point out -- I said: "
1. No humans left - all dead bodies scattered all across the earth with no one to
burry them as we saw in the texts quoted."

And I posted this

Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.

26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

Jer 25:33
""Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

1. dead bodies "from one end of earth to the other"
2. No one to bury or lament them
3. Left as dung on the face of the earth.
4. cities destroyed
5. All the birds of heaven gone
6. NO HUMANS

By contrast -- Your preference? "There are NO Scriptures which say that dead bodies will be scattered all over the earth"

And that "preference" needs to be stated that way since neither your view of history nor you view of the future allows for any such thing as the full scope of the texts just quoted.

BobRyan · Jun 13, 2018

BobRyan said:
Bible details matter.

Romans 2 for example... matters.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 9 for example... matters

Rom 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

So we see here that we Bible details with which you have all kinds of problems and it is really does manifest itself in what you are saying.

I would encourage you to read the BIBLE itself and there you would find the truth.
For example, you have tried ignore several Old. Test. Scriptures in your theology without giving any merit to what they say.

Remember... "Bible details matter"

--- accepting Bible details is the way to avoid doctrinal error. I choose the Bible.

Major1 said:
I would encourage to put away the SDA commentaries and stick with the Bible only.

It is more than a little 'funny' that you view quotes of the Bible itself as a quote of some 'SDA commentary".

More focus on "Bible details" please.
==========================================

Major1 said:
I DID NOT SAY...………...The Bible quotes were "FUNNY".

How "nice" then that my statement above did not say "you think the Bible quotes are funny".

Details matter.

I that that is more than a little 'funny' that you view
the copy and pasted words from a SDA commentary above the Bible itself.

You "imagined that" -- since in "real life" I do not quote from SDA commentaries. I quote from the Bible... And I think it is more than a little "funny" that when you see those quote you imagine them as "SDA Bible Commentary".

How "odd".

Of course I am happy to quote from it if you wish - after all Christianity Today reports in 2015 that the SDA denomination is the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world - but I don't quote from the SDA commentary unless someone here "insists".

BobRyan · Jun 13, 2018

Major1 said:
I would encourage to put away the SDA commentaries and stick with the Bible only.

It is more than a little 'funny' that you view quotes of the Bible itself as a quote of some 'SDA commentary".

More focus on "Bible details" please.

2 Timothy 2:15 ..........
" Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

That is where those Bible texts that you are asking not to see again - are coming in.

Romans 11:1
" I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. "

Is followed by

Rom 11
7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened

13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

Bible details matter.

Rom 11
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

IF....IF replacement theology was possible then YOU have a very real problem explaining Revelation 7:4-8.........
“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.”

Ok then notice then... notice the Bible details that explain the case in Rev 7

Romans 2 for example... matters.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 9 for example... matters

Rom 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Bible details matter.

Major1 said:
Replacement Theology which you promote is one of the worst if not the worst of all theologies.

Just not in "real life".

In real life the Bible texts just quoted are much better foundation for Bible doctrine than that little creative-writing snip you propose in response.

Were we just "not supposed to notice"?

More Bible please. Less creative writing.

BobRyan · Jun 13, 2018

EmSw said:
What do you say to the OSAS'ers who say you can continue in your sin and still be saved?

I say they are missing a few Bible details

Major1 said:
Incorrect! We are just not making it up as we go along.

That remains to be seen.

BobRyan · Jun 13, 2018

Major1 said:
You see, I DID NOT SAY or imply that there was something we need to do in order to be saved.

Is there any text in the Bible where God tells the wicked to "do nothing" if they want salvation?

Do you believe in "arbitrary selection"?

Major1 said:
Right here is why so much of your theology is unacceptable. You do not seem to understand the basics of Christianity.

Interesting false accusation - and frankly not even remotely true in real life.

You constantly use the Old. Test. book of Ezekiel which is wonderful but you always only pick out verse YOU like.

I select the verses that make the point. I don't just blindly quote entire chapters hoping that at some level you will eventually "see the point". Just is why you don't like seeing those irrefutable texts come back.

Major1 said:
Well here is one for you to consider.

The Hebrew word for wickedness we find in dozens of Scriptures and is used twice in Ezekiel 18:20. in the Old Testament is typically “rish`ah” and means “guilt” and when used as an adjective is “rasha`” which means “criminal” or “guilty one” or “guilty of crime”. So ultimately, all wickedness is described in the Old Testament as someone who is guilty of committing a crime and is considered a criminal act worthy of punishment in God’s eyes because sin (crime) is against God for, in the end, all sin is against God even though it hurts the person committing it and others around him or her.

Nice - but you don't need to go to the OT to find that point - it is also in the NT.

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
...
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

Major1 said:
So in that context my dear friend YOU were at one time just as WICKED as those you are referring to AND SO WAS I!

YOU and me and everyone else falls under Rom. 3:10-12....
“None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands” and “All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one”.

True - but that is not where our doctrine differs.

Major1 said:
Acts 16:31...……...
"They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Acts 2:21...….
"And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Titus 2:11-12...……..
"For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age."

Rom 6:23...….
“but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Also true ... but that is not where our doctrine differs.

We differ in that I do not pour extreme inference to wrench the text into "God offers all salvation and then revokes their free will"

Major1 said:
The Bible shows us the depravity and the utter helplessness of mankind to do anything in themselves to redeem themselves to be in a right standing before God

True. But that is not where our doctrine differs.

Our doctrine differs in that God supernaturally enables choice for the lost and is able to do that without first making them born-again.

The supernatural drawing of God "alone" is sufficient to enable choice and free will 'I will DRAW ALL mankind to Me" John 12:32

The convicting power of the Holy Spirit "alone" enables that choice and the Spirit "convicts the WORLD" John 16 not "just the born-again".

Hence - Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked" for the "fully forgiven" who did not lose free will upon being forgiven of sin

bbbbbbb · Jun 13, 2018

Major1 said:
It has nothing to do with anyone becoming discussed with the sight of Biblical texts.

What is being said to you is that most people have become disgusted at your insistence of posting the same material over and over expecting a different result.

You have post Ezekiel 32 as an example to say that the "World will be desolate and Ez. 32 is used to validate YOUR OPINION.

I have shown you that every Bible commentator and Scholar and REAL TIME Historical facts proved that Ezekiel 32 was a reference to the Babylonian invasion of Israel.

However, you reject those facts and post that same Scripture again and again trying to validate your false teaching.

Thank you for your reply to Bob. It was much better than the one I would have written.

jamesbond007 · Jun 13, 2018

amariselle said:
Salvation is the same for everyone, and God is not respecter of persons. We are only saved by grace, through faith and not of works (lest any man should boast). Salvation is a gift from God, not a reward for the good things we have done.

It may seem "fair" to us that a "good" person like Mother Theresa would without question be in heaven, while an "evil" person like Adolf Hitler would without question be in hell, but that is not how it works with God. Anyone who truly turns to Him in faith and believes the Gospel will be saved.

And should any of us get caught up in thinking that we or anyone else deserves salvation for living a "good" life, we have apparently forgotten the Scriptures. We are saved by the obedience of One.

We have the Book of Paul. And the Book of James, who is supposed to be Jesus' brother. What you said is a big part of both Paul and James. The Book of James seems to say faith + works. I think both Paul and James say the same thing, but to different audiences. Paul speaks to the Jews and Mosaic Law while James speaks to people who think salvation through faith is enough.

A church can't survive by itself. They need members who support it and do good works in order to keep it running. Works is what is required to be successful in life. Even what I was taught that a good tree produces good fruit seems to state works is involved.

How exactly does it apply to being saved? It starts with faith and belief in Jesus and his redemption, and this is all that is necessary. However, the works is supposed to naturally follow. There has to be some kind of effect that good works does. Does it apply to our positions in heaven? I admire people in our church who do good works. They seem to always be there. A successful church has a system in place where members are eased into works.

"12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." 1 Corinthians 12:15

I would think those who have the sincere deathbed conversions would get in according to Scripture, but have lower positions. Either that or they have to have some kind of purgatory. That could be an interpretation of works through fire.

In Genesis, the Garden of Eden was supposed to be made for all except for Adam's sin. If he hadn't sinned, then it would be enough for all. In this fallen scenario. only those who fit through a narrow gate make it.

EmSw · Jun 13, 2018

Major1 said:
I said that because YOU have stated that you believe that we lose our salvation when we sin. According to your thinking then YOU have lost your salvation because YOU have sinned after you were saved.

I did not say you lose your salvation when you sin. It is continual disobedience in sinning. I also mentioned there is forgiveness when we repent.

Major1 said:
Do you then get saved over and over when you sin and disobey God??????

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

No one perishes in this life. It is when we die, and until then He patiently waits for us to repent.

Major1 said:
Now, I for one do not know of anyone who believes in OSAS who thinks that they can continue in sin.

I do know several Pentecostal believers who use that as an argument against OSAS but I do not know of any truly born again and Bible educated people who think of such a thing.

If I may say so, it sounds like salvation is conditional with you.

jamesbond007 · Jun 13, 2018

Major1 said:
I have to tell you my brother that your thought here is incorrect. "PURGATORY" is the official position of the RCC.

From paragraphs 1030-1032 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church...……..

"All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent."

As for the Bible, again, there are NO SCRIPTURES IN THE BIBLE that teach, or hint or suggest a place of purification called "limbo or Purgatory".

It is purely a doctrine from the minds of men and NOT the Word of God.

I've answered part of this in post #455. Sorry, I didn't see your posts before it. What I was comparing in the RCC is limbo to purgatory and that the latter is doctrine.

As for scriptures in the Bible, purgatory is based on Paul's writings in 1 Corinthians. He is speaking to those divided among the temple in Corinth.

"10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.

18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,” 20 and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” 21 So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23 and you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s." 1 Corinthians 10:23

Clearly, Paul validates grace again, but he also mentions the trial of one's works by fire. Those whose works were wood, hay or straw would experience loss. Thus, the RCC interpreted it as a purgatory or trial by fire. If you don't think that it exists, then it's fine. It just allows more people to enter heaven. For example, those we believed in God, but didn't understand the Bible and Christian doctrines as the Trinity, but still remained faithful and did works of gold, silver and precious stones.

Major1 said:
James 2:14 is referring to those who are saved and after salvation the proof of it is that they will do good works. Good works is the PRODUCT of salvation and it is not the vehicle of it.

The Trinity is not in the Bible either. Do you accept it as doctrine????

Of course. It was a doctrine made in the Council of Nicaea. What you criticize in Catholic doctrine also holds true for Christians. I think the disagreements we have with the RCC will be reealed in the trial by fire of one's works. Paul was talking about disagreements within the temple of Cornth members, but also could apply to us today.

amariselle · Jun 13, 2018

jamesbond007 said:
We have the Book of Paul. And the Book of James, who is supposed to be Jesus' brother. What you said is a big part of both Paul and James. The Book of James seems to say faith + works. I think both Paul and James say the same thing, but to different audiences. Paul speaks to the Jews and Mosaic Law while James speaks to people who think salvation through faith is enough.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the Book of Paul". Most of Paul's Epistles were actually written to Gentiles, as he was the "apostle to the Gentiles"[Romans 11:13]. Hebrews is disputed, and many believe it was not written by Paul.

James was most definitely written to saved, believing Jews "the twelve tribes scattered abroad." The diaspora. (James 1:1)

Both Paul and James were writing to already saved believers to encourage them in their faith or to at times correct or even chastise them for not living out their faith as they should. They did not write to tell these already saved believers (Jewish or Gentile) how to be saved or stay saved.

jamesbond007 said:
A church can't survive by itself. They need members who support it and do good works in order to keep it running. Works is what is required to be successful in life. Even what I was taught that a good tree produces good fruit seems to state works is involved.

I did not say "good works" aren't required to edify or build up the Church. However, people do not become true members of the Church through "good works" but through being saved, by faith in the Gospel and born again. The Church is made up of true believers. Nor is the true Church sustained on earthly wealth or prosperity. We actually see throughout history, that it is in times of great persecution and struggle that the Church grows all the stronger. The Church is sustained by God, not man.

jamesbond007 said:
How exactly does it apply to being saved? It starts with faith and belief in Jesus and his redemption, and this is all that is necessary.

It does not just "start" with faith, it is always by faith.

jamesbond007 said:
However, the works is supposed to naturally follow. There has to be some kind of effect that good works does. Does it apply to our positions in heaven? I admire people in our church who do good works. They seem to always be there. A successful church has a system in place where members are eased into works.

Saved unto good works, not by good works.

jamesbond007 said:
"12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." 1 Corinthians 12:15

Yes, and what (or rather, Who) is our "foundation."? How do those verses say that our "good works" save us?

jamesbond007 said:
I would think those who have the sincere deathbed conversions would get in according to Scripture, but have lower positions. Either that or they have to have some kind of purgatory. That could be an interpretation of works through fire.

Purgatory is another subject altogether, but it is a view not supported by Scripture. (As purgatory is either a place or a state where sins are "purged". Scripture tells us plainly that Christ alone purged all of our sins on the cross, and that without blood there is no remission of sins. The doctrine of Purgatory denies both of these Biblical truths.)

jamesbond007 said:
In Genesis, the Garden of Eden was supposed to be made for all except for Adam's sin. If he hadn't sinned, then it would be enough for all. In this fallen scenario. only those who fit through a narrow gate make it.

And Who is that "narrow gate"?

Romans 5:8-21

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

BobRyan · Jun 13, 2018

jamesbond007 said:
We have the Book of Paul. And the Book of James, who is supposed to be Jesus' brother. What you said is a big part of both Paul and James. The Book of James seems to say faith + works. I think both Paul and James say the same thing, but to different audiences.

1. No such thing as 'the book of Paul' that I have ever heard of.
2. Romans 2:13 agrees perfectly with James 2:16-24
3. Romans 5:1 only contradicts James 2:24 to the extent that you might suppose that Rom 2:13 differs with Rom 5:1

Has nothing to do with Jew vs Gentile reader.

jamesbond007 · Jun 13, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
Regarding your last paragraph....I've had this conversation with a couple of priests.

This is the question:
Is Jesus enough to save us?
Or do we need to do penance and go to purgatory?

Belief in Jesus and his Redemption is enough to save us. Assuming this is sincere and from the heart.

What if one died in unconfessed sin? We are imperfect humans, so we could be in sin, such as broke one of the ten commandments or other objective moral violations and die. This is where I think the idea of purgatory is a fair one. It doesn't specifically say in 1 Corinthians that the believer goes through fire himself, but if their works is judged then their sins should be judged, too. So how does Jesus resolve one's sins? He would provide a way to cleanse oneself of their sins. Christians do not teach nor believe in purgatory, so we're entering the RCC doctrine which you mention. I'm not sure if that's exactly what I am talking about. Christians believe that if one confesses to God of their sin and asked to be forgiven, then they will. However, if it remains unconfessed, then they are not saved. The idea of a purgatory would give them a way to be saved.

bbbbbbb · Jun 13, 2018

jamesbond007 said:
Belief in Jesus and his Redemption is enough to save us. Assuming this is sincere and from the heart.

What if one died in unconfessed sin? We are imperfect humans, so we could be in sin, such as broke one of the ten commandments or other objective moral violations and die. This is where I think the idea of purgatory is a fair one. It doesn't specifically say in 1 Corinthians that the believer goes through fire himself, but if their works is judged then their sins should be judged, too. So how does Jesus resolve one's sins? He would provide a way to cleanse oneself of their sins. Christians do not teach nor believe in purgatory, so we're entering the RCC doctrine which you mention. I'm not sure if that's exactly what I am talking about. Christians believe that if one confesses to God of their sin and asked to be forgiven, then they will. However, if it remains unconfessed, then they are not saved. The idea of a purgatory would give them a way to be saved.

I am always amazed at the narrow definition of sin that most people seem to have. There are literally thousands of unconfessed sins that you are guilty of at present, of which you are probably totally unaware of. For example, James tells us that if we do not do what is right, then it is sin. There are thousands of good things that I could, and probably ought, to be doing that I am not. Likewise, ignorance is no excuse in the sight of God. There are people who do not understand that murder is sin and, therefore, murder other folks. They are just as guilty as the murderer who knows that it is sin.

The fact is, that every time you go to confession you do not confess every sin you have committed against God - because you are either quite unaware of them or you consider most of them to be too trivial to confess. If you did confess every thought, word, and deed - done or undone - you would probably spend the rest of your life in the confessional.

OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

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