Orthodoxy and the Heresy of Universalism

[All4Christ]

it depends on if we are speaking of God’s ontological will, or His permissive will according to St Maximos.

both are true for this verse, by the way.

Ahh - which writing does he talk about ontological will vs permissive will? Definitely a topic I’ve been trying to find.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Ahh - which writing does he talk about ontological will vs permissive will? Definitely a topic I’ve been trying to find.

(don’t quote me because it’s been a while) in his defenses of the two wills in Christ. I think his dispute with Pyrrhus is a good place to start.

 

[All4Christ]

(don’t quote me because it’s been a while) in his defenses of the two wills in Christ. I think his dispute with Pyrrhus is a good place to start.

Thanks!

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thanks!

no problem! I think St John Damascene gets into it in his Exact Exposition

 

[ArmyMatt]

and I will add, any work on the Divine Providence

 

[IoanC]

hypothesis

hī-pŏth′ĭ-sĭs

noun​

1. A tentative explanation for an observation, phenomenon, or scientific problem that can be tested by further investigation.
2. Something taken to be true for the purpose of argument or investigation; an assumption.
3. The antecedent of a conditional statement.

Tentative explanation? That's not the way most people approach the teaching of eternal, conscious torment aka "hell." I would say that for the majority of those professing some form of the Christian faith, it is a settled issue with no room for doubt that it actually exists.

Also, I might be splitting hairs rather finely here, but 1 Timothy 2:4 is a little stronger than "want."

1Timothy 2:4
who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;

It seems to me that there is a difference between wanting something (a fond desire, a wish) and willing something (it shall get done, period.) But again, perhaps splitting hairs here.

I meant hypothesis as in a possibility. I don't know of anybody who is definitely going to hell, so hell remains a real possibility. Did God curse some people or certain kinds of people in The Holy Scriptures? They may be closest to hell. Yet, only a sinner might know if he is going to hell, because God Himself is only pure light and love and does not wish that such a Presence causes the torment of others. But you have to fail really badly in order to mistake light for darkness, and good for evil.
Isaiah 5:20
"20Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

 

[Deafsilence]

Nobody will be eternally tormented.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Darkness will not get an unending triumph.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Nobody will be eternally tormented.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Darkness will not get an unending triumph.

this is condemned as heresy in our Church. please take note of the subforum in which you are posting.

 

[prodromos]

Nobody will be eternally tormented.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Darkness will not get an unending triumph.

John 3:19-21

And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.​

 

[ArmyMatt]

John 3:19-21

And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.​

“The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born.” -Mark 14:21

“The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.” -Matthew 26:24

“And truly the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!” -Luke 22:22

I wonder how is it better for Judas to never have been born, and yet not be in eternal torment?

 

[Deafsilence]

Nobody will be eternally tormented.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Darkness will not get an unending triumph.

If it is not allowed here, I will post it twice elsewhere. Thank you for letting me know.

 

[ArmyMatt]

If it is not allowed here, I will post it twice elsewhere. Thank you for letting me know.

we have a debate forum, should you want to debate us (St Justin’s)

 

[Deafsilence]

we have a debate forum, should you want to debate us (St Justin’s)

I'm open to anything with those that think logically and discuss matters rationally.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I'm open to anything with those that think logically and discuss matters rationally.

then that would be the place to take it if you want a discussion.

 

[ArmyMatt]

and just for clarity I mean the debate forum here on The Ancient Way. that way you can engage us and our position, which makes it harder to delve into a free-for-all.

 

[All4Christ]

St. Justin Martyr's Corner: Debate an Orthodox Chr

www.christianforums.com