Orthodoxy and the Heresy of Universalism

[zippy2006]

I have been pondering Orthodoxy of late. One thing that gives me pause is the present-day lack of resistance to the heresy of Universalism, and the promulgation of that heresy by Orthodox Christians. Specifically I have in mind David Bentley Hart's That All Shall Be Saved and Fr. Al Kimel's Destined for Joy: The Gospel of Universal Salvation.

It is clear that all orthodox Christians recognize that Universalism was a heresy which was definitively condemned at the Second Council of Constantinople in 553, and yet the Orthodox bishops seem content to let heretics like Hart and Kimel proceed unopposed. Kimel is even an Orthodox priest. What is going on here? Why are the bishops silent? And can Orthodoxy be said to maintain the ancient tradition of the faith if its bishops will not oppose uncontroversial heresies? It seems to me that this is one of the most pernicious heresies of our age, for it comes from the lips of secular wolves in sheep's clothing and has all the power of Caesar behind it. This is concerning, and raises doubts in my mind about Orthodoxy.

Thanks for your thoughts,
-Zip

 

[Phronema]

Fortunately this sort of thinking is only expressed by a minority in Orthodoxy. Even St. Gregory of Nyssa himself was fortunately in the minority on this particular point despite his other immense, and orthodox contributions.

Otherwise I agree with you, and I think the bishops should speak out about it. I do hope at some point they do.

Also, personally I disregard DBH, and people like him. There's a plethora of orthodox writings from Church Fathers, and Mothers available to us which have been scrutinized through the ages by many Saints, and aren't controversial; so I stick with those rather than the modern writings. Many modern writings/writers are heavily influenced by modernity, and secularization.

To me this is the same "feel good Gospel" being preached by so many Protestants today. The idea of universalism causes us to let our guard down, and discontinue struggling for the Kingdom. It's a trick of the evil one, imo. God certainly loves us, and He wishes for our salvation, but the reality is there are those who will find His presence to be repugnant, and He will honor their free will.


If you're interested here's an open letter from Dr. David Ford of St. Tikhon's Orthodox Seminary to Fr. Aidan regarding universalism, and it's well worth a read, imo.

Edit : Fr. Al Kimel is a retired priest, and no longer serves.

Open Letter to Fr. Al Kimel

 

[zippy2006]

Fortunately this sort of thinking is only expressed by a minority in Orthodoxy. Even St. Gregory of Nyssa himself was fortunately in the minority on this particular point despite his other immense, and orthodox contributions.

I agree.

Otherwise I agree with you, and I think the bishops should speak out about it. I do hope at some point they do.

Okay.

Also, personally I disregard DBH, and people like him. There's a plethora of orthodox writings from Church Fathers, and Mothers available to us which have been scrutinized through the ages by many Saints, and aren't controversial; so I stick with those rather than the modern writings. Many modern writings/writers are heavily influenced by modernity, and secularization.

I also disregard DBH and I believe he is quickly losing credibility, but on the other hand I do see a need for modern theologians to address new problems arising today.

To me this is the same "feel good Gospel" being preached by so many Protestants today. The idea of universalism causes us to let our guard down, and discontinue struggling for the Kingdom. It's a trick of the evil one, imo. God certainly loves us, and He wishes for our salvation, but the reality is there are those who will find His presence to be repugnant, and He will honor their free will.

Well said!

If you're interested here's an open letter from Dr. David Ford of St. Tikhon's Orthodox Seminary to Fr. Aidan regarding universalism, and it's well worth a read, imo.

Thank you for this. I will give it a read.

Edit : Fr. Al Kimel is a retired priest, and no longer serves.

Ah, okay. If he were an active priest he would probably be disciplined?

 

[Lukaris]

Orthodox Christianity clearly teaches the eventual reality of everlasting life and everlasting condemnation. On Sunday of the Last Judgment ( Matthew 25:31-46) as we proceed to Great Lent we are especially reminded.

Learn: Judgement (Meatfare) Sunday - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

The Sunday of the Last Judgment is the third Sunday of a three-week period prior to the commencement of Great Lent. During this time, the services of the Church have begun to include hymns from the Triodion, a liturgical book that contains the services from the Sunday of the Publican and the...

www.goarch.org

 

[ArmyMatt]

yeah, really only DBH and Fr Aiden take this seriously. and by “this” I mean DBH’s nonsense.

 

[zippy2006]

yeah, really only DBH and Fr Aiden take this seriously. and by “this” I mean DBH’s nonsense.

Hart is quickly losing credibility for good reason, but until he squanders all of his credibility I fear that he will mislead many. Or at least he is liable to mislead those would-be Christians who have no need to convert after hearing Hart's Universalism. At present he has significant influence, a large audience, and a university position. Fr. Kimel is really one of Hart's disciples, and I believe that Hart co-authored Kimel's book.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Hart is quickly losing credibility for good reason, but until he squanders all of his credibility I fear that he will mislead many. Or at least he is liable to mislead those would-be Christians who have no need to convert after hearing Hart's Universalism. At present he has significant influence, a large audience, and a university position. Fr. Kimel is really one of Hart's disciples, and I believe that Hart co-authored Kimel's book.

when I was in Seminary, no one from any of the seminaries took him seriously when we got together for OISM meetings.

 

[Der Alte]

I have been involved in this struggle, right here, for at least 2 decades. I think I have read every argument and out-of-context proof text which exists. One question I have asked many times, show me one vs., 2 or more would be better, where the Father, Himself, or Jesus, Himself says unequivocally that all mankind will be saved, even after death? I have never seen that verse. But I have 2 passages which alone disprove Universal Reconciliation.

Jeremiah 13:11-14​

(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto Me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD, that they might be unto Me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory; but they would not hearken. ​

(12) Moreover thou shalt speak unto them this word: Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel: 'Every bottle is filled with wine'; and when they shall say unto thee: 'Do we not know that every bottle is filled with wine?'​

(13) Then shalt thou say unto them: Thus saith the LORD: Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.​

(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD; I will not pity, nor spare, nor have compassion, that I should not destroy them.​

= = =​

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many will say to me in that day, [Judgement day]Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

 

[ArmyMatt]

I have been involved in this struggle, right here, for at least 2 decades. I think I have read every argument and out-of-context proof text which exists. One question I have asked many times, show me one vs., 2 or more would be better, where the Father, Himself, or Jesus, Himself says unequivocally that all mankind will be saved, even after death? I have never seen that verse. But I have 2 passages which alone disprove Universal Reconciliation.

Jeremiah 13:11-14​

(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto Me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD, that they might be unto Me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory; but they would not hearken. ​

(12) Moreover thou shalt speak unto them this word: Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel: 'Every bottle is filled with wine'; and when they shall say unto thee: 'Do we not know that every bottle is filled with wine?'​

(13) Then shalt thou say unto them: Thus saith the LORD: Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.​

(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD; I will not pity, nor spare, nor have compassion, that I should not destroy them.​

= = =​

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many will say to me in that day, [Judgement day]Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Christ also says it would have been better for Judas to never have been born.

 

[prodromos]

Regarding St Gregory of Nyssa, he is misrepresented as holding to Universalism. I've seen a few of his so called Universalist quotes and they were all taken out of context. When he speaks of all evil being removed, he is only speaking of the saved.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Regarding St Gregory of Nyssa, he is misrepresented as holding to Universalism. I've seen a few of his so called Universalist quotes and they were all taken out of context. When he speaks of all evil being removed, he is only speaking of the saved.

a guy I knew from seminary did his PhD on Nyssa, and basically says you can say he is the most optimistic at the potential that all will be saved if you look at his entire writings, but no further.

 

[Der Alte]

a guy I knew from seminary did his PhD on Nyssa, and basically says you can say he is the most optimistic at the potential that all will be saved if you look at his entire writings, but no further.

Various ECF are frequently quoted as supporting Universal Reconciliation [UR]. It does not matter if a ECF promotes UR unless they are quoting scripture. I haven't seen any ECF supporting UR with scripture.

 

[Ceallaigh]

yeah, really only DBH and Fr Aiden take this seriously. and by “this” I mean DBH’s nonsense.

There's also the Orthodox theologian Dr. Bradley Jersak, PhD who was mentored by and is close friends with Archbishop Lazar Puhalo.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Various ECF are frequently quoted as supporting Universal Reconciliation [UR]. It does not matter if a ECF promotes UR unless they are quoting scripture. I haven't seen any ECF supporting UR with scripture.

well, I don’t know about that. many have stuff that can sound like UR, but when you look at their entire body of work, it’s clear they reject UR.

 

[ArmyMatt]

There's also the Orthodox theologian Dr. Bradley Jersak, PhD who was mentored by and is close friends with Archbishop Lazar Puhalo.

thanks for the warning.

 

[Phronema]

I may have misinterpreted St. Gregory's writings, and I'll have to take a closer look.

Personally, the issue is there are clearly people out there (DBH, and others) who have not only misinterpreted his writings, but also taken those misinterpretations and ran with them. Those same people are now teaching, and espousing a doctrine which is incorrect when compared to the Holy Scriptures, and the consensus of the Saints through the ages. So, with that said I'll just say it's unfortunate that he wasn't a little clearer; particularly considering he lived at a time when, and where influence by Origen, and/or later Origenists are a potential problem.

All that said I'm not a scholar, and so I've very likely misinterpreted St. Gregory of Nyssa. Especially considering there are so many out there who are more educated than I am on the subject, and haven't mentioned him being in error.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The question is, is that teaching from an ECF or whomever really saying that literally every single last person will enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

no. the closest I have read is simply that it’s possible.

 

[Der Alte]

well, I don’t know about that. many have stuff that can sound like UR, but when you look at their entire body of work, it’s clear they reject UR.

That is very true. But the UR faction frequently quote various ECF as support UR Origen comes to mind.

 

[ArmyMatt]

That is very true. But the UR faction frequently quote various ECF as support UR Origen comes to mind.

Origen isn’t a Church Father. you cannot be a Church Father and a heretic, even if you made many positive contributions to Christianity.

 

[zippy2006]

Sometimes I think anything short of the stereotypical Protestant fire and brimstone teaching, starts looking like UR to some folks...

Yes, I have noticed this as well. Unfortunately those pushing UR encourage a frenzied and impassioned approach to the subject and inhibit people from considering it more calmly and objectively.