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Orthodoxy and Anglicanism Ecumenical Dialogue

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ArmyMatt

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I'm talking about the satisfaction of God's justice; I'm not saying that God himself has need of anything. If God has a perfect standard of justice, then would it not need to be satisfied? If not, then how could we call it justice?

I don't think God has a perfect standard of justice, although He is perfectly just. the reason I say that is because the Cross is the most unjust thing that has ever happened in the history of the world.
 
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Crandaddy

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I don't think God has a perfect standard of justice, although He is perfectly just. the reason I say that is because the Cross is the most unjust thing that has ever happened in the history of the world.

By what standard of justice do you say this, then?
 
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"Alright, but Orthodoxy wouldn't set the standard of orthodoxy by virtue of the meaning of her name alone."

Of course not, because "Orthodoxy" is not our name, "Orthodoxy" is an adjective. We started to use that adjective to distinguish ourselves from heretics who were claiming to be the Church, but were teaching heresy. Therefore, we call our selves "correctly believing/worshipping/glory" Church.

Its by virtue of our Fathers, of the saints and of the martyrs, of the very life of the Church and the transformative power of the very life of the Church, which is the life of Jesus Christ Himself. You cannot separate Christ from the Church.

It is by virtue of the Fathers and the saints and the martyrs that we boldly proclaim on the 2nd Sunday of Lent when we commemorate the decrees of the 7th Eucumenical Council that refuted the heresy of iconoclasim:

"
As the prophets beheld, as the apostles have taught us, as the church has received, as the teachers have dogmatized, as the universe has agreed, as grace has illumined, as truth has revealed, as falshood has been dispelled, as wisdom has presented, as Christ has triumphed; this we believe and declare, this we preach: Christ our true God, and His saints we honor in words, in writings, in thoughts, in sacrifices, in temples, in icons, on the one hand bowind down and worshipping Christ as God and Master, on the other honoring [His saints] as true servants of the master of all, and offering to them due veneration.
This is the faith of the apostles!
This is the faith of the fathers!
This is the faith of the Orthodox!
This is the faith which has established the universe!"

You asked Matt about what idea of justice he is basing the crucifixion on. Well, I believe he is saying its based on fallen human concepts of justice. An innocent man receiving the death penalty? that is unjust. If someone attempted to do that today, a judge will not accept it and throw the case out of court, because it would be an injustice to send an innnocent man to death.

This is why you cannot, cannot, cannot apply fallen human logic, reasoning, and attributes to God.

God is God, He is not human, He is certainly not fallen, He is above and beyond anything our finite minds can conceive.

And He does not need anything!
 
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Cappadocious

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It is not the case that we are so profoundly fallen that our ability to have any (positive) knowledge of God at all is completely destroyed. (1) We can know that God exists. (2) We can know that He alone is supremely, perfectly good. (3) Related to our ability to know that He is the supreme Good is our ability to know that He is the supreme Lawgiver and the supreme Standard of righteousness, (4) Whose natural law we transgress when we commit sin.

So let me get this straight. (5) When I commit sin, I am willfully violating God's perfect standard of righteousness, (6) I am therefore justly deserving of appropriate consequences for my sin, and it is the case that (7) Christ offers me mercy from these consequences by offering Himself as the satisfaction of God's requirement of perfect righteousness that I could never offer by myself? Is this what you're saying?
Crandaddy has basically offered an Orthodox understanding here, if you would all relax.

The only things that an Orthodox would or could object to in your above statement, imo:

*It takes until #7 to get to Christ, whereas we would have Christ be the means by which the Christian could and would extrapolate 1-7, instead of beginning with a blend of truisms comprised of Old Testament statements about God and classical Hellenistic statements about a Divine entity (none of which are then necessarily false).

*We may or may not object to your use of natural law, depending on how it's fleshed out.

*Your #6 seems fine except for "justly deserving", which is a bit confusing. Instead of simply suffering the consequences of sin, now we have this idea that God has to impute some sort of label of "deserving" or not deserving punishment. The "deserving punishment" part seems unnecessary, an add-on which the transcendent God would have no use for, and may simply reflect certain fallen systems of law (though not all). We would certainly agree that God judges us, and that our ultimate state is given from God vis-a-vis who we really are and what we want.

*7 Is an Orthodox statement about the atonement, provided that "righteousness" is communion with God, the proper fulfillment of the telos of man, which is to be high priest of creation, even like the el/theos, offering thanksgiving and glorification to God in a manner re-capitulating the thanksgiving and glorification offered by the entire creation in diverse ways, and fulfilling the economic Laws of God given to Israel when he was called out from among the nations, and all for the fulfillment of the economy of God, which is the salvation of the world.

And that Christ does not save me from the consequences of sin as from an imputed label or accusation of "guilty", in such a manner as if the label were to be removed, the formerly accused themselves would be neither better or worse apart from the formerly impending external punishment.
 
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Cappadocious

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This is why you cannot, cannot, cannot apply fallen human logic, reasoning, and attributes to God.
Ah, but at the same time, you can apply ones we also see in humans. Watch:

God speaks. God breathes. God loves. God hates.

God is God, He is not human

But at the same time, he is not in-human; in fact, he is human:

CJ787.jpg


He is above and beyond anything our finite minds can conceive.

And yet he also chooses to ecstasize himself in such a way as to be conceivable, effable, visible and comprehensible.

If you took apophatic and cataphatic theology seriously, you would not make God appear merely further and further away with each statement. Rather, he would appear more and more holy.
 
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MKJ

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You cant have Christianity with only apophatic theology. There would be nothing to have, you would be stuck with pagan neoplatonism (at best).

While some argue that the East tends to emphasize the negative approach somewhat whereas the West sees negative and positive on more equal grounds, I have never heard anyone say that the East is apophatic to the degree being suggested here.

Keep in mind that taking an approach like that would necessitate iconoclasm.
 
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ArmyMatt

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By what standard of justice do you say this, then?

God, innocent and all good, is spat upon, mocked, and killed by His own creation. He is unjustly put to death for violating the law, by His own people who violated the law to convict Him. and why? to offer eternal life and blessedness for the very people who will always hate and reject Him. so it would seem, that there is no need for justice to be fulfilled, because if that were the case, none of us would be offered salvation.

doesn't sound very just to me.
 
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Crandaddy

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First of all, thank you for clarifying the Orthodox position, Cappadocious. I didn't really think that Orthodoxy as a whole had run headlong into heresy, but when I see some Orthodox (not all) cast aspersions on forensic soteriology or justification as Western error, I do get alarmed. It strikes me as a heretical corruption of the Gospel, or dangerously close to it at least.​
*It takes until #7 to get to Christ, whereas we would have Christ be the means by which the Christian could and would extrapolate 1-7, instead of beginning with a blend of truisms comprised of Old Testament statements about God and classical Hellenistic statements about a Divine entity (none of which are then necessarily false).

I agree that we couldn't have knowledge of 1-7 except through Christ. Christ is the only means through Whom we might have any access to God at all. Even knowledge of God obtained through natural theology is obtained through Christ. For “all things were made by [Christ]; and without him was not any thing made that was made” (John 1:3).

But even though all of our knowledge of God is obtained through Christ, one needn't necessarily be consciously aware of this fact in order to have knowledge of God. It is possible, for example, to know about morality, or to demonstrate the existence of God without explicitly invoking Christ.

*We may or may not object to your use of natural law, depending on how it's fleshed out.
By natural law, I mean the standard of righteousness that is intrinsic to our very ontological composition as personal beings, and that prescribes our behaviors as such. When a personal individual (willfully) commits an act that transgresses this standard, he incurs real ontological damage to his personhood as a direct consequence of his sinful act.

Christ Himself is ultimately the ideal Paradigm by Whom righteousness exists in creation because He is the perfect, uncreated Image of the Father, and the standard of righteousness that He establishes for us is grounded in and derives from the created image of Himself (i.e., the imago Dei) within us, which is what constitutes our very personhood. This is why I say that the standard is intrinsic to our very ontological composition--it derives directly from the imago Dei, which is what makes us personal beings in the first place.

I refer to this standard as the “natural law,” not because God explicitly dictates it to us (as in, e.g., the Decalogue or other OT commandments), but rather because it is grounded in our nature as personal beings, and all morals and man-made laws--to what extent the morals and laws of fallen man have any objective, normative authority at all--derive from our knowledge of this nature.

*Your #6 seems fine except for "justly deserving", which is a bit confusing. Instead of simply suffering the consequences of sin, now we have this idea that God has to impute some sort of label of "deserving" or not deserving punishment. The "deserving punishment" part seems unnecessary, an add-on which the transcendent God would have no use for, and may simply reflect certain fallen systems of law (though not all). We would certainly agree that God judges us, and that our ultimate state is given from God vis-a-vis who we really are and what we want.
The consequences of sin are just and deserved insofar as they're understood by us to be violations of the natural law. From a comprehensive, ontological, God's-eye point of view, however, they're simply what sin naturally entails. God doesn't punish people for their sin so much as sin is simply its own punishment, when all is said and done.

But it is entirely good and fitting that we should call the consequences of sin “just” and “deserved” because this is the correct and healthy way for us to understand them, and if we do not understand them in this way, then our cognitive faculties are not functioning as they should.

*7 Is an Orthodox statement about the atonement, provided that "righteousness" is communion with God, the proper fulfillment of the telos of man, which is to be high priest of creation, even like the el/theos, offering thanksgiving and glorification to God in a manner re-capitulating the thanksgiving and glorification offered by the entire creation in diverse ways, and fulfilling the economic Laws of God given to Israel when he was called out from among the nations, and all for the fulfillment of the economy of God, which is the salvation of the world.
I don't see anything I disagree with here.

And that Christ does not save me from the consequences of sin as from an imputed label or accusation of "guilty", in such a manner as if the label were to be removed, the formerly accused themselves would be neither better or worse apart from the formerly impending external punishment.
No, sin is an ontological disease whose natural end result is eternal death (i.e., hell). Salvation through Christ is the cure for this disease. There are no laws or labels at the ontological level.

Nevertheless, our forensic conceptualizations of sin do have a real, objective basis, and they are indispensable to orthodox soteriology because they are the correct and healthy way for us to understand what happens at the ontological level.

It seems to me that the danger that some Orthodox are wont to flirt with is to keep the sin-as-disease part and get rid of the sin-as-guilt part, as if it were an either/or affair. But it's not an either/or affair. We can (and should) have both, if each is understood properly. We cannot strip soteriology of all forensic content, lest we strip God of his righteousness and corrupt the Gospel.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Justice means setting things right, it can't be reduced to the proper meting out of punishment.

oh I agree, my point is that there is a difference between God having a perfect standard of justice that needs to be met, and Him being just and acting accordingly.
 
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Cappadocious

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Nevertheless, our forensic conceptualizations of sin do have a real, objective basis, and they are indispensable to orthodox soteriology because they are the correct and healthy way for us to understand what happens at the ontological level.

Unfortunately, "forensic" and "juridical" understandings of sin and the atonement, at least on this side of the pond, have been so taken up by, and identified with, the Calvinistic and evangelical teachings on penal substitution, that those words are often used to refer exclusively to that theory of the atonement itself. I think that's where a lot of the confusion arises, especially among converts from those traditions.

I didn't really think that Orthodoxy as a whole had run headlong into heresy, but when I see some Orthodox (not all) cast aspersions on forensic soteriology or justification as Western error, I do get alarmed. It strikes me as a heretical corruption of the Gospel, or dangerously close to it at least.
That is what happens when a lot of people understand a small bit of a Church's high theology that has trickled down to the popular level. Palamas, St. Maximus the Confessor, etc., are not easy men to understand.

My guess is that this will balance out in time.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Unfortunately, "forensic" and "juridical" understandings of sin and the atonement, at least on this side of the pond, have been so taken up by, and identified with, the Calvinistic and evangelical teachings on penal substitution, that those words are often used to refer exclusively to that theory of the atonement itself. I think that's where a lot of the confusion arises, especially among converts from those traditions.


That is what happens when a lot of people understand a small bit of a Church's high theology that has trickled down to the popular level. Palamas, St. Maximus the Confessor, etc., are not easy men to understand.

My guess is that this will balance out in time.

I think Capp is pretty spot on here. it's a kinda guilt by association with Calvinism that ran with the penal stuff (I mean you find that kind of talk in St Paul). so while we don't focus on it, it is a legit way of explaining the Cross when understood in the proper context, much like predestination.
 
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FireDragon76

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You cant have Christianity with only apophatic theology. There would be nothing to have, you would be stuck with pagan neoplatonism (at best).
.

100 percent apophatic theology would be more like Zen Buddhist meditation.

Continuing Anglican self-understanding is romantic and ahistorical, not realistic. This is why in the end I stopped attending Continuing Anglican churches and instead started attending the Episcopal Church, because I found the internal contradictions of the CA movement too much to bear and I figured that Continuing Anglicans were schismatic at heart in a way that Episcopalians and the Anglican Communion did not intend to be. Continuing Anglicans have had decades to reunite with the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics, or even among themselves, but they haven't taken that seriously, so I deemed that spiritually unhealthy to continue to worship in that environment.
 
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MKJ

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100 percent apophatic theology would be more like Zen Buddhist meditation.

Continuing Anglican self-understanding is romantic and ahistorical, not realistic. This is why in the end I stopped attending Continuing Anglican churches and instead started attending the Episcopal Church, because I found the internal contradictions of the CA movement too much to bear and I figured that Continuing Anglicans were schismatic at heart in a way that Episcopalians and the Anglican Communion did not intend to be. Continuing Anglicans have had decades to reunite with the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics, or even among themselves, but they haven't taken that seriously, so I deemed that spiritually unhealthy to continue to worship in that environment.

Well, maybe, but I cant really see the Episcopals as being in any better a state. TBH I do not think the continuers are at heart schismatic - i think they were pushed into schism by Episcopals who were essentially moving in the direction of apostacy.

One might argue that they could not have known that at the time, but most of their fears have come to fruition.

The Epicopals and the AC in general have had even more time to work on reunification, but they seem to be actively running away from it these days.
 
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FireDragon76

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Well, maybe, but I cant really see the Episcopals as being in any better a state. TBH I do not think the continuers are at heart schismatic - i think they were pushed into schism by Episcopals who were essentially moving in the direction of apostacy.

I don't see anything wrong with the 1979 prayer book and the Episcopal Church's polity is the same as the early Church. The Continuing Anglicans concerns were largely picayune, in my mind, especially considering Anglicans owed much of their liturgy to a man who was far more liberal for his era than many of them wanted to admit. Most of the Continuers were hitched to an ecclessiology that would have been foreign to Cranmer. If they wanted to disagree with him, they could do that alot more faithfully by submitting to the Orthodox Church or to Rome. But the CA movement has alot of fragile egos and people that need to think they deserve the title "metropolitan" for having a few thousand congregants.

Yes there is material heresy in the Episcopal Church in some areas but it is not yet formal heresy articulated in canons and liturgy. Being a material heretic is not enough to justify schism.
 
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Crandaddy

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Continuing Anglican self-understanding is romantic and ahistorical, not realistic. This is why in the end I stopped attending Continuing Anglican churches and instead started attending the Episcopal Church, because I found the internal contradictions of the CA movement too much to bear and I figured that Continuing Anglicans were schismatic at heart in a way that Episcopalians and the Anglican Communion did not intend to be. Continuing Anglicans have had decades to reunite with the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics, or even among themselves, but they haven't taken that seriously, so I deemed that spiritually unhealthy to continue to worship in that environment.

Reunification doesn't just happen overnight, you know. Already the UECNA, ACC, and APCK have intercommunion agreements with each other, and the unification of our churches has been seriously discussed, and is a very real possibility in the not-too-distant future.

I don't see anything wrong with the 1979 prayer book and the Episcopal Church's polity is the same as the early Church.

Here's a list of 20 differences between the 1928 and 1979 prayer books, as compiled by the late Peter Toon+.

The Continuing Anglicans concerns were largely picayune, in my mind, especially considering Anglicans owed much of their liturgy to a man who was far more liberal for his era than many of them wanted to admit. Most of the Continuers were hitched to an ecclessiology that would have been foreign to Cranmer. If they wanted to disagree with him, they could do that alot more faithfully by submitting to the Orthodox Church or to Rome. But the CA movement has alot of fragile egos and people that need to think they deserve the title "metropolitan" for having a few thousand congregants.

Yes there is material heresy in the Episcopal Church in some areas but it is not yet formal heresy articulated in canons and liturgy. Being a material heretic is not enough to justify schism.
And here's a brief bit of history on the circumstances in the Episcopal Church that led to the Affirmation of St. Louis and the ensuing Continuing Anglican movement.

Excerpt:

“[T]he Affirmation was written because the "ordination" of women had produced an emergency by nullifying Holy Orders (and therefore nullifying the sacraments of Holy Communion, Absolution and Confirmation).”
 
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FireDragon76

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Reunification doesn't just happen overnight, you know. Already the UECNA, ACC, and APCK have intercommunion agreements with each other, and the unification of our churches has been seriously discussed, and is a very real possibility in the not-too-distant future.

Why not seek communion with Orthodoxy, though?

Here's a list of 20 differences between the 1928 and 1979 prayer books, as compiled by the late Peter Toon+.

The 1979 prayer book has it's flaws (too many options), but the form expressed is closer to ancient Christian liturgies. The understanding of Confirmation enshrined in the 1928 and earlier Prayer Books, as a sacrament seperated from Baptism and used for adult confirmation is not in keeping with ancient Christian practice of chrismating the newly baptized.

Working for peace and justice in the world is not un-Christian, nor is that the only thing in the Baptismal Covenant. Rev. Toon seemed more interested in an individualistic religion, that's fine but it's not necessarily more Christian than one focused on collective responsibilities- as Eastern Orthodox theology is full of a corporate and cosmic understanding of salvation.
 
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MKJ

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I don't see anything wrong with the 1979 prayer book and the Episcopal Church's polity is the same as the early Church. The Continuing Anglicans concerns were largely picayune, in my mind, especially considering Anglicans owed much of their liturgy to a man who was far more liberal for his era than many of them wanted to admit. Most of the Continuers were hitched to an ecclessiology that would have been foreign to Cranmer. If they wanted to disagree with him, they could do that alot more faithfully by submitting to the Orthodox Church or to Rome. But the CA movement has alot of fragile egos and people that need to think they deserve the title "metropolitan" for having a few thousand congregants.

Yes there is material heresy in the Episcopal Church in some areas but it is not yet formal heresy articulated in canons and liturgy. Being a material heretic is not enough to justify schism.

For many people, there is no Episcopal Church available to them where they can worship without participating in something they consider heretical. And some areas is a bit misleading - it can be more difficult than not to find an acceptable parish in many places. I would also suggest that heretical bishops with no effort to remove them, and widespread heretical teaching in seminaries, counts as a formal heresy. We are not a church composed on canons and declarations - the bishop is a much more important indicator than those things. Systematic and widespread issues in the episcopate is a serious issue.

I do not think it is chance that the change from a traditional to a modernist approach to liturgy corresponds pretty closely to the beginning of what may very well be the dissolution of the AC.

The whole project of liturgical change was based on premises about tradition, liturgy and scripture that were new. THat is the fundamental problem with the 20th century liturgical movement and why it has been hand in hand with a major philosophical and theological split among Anglicans.
 
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