OSAS: Can salvation be lost?

[The Midge]

Excellent questions...These are the same questions I have had of those who lose their salvation. Only yours are more clearly stated.

I have really only had one honest answer to those questions. I think it was a good answer in that it helped me understand how a christian could live with the ax constantly hanging over his head. I disagree with the his conclusions, however.

He defined holiness and sin differently than you and I do. He said there is God's holiness and man's holiness. Man is not expected to reach the level of God's holiness, we are only expected to be holy as a man can be holy.

Sin is defined as making a conscious decision to disobey God. A white lie that you make without thinking about it isn't sin, anger isn't sin, pride isn't sin, laziness isn't necessarily sin. These character flaws could become sin if you realized at the time that you were going to act in way that went against God and went ahead and did it anyway.

So he feels christians can in fact be holy and sinless, by those definitions of holiness and sinfullness.

I don't know if this is a common way of looking at things but it at least helped me understand how some of those type of christians understand things differently.

What do you make of this then:

1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 1Pe 1:15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 1Pe 1:16 for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

We are meant to be Holy, no doubt about that. The question is it being constantly Holy saves us or not? The problem for OSNAS is that mankind is not Holy all the time. The only thing that makes us Holy is the Blood of Christ not our deeds.

 

[Curt]

We are meant to be Holy, no doubt about that. The question is it being constantly Holy saves us or not? The problem for OSNAS is that mankind is not Holy all the time. The only thing that makes us Holy is the Blood of Christ not our deeds.

But we can be Holy all the time because first of all there are so many Scriptures that command us to, and God is not unreasonable to command us to do something we can't do. Thats why He gave us The freewill to choose that way. He gives us The Holy Spirit who will be in us to empower us each step of the way as we exercise our freewill to choose to follow His instructions, we choose He empowers. the only place we are on our own is in the choice. But because God created us that way, and in His likness and image He will not force us.

 

[theFijian]

Who's sins did he die for? Did he not die for the sins of the ENTIRE world? Are we saved without repentance? Are we? According to how you use that verse, you can say we are saved since he died although we may not repent. Once again he died for ALL sins, but are ALL saved?

Ok so your contention is that the writer of Hebrew's is saying in ch10:12 that Christ died for the sins of the entire world and is not making any reference to Christ havind died once, for all sins.

The content of Heb 10 is Christ as our High Priest and a comparison is made with the high priests of the Old Testament. These high priests had to continually make intercession for the people because 'it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.' And for what people specifically was it that the high priests of the Old Testament carried out sacrifices? The Israelites, God's covenant people. (Amongst the Israelites were of course proselytites from other nations who had come to serve the God of Israel). So if this comparison which the writer draws is to make any sense, for whom did Christ die on the Cross? His chosen elect people, Rom 8 - 'those foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.'

Your notion that in v12 '....for all time one sacrifice for sins....' actually means '....not for all time just past sins only and for the sins of the whole world...' is a bit puzzling.

Fancy answering some of my earlier questions, I think you've had plenty of time to answer dont you?

blessings,

Andy

 

[oakraven65]

will say to you again, i was once diehard Baptist and diehard OSAS--i preached it and believed it, until God opened my eyes, and i saw the truth.

As a diehard Baptist and diehard OSAS I mean that our opinion about salvation and its nature will not change the work of Jesus Christ for you and me..

In my theological classes we have been taught all the point of views, Arminian , you find it good being arminian - Ok no problem - Arminian believe in salvation by grace by the means of faith ? Aren't they ..

The problem with the Bible - Is - I have spent some years studying these points checking arminians wesleyan et calvinist to the Bible ..

Is "Both are true" ..

Yes we can find an huge amount of verses, supporting OSAS and an huge amount of verses supporting the decheance of the forfeiture of grace ..

Is there any solution ?
Hebrews epistle relates to a major sin, apostasy, only true believers can become apostate..
In the case, christians coming from the ancient religion are tempted to come back to the ancient religion.. Leaving Christ..

And leaving the salvation by grace to the salvation by good works.. Because of their disappointment..

In this case - could we say it is a temptation and people will be supported to overcome it ? That is grace too.;

The other point is about Romans 11:29-32 - the unfathomable will of God :

And about the election ..

29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,

31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[8] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you.

32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them al

As nobody could be saved by good works (neithe Jews nor Pagans) , God has decided to bind all men over to disobedience - To have mercy on them ALL.;

The intent, the explanation is in the will of God .. Unfathomable.. It means a mystery, we cannot explain it totally.. It is a part of the faith - A creed we have to confess..

One question : in your theological schools (OSAS ot NOT) have you been familiar with "other sides" opinion , I mean , in depth, studying with people who had not the same opinion - and didnot want to change..Years of studyschool are long ..?

 

[Charismaniack]

Excelent Point

 

[Charismaniack]

In the last few months I have been studying on and off with OSAS'ers and OSNAS'ers. It's nescesarry to understand the other side.

 

[Godsone]

It is impossible to live without sin. If everyone who still has sin is gonna die and go to hell, EVERYONE will be in hell.

 

[marcie]

GOOD WORKS DONT SAVE YOU FAITH DOES, HOWEVER OSAS DOES NOT INTERPRET OR DEFINE WHAT IT MEANS TO HAVE REAL BELIEF AND FAITH IN CHRIST.


ITS ALSO MEANS ACTON, LOVE, OBEDIENCE AND ENDURANCE.


AS LONG AS YOU ELIMINATE COMMANDS, COMMANDMENTS... LAWS,,, ETC.,ETC.

YOU ARE NOT FOLLOWING THE TESTIMONY OF CHRIST.

 

[billwald]

Question is moot because there is no objective test for the state of being saved.

 

[marcie]

billwald,

I have had enough of carnal christianity, I cannot listen anymore to people who claim they have faith and teach others to omit the commandments. For this is Faith, and to claim they were done away with is Satans doctrine.

Its a sin,against Gods word.

 

[marcie]

The problem is modern preachers have twisted this message to 'accommodate' the carnality of man and keep them comfortable. They have done an excellent job! Many churches are rolling right alone in a dream world, conducting two or more services a week, with massive social programs and community outreach, while the moral degeneration of our society reaches epic proportions. And they hardly notice!

 

[nobdysfool]

The problem is modern preachers have twisted this message to 'accommodate' the carnality of man and keep them comfortable. They have done an excellent job! Many churches are rolling right alone in a dream world, conducting two or more services a week, with massive social programs and community outreach, while the moral degeneration of our society reaches epic proportions. And they hardly notice!

Sounds like those "mainline" churches to me! That's not what's happening in the Reformed, Baptist, and other Evangelical churches. Those mainline churches that you hold up as the paragons of virtue, piety, and doctrinal correctness are the ones with the social programs, community outreach, and in the case of some, serious sexual sin problems. Oh,and it is the mainline churches that hardly notice the moral degradation, because THEY'RE THE ONES PROMOTING IT!

 

[marcie]

“I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If ANYONE adds to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book; AND IF ANYONE (Hey Baptists! Does the word “Anyone” also include saved Baptists???) takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, GOD SHALL TAKE AWAY HIS PART FROM THE TREE OF LIFE AND FROM THE HOLY CITY, which are written in this book.” Revelation 22: 18&19

Well, gee, this sure sounds to me like a clear refutation of the “once saved, always saved” party line. It does say “anyone,” which would include even Baptist Christians.

And it does say that these Christians were saved- they had their part of the tree of life already reserved. And then it goes on to say that God would CANCEL their reservation and keep them out of heaven, out of the “holy city.” Unless, of course, the Baptists have a special heaven all to themselves where they don’t need the “tree of life” to live forever, and don’t need to live in the “holy city” with God. In fact, maybe the Baptists are actually planning to boycott heaven.

 

[EternallySecure]

“I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If ANYONE adds to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book; AND IF ANYONE (Hey Baptists! Does the word “Anyone” also include saved Baptists???) takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, GOD SHALL TAKE AWAY HIS PART FROM THE TREE OF LIFE AND FROM THE HOLY CITY, which are written in this book.” Revelation 22: 18&19

Well, gee, this sure sounds to me like a clear refutation of the “once saved, always saved” party line. It does say “anyone,” which would include even Baptist Christians.

And it does say that these Christians were saved- they had their part of the tree of life already reserved. And then it goes on to say that God would CANCEL their reservation and keep them out of heaven, out of the “holy city.” Unless, of course, the Baptists have a special heaven all to themselves where they don’t need the “tree of life” to live forever, and don’t need to live in the “holy city” with God. In fact, maybe the Baptists are actually planning to boycott heaven.

Being that a true believer in Jesus Christ can never perish (John 10:27-30), and has everlasting life, and shall not come in to condemnation, but has already passed from death unto life (John 5:24)...the verses you quote (Rev. 22:18-19) are not not describing saved children of God.

Obviously, those tampering with the Word of God, adding to it, or taking away from it, are lost unregenerate people, or Apostate phony Christians, which we see so much in professing Christendom today.

People who call them Christians but deny that the Bible is the Word of God, or cults who re-write Scriptures, and come up with their own versions of the Bible. No names need to be mentioned, but they both like to send people out to knock on doors to win converts. These are who these warnings are too...not truly saved children of God.

Marcie, what does John 10:27-30 say about His sheep? They shall never what?

 

[verismo]

As a convert from a OSAS Faith to one that does not believe OSAS, I found that the big problem was terminology. People were using the word Salvation to describe the gift we got from the Sacrifice at Calvary. Wereas I think that is is better to refer to that as Redemption. Salvation would then refer to what would describe being accepted into Heaven. That is a future event that is not assured for anyone. The best you can do is hope, and "Work out your Salvation wit hfear and trembling".

So, yes, once you are Saved, i.e. once you die, and if Jesus takes you to Heaven, you will not leave Heaven. But if you are still on Earth, you haven't been "Saved" yet, but as a Christian, you are "Redeemed, or if you like, "saved" from Sin and Death, and that person hopes to be Saved at the end of the race.

So, I would say it is not true that Once Redeemed Automatically Saved. Which is what they mean, but I think if they separated the terms, and really looked at Scripture, they would see that yes, when the word Saved is used to describe what we get from Calvary, true we can't loose that, BUT Scripture does not say, whatever term you want to use, that once you are redeemed from Sin, you are ASSURED Heaven absolutely regardless of what you do or say or feel, or the nature of your relationship with God.

If a Christian were to die in a state of rebellion to the Holy Spirit, unrepentant of serious sin, it would be an offence to Divine justice for that person to go to Heaven. If God were to allow that person into Heaven it would not be Mercy, it would be indulgence, and breaking His own Word

However; only Christ is in a position to judge, He alone knows our hearts. Therefore Praise be to God for the wonderful blessing of Purgatory so that those of us who are in the Divine Sonship of Christ can be washed clean in the blood of the Lamb of our final imperfections and enter after our due time into Glory with our God.

Sorry, I got a little carried away there. teehee

 

[Ripper]

This conversation is about as intelligent as discussing whether or not we keep or lose our birthday.

 

[verismo]

Being that a true believer in Jesus Christ can never perish (John 10:27-30), and has everlasting life, and shall not come in to condemnation, but has already passed from death unto life (John 5:24)...the verses you quote (Rev. 22:18-19) are not not describing saved children of God.

Obviously, those tampering with the Word of God, adding to it, or taking away from it, are lost unregenerate people, or Apostate phony Christians, which we see so much in professing Christendom today.

People who call them Christians but deny that the Bible is the Word of God, or cults who re-write Scriptures, and come up with their own versions of the Bible. No names need to be mentioned, but they both like to send people out to knock on doors to win converts. These are who these warnings are too...not truly saved children of God.

Marcie, what does John 10:27-30 say about His sheep? They shall never what?

This type of understanding says to me that the place that we really do not stand on common ground is man's free will, further down the line would come the question of the ability of the loss of Heaven. The sheep shall not perish (that is to die/be killed apart from the Will of the Shepherd/sheep), nor shall they be snatched from the Father's hand. Ok, of course, but this does not address the idea that man is or is not ABLE to decline that leadership. To kill itself, to remove itself from the protection of the Father's hand. Which is the main concept behind the understanding that man can loose Heaven, that he choose to, not that God dropped him, or that the Redemption wasn't strong enough but that man has free will from the Father to follow Him, or Deny Him, yes even after believing in Him.

 

[Curt]

Quote:
Being that a true believer in Jesus Christ can never perish (John 10:27-30), and has everlasting life, and shall not come in to condemnation, but has already passed from death unto life (John 5:24)...the verses you quote (Rev. 22:18-19) are not not describing saved children of God.

[That true believer who will never perish is identified all over The Bible as the one who will finish the race, continue in the way of righteousness, not crucify Christ again, not like the dog return to his vomit, or like the sow to wallowing in the mud.]

 

[Curt]

Christ talking,

Matt 25:1-12
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
(KJV)

He said they were all virgins But only 5 got in.

Matt 25:13
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
(KJV)

I'm sure the other 5 felt pretty secure in the fact that they were virgins but alas they lost out because of a false sense of security, just like all the Jews that thought the decendancy from Abraham was their assurance. Don't be caught up in false doctrines that will put you in the same place.

 

[Bulldog]

Christ talking,

Matt 25:1-12
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
(KJV)

He said they were all virgins.

How does this prove that salvation acn be lost?