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Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Luke50, Jun 21, 2017.

  1. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    "Once saved always saved"?

    Might as well tear this out of your Bibles.

    John and Matthew
    And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    Everyone dunked (by a Priest) in water is baptized?
    If one goes down into the water and comes up without having received anything, and says "I am a Christian," he has borrowed the name at interest. But if he receives the Holy Spirit, he has the name as a gift. He who has received a gift does not have to give it back, but of him who has borrowed it at interest, payment is demanded. This is the way it happens to one when he experiences a mystery.-Philip

    Water has no holy power. The baptism is a decision to acknowledge your spirit from God and seek his will. The ritual is physical. Explains how the thief with Jesus could be in paradise without the ritual. A spiritual act, not a physical one.
     
  2. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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    Its not just the water though! Its the 'ceremony' that goes with it. The 'words' etc.

    Jesus can save anybody at any time. The thief spoke the truth, from his heart.
     
  3. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    Jesus the Divine Messiah did not send a "denomination" into the "world" (kozmos) to spread the Gospel and absolute spiritual TRUTHS. He chose originally ~12-13 MEN to be MESSENGERS (apostles/disciples/followers/pupils) authenticated by miracles,signs, and wonders. These MEN were spirit-led and superintended by God the Holy Spirit to "write" the NT Scriptures..."the word of God...THE closing chapters of the miraculous Bible..."SCRIPTURA SUPREMA". And this "word of God" guided and built His "CHURCH", the spiritual "Body of Believers" spiritually "baptized" into the "Body of Christ".

    SEEKERS and FINDERS of GOD.

    John 8 (ALL NASB)...The Truth Will Make You Free
    31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had BELIEVED Him,(SAVED!)
    "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples (followers/PUPILS!) of Mine;
    32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."...
    36 So if (God) the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

    Deuteronomy 4:29
    But from there you will seek the Lord your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.

    1 Chronicles 28:9 ...King David to his wise son
    "As for you, my son Solomon,
    know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind;
    for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts.
    If you seek Him, He will let you find Him;
    BUT if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

    2 Chronicles 15:2
    and he went out to meet Asa and said to him, "Listen to me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin:
    the Lord is with you when you are with Him.
    And if you seek Him, He will let you find Him;
    but if you forsake Him, He will forsake you.

    Jeremiah 29:13
    You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.

    Proverbs 8:17
    "I love those who love me; And those who diligently seek me will find me.

    Matthew 7:7-8 [Prayer and the Golden ule] ...Jesus: Sermon on the Mount
    "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
    For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

    Luke 11:9-10
    "So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.
     
  4. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    RESPONSE to Post#41: : "..endure unto the end.."

    A1: "standing firm in the "faith" is a false addition to John 3 explained in Ephesians 2 SALVATION.
     
  5. Luke50

    Luke50 New Member

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    "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Hebrews 10:26.

    "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" James 2:20

    “And, behold, one came and said unto him, ‘Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?’ And he said unto him, ‘Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.’ He saith unto him, ‘Which?’ Jesus said, ‘Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.’ The young man saith unto him, ‘All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?’ Jesus said unto him, ‘If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.’ But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, ‘Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.’ When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, ‘Who then can be saved?’ But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, ‘With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.’ Then answered Peter and said unto him, ‘Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?’ And Jesus said unto them, ‘Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.’” [St. Matthew 19:16-30]

    The words of Our Lord clearly reveal that actions are integral to the inheritance of eternal life. The rich young ruler asked Christ a specific and direct question: “What thing must I do to inherit eternal life?” Therefore, if “faith alone” were all that was necessary for salvation, then Christ would certainly have responded, “You need only believe in Me.” But we see that in order for faith to be real, it must be accompanied by works.

    And the point is made even clearer with St. Peter’s question, emphasizing the righteous acts of the disciples: “Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?” Our Lord answered:

    “Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.”

    Thus, there can be no question about the integration of faith and works. We are not saved by “faith alone.” We are not saved by making a momentary “decision for Christ.” We are not saved by responding to an “altar call” or by “accepting Jesus Christ as our personal Savior.” Mere belief is not sufficient; for as St. James says, “You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe – and tremble!” [St. James 2:19] And as St. Maximus the Confessor said, “Belief without action is the theology of demons.”
     
  6. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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    Thing is, those 12 'men' did not all write the 'books' in the bible. Some were written by others.

    Also, the Holy Spirit did not 'end' at the last page in the bible!

    God lived / lives on, in His people, His church.
     
  7. Gabriel Anton

    Gabriel Anton Exitus Acta Probat Acta Non Verba Deus Vult 11:18

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    Peace be with you.

    I support and concur with everything you say.

    I even understand why you started this thread.

    Protestants that talk disrespectfully about Mary, The Mother of God should go to:

    1. The Orthodox Church (because this is your thread)

    or

    2. The Catholic Church

    For Rehabilitation to get their sickness cured.

    God bless you.
     
  8. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    RESPONSE to POST #49

    SNIPPET #1 .

    ""For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Hebrews 10:26." (which version of the Bible?)

    Hebrews 10 (NASB)...Christ for believers or Judgment of UN-believers
    26 For if we (BELIEVERS) go on sinning willfully after receiving the "knowledge of the truth",
    there no longer remains a "sacrifice for sins",
    27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.
    28 Anyone who has "set aside the Law of Moses" dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
    29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve
    (EXAMPLES of Mosaic Law violators)
    a. who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and
    b. has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and
    c has insulted the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” (UN-believers)
    And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”
    31 (FOR UNBELIEVERS ONLY)
    It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    SALVATION IS NOT:
    "knowledge of the truth"
    "set aside the Law of Moses"

    BELIEVERS sin after salvation. Their sins are FORGIVEN upon CONFESSION (agreeing with God) 1 John 1
    No new "sacrifice for sins" is required!


    ATONEMENT ~= RECONCILIATION (all NASB)

    Romans 5:10
    For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God THROUGH the death of His Son,
    much more, having been reconciled, we shall (certain to) be saved (SANCTIFIED) by His life.

    2 Corinthians 5:18
    Now all these things are from God,
    who reconciled us to Himself THROUGH Christ and
    gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

    Colossians 1:22
    yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—

    SUBSTITUTION ~ Jesus died FOR you..in your place

    1 Peter 2:24
    and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross,
    so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness;
    for by His wounds you were healed.

    1 Peter 2
    18 For Christ also died FOR sins once FOR all,
    the just (Jesus) FOR the unjust (Man),
    so that He might bring us to God, (RECONCILIATION)
    having been put to death in the flesh, (CRUCIFIXION)
    but made alive in the spirit; (RESURRECTION + APPEARANCES + ASCENSION)

    Romans 5:6,8
    For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died FOR the ungodly....
    But God demonstrates His own love toward us,
    in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died FOR us.

    1 Corinthians 15:3
    For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died FOR our sins according to the Scriptures,

    2 Corinthians 5:21...IMPUTED RIGHTEOUNESS
    He made Him who knew no sin to be sin ON OUR BEHALF, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

    Colossians 2:14
    having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us;
    and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.


    COMPARE : Hebrews 10 with Hebrews 6!
    ..."enlightened" does not mean "saved".
    ...."repentance" does not mean "saved".

    Hebrews 6:1-8 (NASB)...The Peril of "Falling Away" (apostasy)...no true acceptance of God
    Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to MATURITY, (sanctification)
    not laying again a foundation:
    A. of repentance FROM "dead works" and
    B. of (dead) faith toward God,
    C. of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, (Law)
    D. and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.(Tradition)
    And this we will do, if God permits.
    For in the case of those who have once been "enlightened" and have tasted of the heavenly gift (calling)
    and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,(drawing)
    and have tasted the good "word of God" (Scripture) and the powers of the age to come,
    and then have "fallen away", (apostasy)
    it is impossible to renew them again to "repentance",
    since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.(no atonement)
    For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
    but if it yields thorns and thistles, (unsaved) it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it (fruit) ends up being burned.

    Luke 8: 11 “Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
    13 Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they "believe" for a while, and in time of temptation, "fall away".(apostasy)

    SNIPPET #2

    "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" James 2:20 (which version of the Bible?)

    James 2:22(NASB)...FAITH + WORKS: HAND-IN-HAND
    22 You see that "faith" was working with his (Abraham's) "works",
    and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;(matured)

    Extract #3

    When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying,
    ‘Who then can be saved?’
    But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them,
    ‘With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.’

    Matthew 19:26 (NASB)...Jesus: FINAL moral of the story of the rich young ruler
    And looking at them Jesus said to them,
    “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

    FALSE CONCLUSION #4
    "actions are integral to the inheritance of eternal (SPIRITUAL) life"

    Contrary to the precepts/"words" of Jesus the Divine Messiah!!

    There are ~200 places in the Bible that state/imply that GRACE through FAITH/BELIEFin Jesus the God-Man AND His perfect and completed work on the Cross is ALL that is required for salvation FROM spiritual eternal DEATH/SEPARATION INTO spiritual ETERNAL LIFE in "heaven".

    John 3 explained in Ephesians 2 = SALVATION: a spiritual change

    John 17 (NASB...JESUS:The High Priestly Prayer...BELIEF in the TRI-UNE God ONLY!
    1 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said,
    “Father, the hour has come;
    glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2
    even as You (Father) gave Him (Jesus) authority over all flesh, that to all (believers) whom You (Father) have given Him (Jesus),
    He (Jesus) MAY GIVE ETERNAL LIFE.
    3 This IS ETERNAL LIFE that they may KNOW (believe in) You, the only true God, and (believe in) Jesus (the) Christ whom You (Father) have sent.
    20 “I do (Jesus) not ask on behalf of these (disciples present) alone, but for those also who BELIEVE in Me through their word (teaching gospel);
    21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may BELIEVE that You sent Me.

    1 John 5 (NASB)...John: This Is Written That You May Know that Jesus is ETERNAL LIFE
    20 And we know that the Son of God has come,
    and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are IN Him who is true,
    in His Son Jesus (the) Christ.
    This is the TRUE GOD and ETERNAL LIFE.

    2 Timothy 3 (NASB)...salvation though FAITH
    15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings (Scriptures) which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to
    SALVATION THROUGH FAITH which is in Christ Jesus.
    16 All Scripture is inspired (BREATHED UPON) by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
    17 so that the man of God (BELIEVER) may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
     
  9. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    Question: who is "St. Peter"??
     
  10. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    Jesus was responding to two things from the rich man. He said if he wanted "life" (eternal?) to keep the commandments. If he wanted "perfect" (life) to give his material possessions to the poor and follow him. The rich man violated Jesus second commandment, for he loved his possessions more than his neighbor.

    Jesus chose the twelve to teach the Jews. Matthew is the strongest Gospel for the Jews. They followed truth as coming from someone in their linage, and Matthew provided it. If linage was so important, why didn't John and Mark provide it?

    Matthew (or Jesus) wouldn't just come out and say the Torah was wrong, and it wasn't. But Jesus was trying to make the Jews see that what mattered was the spirit, the love in HIS commandments was spirit.

    Mark:
    31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
    32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
    33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
    34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.
    35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David?
    36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
    37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.
    38 And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces,
    39 And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts:
    40 Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

    Jesus gave two commandments to follow. These cover the Ten spiritually.

    Matthew:
    39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
    41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,

    So there are two commandments, by Jesus own words. And Paul agrees:

    Romans:
    8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
    9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

    Even Paul doesn't acknowledge days or parents.

    The old Law was physical. The new....spiritual.
     
  11. Luke50

    Luke50 New Member

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    You're anti-christ, stop teaching that
     
  12. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    I believe that you are violating form rules with that statement.

    You are surely spiritually ignorant with that remark because I gave you Christs words (unabridged), so direct your anger at the source (Jesus and Paul).

    Seek anti-christ meaning out before you toss it around.

    1 John:
    And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    If you are a representative of your OP, I think I'll pass. They sound misled.

    Remember, you are in the "controversial" area of the forum. So expect controversy to the ideas the forum as a whole stands for (Nicene Creed).
     
  13. David Cabrera

    David Cabrera Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately Protestantism created relativism in Christianity.
     
  14. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    And there is also still time for Orthodox to Join the one and only True Catholic Faith. :)
     
  15. David Cabrera

    David Cabrera Well-Known Member

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    Orthodoxy is the Catholic faith.
     
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