Orthodox Zion: At what points can Zionim be either appropriate or inappropriate?

[Gxg (G²)]

Shalom..

Concerning why I was writing this, there was another discussion that occurred recently on the subject of Zionism--and the many ways it has been damaging to the world. As it was suggested to start a thread here on that subject rather than continuing, I decided to do just that and was hoping to have discussion on the ways that Orthodoxy and Zionism intersect one another---and with versions of Zionism are either Biblical or Un-Biblical.

Being apart of Zion has always been a very BIG theme in the world of Christendom--and it is rather amazing to see how much this has caused a world of trouble with many all over the world when not understanding what it means to be apart of it....something I do desire myself, although my desire is for the Zion that is in Christ (John 12:14-16 /John 12 / 1 Peter 2:5-7/ 1 Peter 2, Hebrews 12:21-23/ Hebrews 12 , etc )--and that Zion is the one I wish to be among, just as the old Regaee song said best

John Brown's Body - Among Them​

As I shared in the older thread, there are alot of differing forms of Zionism that can occur and not all on the same level. There's the form of Zionism where others are simply glad for a homeland, Zionism where others are so zealous that ANY action by the homeland is defended as "just" (regardless of the reason why)..and then there's the Zionism that says the situations you have aren't great--but for the sake of peace between those in a nation (be it Jew, Palestinian, Palestinian Jew, Arab, Ethopian, etc), promoting the welfare of the nation is a must...similar to how it was with blacks coming over forcibly/being made into a part of the nation's fabric and not simply choosing to join on with others who said "Back to Africa, the Motherland!!" --for their mindset was that they were apart of the nation/helped establish it....and regardless of the errors occurring in its founding (i.e. slavery, kidnapping, genocide, terrorism, brutality, etc), they had a right to be in the U.S and make it work for them.

I'm adamately against Zionism in the form of racial tones which tries to make actions of the flesh as if it's "God'S Design" and only those for the Lord would choose to support while all others critiquing are against the Lord. Praying for the peace of Jerusalem is something I don't have an issue with like Psalm 122 says--but the true Israel/believers are those who are apart of the Remnant....and not all Israelis nor the Israeli State represent that.

Psalm 122

A song of ascents. Of David.
1 I rejoiced with those who said to me,
“Let us go to the house of the LORD.”
2 Our feet are standing
in your gates, Jerusalem.
3 Jerusalem is built like a city
that is closely compacted together.
4 That is where the tribes go up—
the tribes of the LORD—
to praise the name of the LORD
according to the statute given to Israel.
5 There stand the thrones for judgment,
the thrones of the house of David. 6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem:

“May those who love you be secure.
7 May there be peace within your walls
and security within your citadels.”
8 For the sake of my family and friends,
I will say, “Peace be within you.”
​

9 For the sake of the house of the LORD our God,
I will seek your prosperity.

​

For the sake of those believers (including Messianic Jews and Christians) who are persecuted, I'll support them in certain ways....but never can I go for justifying every action of an entire nation even when it's wrong since that wasn't even the case scripturally.


There were some excellent threads on the issue, entitled Jews, Arab Christians or Muslim Arabs? . ...and others such as "Standing with Israel" /Obama calls for a return to pre-1967 Israel, which specifically deal with the dynamic of Zionism and mindsets that say its permissible for the Jewish people to be violent in the pursuit of controlling the Promise Land and how many (be it Jewish Christians, Gentile believers or Non-Christian Jews and others) have debated whether there's even a right to figthing based on the Torah.


The Coptic Church has often spoken on the subject of Zionism ( seen here )--and there actually many who make trips to Israel and have noted how hard of a battle it is for those who are Egyptian Jews....many of whom were forced out of Egypt/fled to Israel and were saddened to leave their homes behind...but had to make the most of it. And as said elsewhere, although there has been much tension in recent years in the Middle East when it comes to relations between the Coptic Church and the State of Israel, it is thankfully not the case that those tensions have not adversely affected Jewish-Coptic relations in Egypt....and for those who may be Coptic Jews/Biracial, its a big deal. Moreover, even within Coptic Orthodoxy, not all within are supportative (from what I've seen) of the comments coming from certain leaders that seem to be anti-semitic. Ministries speaking on such are groups such as "Voice of the Copts | Standing Up Against Religious Bigotry and Intolerance....
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Also, for anyone interested, Elias Chacourof the book entitled "Blood Brothers" is one of the best people to investigate on the matter...

Elias Chacour on Relationships in the Middle East ​

My Early Years in Occupied Palestine: Archbishop ...​

Building Schools and Middle East Politics. Archbishop Elias Chacour. Part 2 of 2 ​

Chacour is an Archbishop of Akko, Haifa, Nazareth and All Galilee of the Melkite Greek Catholic Church. And as a priest in the Melkite. Catholic Church, which dates back to the Byzantine period of Constantine, Chacour has had much to say on how Zionism played a very deadly role in the establisment of Israel and the creation of what we see today in the Middle East crisis.

And thankfully, despite the drama that has occurred due to the negative beginnings of Zionism, others are truly seeking the Lord to have peace in line with the Spirit of Christ. In example:

Israelis and Palestinians Make Peace on Vimeo​

One can go here to see the video...and one can also go here for more for more information on the organization, known as Maoz Israel..

What Is Maoz Israel? on Vimeo​

Maoz Israel: Passover 2011 Video​

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If anyone has any thoughts, I'd love to hear sometime...

 

[OuterWater]

As far as I can tell, Zionism and Orthodoxy are for all intents and purposes, incompatible. Additionally, I have yet to meet an Orthodox Christian who shared the common Protestant belief that the state of Israel is the reemergence of the Israel of the Old Testament.

How anyone can read the New Testament, particularly the verses about the gentiles being grafted onto the vine, and hold these beliefs is beyond me.

 

[Dorothea]

As far as I can tell, Zionism and Orthodoxy are for all intents and purposes, incompatible. Additionally, I have yet to meet an Orthodox Christian who shared the common Protestant belief that the state of Israel is the reemergence of the Israel of the Old Testament.

How anyone can read the New Testament, particularly the verses about the gentiles being grafted onto the vine, and hold these beliefs is beyond me.

I agree. And even the true Jews in Israel are against the Zionist government:

The Jewish people, from its inception, has been unique by its identity as a religious entity. Through the centuries its religious character had been a premise agreed upon by Jews and non-Jews alike. Our faith demands as the fundamental condition for recognition as a Jew, belief and adherence to the word of G-d, as was revealed to our forefathers on Mount Sinai. This is in itself, according to the tenets of the Jewish religion, sufficient to fulfill the definition of a Jew. Our religious and traditional history bears no aspect of racism. Hence, one of non-Jewish origin is capable of being proselytized and attaining the same status as a born Jew. Conversely, one of Jewish birth who does not recognize his being bound to the Jewish Torah, is by Jewish law a heretic, and therefore forfeits his spiritual birthrights as a Jew.

The purpose of the Jew is to bear witness to the existence of G-d, through his adherence to the Torah. The Al-mighty granted the Jews the land of Israel as the particular setting which would serve as the most conducive atmosphere to their performance of their duties to G-d.

The Jews in ancient times were banished from the land of Israel because they had failed to fulfill their obligations to the Al-mighty. Every Jew acknowledges this in his prayers (Umipnei Chatoeinu Golinu Meiartzeinu). They accepted the penalty of exile and were at that time expressed sworn by the Al-mighty not to accelerate their redemption on their own, and especially not to rebel against the nations under whose rule they were found. To the contrary, every Jew is commanded to pray for the peace and well being of the government of which he is the subject.

Through all the years of exile, pious Jews as individuals were attracted to reside in the Holy Land because of its innate holy character and the opportunity it offered for the observance of various precepts bound in the land. Jews as a whole continue to pray that the Al-mighty return his Divine presence to the Land of Israel, by the coming of the Messiah, who will build His Temple, from whence will emanate Divine Wisdom and ultimate spiritual fulfillment of the entire human race.

Through the many years that Jews resided in the Holy Land for this purpose, they enjoyed tranquil and cordial relations with the non-Jewish population there.

The Zionist movement which was formed at the latter part of the last century, sought to endow the Jews with a nationalistic character which was heretofore strange to them. It sought to deprive them of their historically religious character and offered in substitution of faith in G-d and adherence to the Torah, and belief in their ultimate redemption by the coming of the Messiah, a nationalistic ideology and the possibility of establishing through political media, a Jewish national homeland.

During the period of the British Mandate, the Balfour Declaration, which recognized the eventual possibility of founding a Jewish national homeland, in Palestine, was affirmed to be the British government. The Jewish Agency, who then was the Chief representative of Zionist interests in the Holy Land, was entrusted with the issuance of visas to the Holy Land, thus resulting in an increased Zionist immigration from various parts of the world, which ultimately succeeded in superceding in numbers, the veteran Orthodox dwellers.

Orthodox Jewry all over the world and the Orthodox Community in the Holy Land in particular, immediately sensed in this stage of Zionist success, the threat of grave danger for the religious future of Jews. The Arab inhabitants began to exhibit open hostility to their Jewish neighbors. The British government failed to distinguish between the Orthodox community, who for generations in habited the Holy Land, and the newly arrived Zionist immigrants.

With the acquisition by the Zionist nationalists of the power to organize communities in Palestine, they formed the Vaad Haleumi Leknesset Yisroel (National Jewish Council Committee). This committee ignored the rights of the Orthodox veteran dwellers who did not recognize this validity of Jewish nationality, and whose identification as Jews was solely with their loyalty to their religious heritage. The religious inhabitants, on the other hand, shuddered at the prospects of spiritual disintegration of World Jewry, with the new rise to power of the Zionist nationalists.

The Orthodox inhabitants actively objected to being subject to the authority of the secularists. They appealed their cause to the League of Nations, who consequently granted them a "Right of exclusion" to the subjugation to the Vaad Haleumi, which rights provided that any Jew wishing not to be incorporated into the Vaad Haleumi, may remain lawfully independent if he so stated his wish in writing. Thousands of Jews did so.

Such was the case until November 1948, when the United Nations finally sanctioned the establishment of a Zionist State. We do not doubt that their success in finally realizing their goal was due in great measure to their having misled the world into viewing the Zionist cause as the Jewish cause. The formation of the Zionist state resulted in the automatic deprivation of the autonomy heretofore possessed by the Orthodox inhabitants of the Holy Land.

The Zionists grasped in the acquisition of their new powers, the opportunity to openly disassociate themselves from any identification with Jews as a religion. They systematically began to orient the minds of their generations according to the tenets of Zionist nationalism. Through the Ministry of Religions they employed part of the Rabbinate to assist them in their aims.

The religious Jews who by virtue of their faith, clearly contradicted Zionist nationalism, and who had lived peacefully with their Arab neighbors for generations, became unwillingly identified with the Zionist cause and their struggle with the Arabs. They requested the United Nations that Jerusalem be designated as a defacto international city. They appealed to the diplocatic corps assigned to Jerusalem -- but to no avail. They were hence confronted with the choice of either becoming a part of the Zionist State, which diametrically opposed the interests of Jews as a religion, or abandoning the land of which their forefathers were the first Jewish settlers.

We find it of supreme importance to emphasize that we are fearful of the consequences of the Zionist rebellion against the Creator, as stated expressly in Jeremich, "For it is bad and bitter your renunciation of G-d..." We wish not to be affected by the behavior of this government who in the name of Israel, persist in their renunciation and utter disregard of religious Judaism such as is clearly attested by their laws expressly permitting wanton autopsies (Law of Anatomy and Pathology, 1953), forcible desecration of the Sabbath (Law of Emergency Labor Draft 1967: PPS 1, 19; 27, 36), profanation of Holy Sites by retaining non-religious custodians, desecration of Holy Cemeteries by Safed, Beth Shearim and elsewhere, and countless more examples, proof of which is readily available.

Insofar as all human being find necessary the protection of their rights as human beings, we hereby request all those that find it within their power, to aid us in reacquiring the rights we possessed prior to the formation of the Zionist State*, to remain lawfully independent of the Zionist authority.

The History of Zionism

(Bold and italics are from the article, not my emphasis)

 

[Gxg (G²)]

As far as I can tell, Zionism and Orthodoxy are for all intents and purposes, incompatible. Additionally, I have yet to meet an Orthodox Christian who shared the common Protestant belief that the state of Israel is the reemergence of the Israel of the Old Testament.

How anyone can read the New Testament, particularly the verses about the gentiles being grafted onto the vine, and hold these beliefs is beyond me.

There are ALOT of Protestants who don't hold the viewpoint that the Israeli State is the Israel of the Old Testament--and many times, those within the Protestant Movement (or others outside of it) who are very vocal on seeing it as OT Israel are often the ones taking precedence. For those who are Ethopian Orthodox, the issue of the Israeli State is always interesting considering how many Ethopian Jews live there/try to make a life for themselves....and who felt they had more opportunities there than back home in Ethopia. For them, Zionism is simply choosing to try to make the best out of the state made---despite its dubios orgins/evil---so that lives are not lost on either side.....the attempt at being a peacemaker where you do what you are able to do to have peace.


Even for those against the nationalist Zionism that automatically is set against Palestinians or others non-Israeli, there are Zionists who are not for that and have noted that trying to never support a nation at any point is just as destructive...

 

[MariaRegina]

The Left Behind Series has really muddied the waters.

The authors of that series believe that we Christians should be supporting Israel and hence, Zionism.

I have heard of many Christians who want to help rebuild the Temple at Jerusalem to hasten the coming of Christ.

Sheesh, as if our actions could change the mind of God? Wow. Ridiculous.

 

[127.0.0.1]

Additionally, I have yet to meet an Orthodox Christian who shared the common Protestant belief that the state of Israel is the reemergence of the Israel of the Old Testament.

Come to our Parish, and you'll find a few.

But I'm not one of them. I could never support a state that says, "We're democratic" and then turns around and says, "But only for Jews." Or that points tank cannons at little kids walking home from school...daring them to step out into the street and break curfew so they can blow 'em up.

 

[OuterWater]

I have heard of many Christians who want to help rebuild the Temple at Jerusalem to hasten the coming of Christ.

I have heard this many times as well, usually from the fringe Baptist sort.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The Left Behind Series has really muddied the waters.

The authors of that series believe that we Christians should be supporting Israel and hence, Zionism.

I have heard of many Christians who want to help rebuild the Temple at Jerusalem to hasten the coming of Christ.

Sheesh, as if our actions could change the mind of God? Wow. Ridiculous.

I agree with you that many have indeed taken on a "Left Behind" mindset that has completely messed up ALOT of things when it comes to what others choose to do with equating the actions of the Israeli state with that of the ISrael in the Bible that the Lord promised to defend.....and in saying that, often it seems people attribute ALOT of world disasters/events with not supporting "Israel"--even though people have often noted the Lord himself would punish and severely bring diaster when the people themselves rejected the Lord.

But with Zionism, again, there are many differing forms of it---and it seems many speak of Zionism in the sense that one would wrongly say all Gerams are evil Nazis because the Nazis were Germans. not all things labeled "Israel" are what many Israeli's have been wanting others to cheer for


In example, some who are in Orthodox Judaism, have been more vocal in supporting the right of return for Palestinian Refugees and active protest against the "State of Israel" ..with other groups seeing them for self-imposed isolation (which is particularly the case with ultra-orthodox Jews). They also feel that trying to defend the modern "STATE of Israel" is against what the Lord desires since in their minds the modern state was set up by man rather than the Lord, who said that He would establish his people when they returned to Him in worship. They feel that the Jewish people were meant to remain in exile---and therefore, trying to force a homeland is destined to bring God's judgement (in their view) just as trying to have a nation without God led to their being exiled many times before----be it with the Babylonian exile or the exile after the Second Temple and 70 A.D. The group I'm discussing is known as Neturei Karta . Guided by the rabbis of our time and under the inspiring leadership of the late Reb Amram Blau, the Neturei Karta refuse to recognize the right of anyone to establish a "Jewish" state during the present period of exile...and they vehemently condemn Zionism.

For others groups, they advocate that the State of Israel needs to survive--with it being seen as no different than how the U.S. got off to a bumby start with Blacks/Slaves and Native Americans and yet other oppressed peoples felt that there was no need for them to leave the country. For they had been used to found it and they were going to therefore deal with things where they were at, fighting to have justice/equality after the fact. For many, dismantiling Israel would mean that many others would suffer greatly--and therefore, things should be done to stabilize the situation for all. Those groups specifically believe that Israel needs to be expanded/remodled in order for the Palestinians and Jews to live together. Rabbi Michael Lerner has been of this mindset for some time, as well as the organization of "Tikkun".

For more, one can look up the following:

• Welcome to Jews for a Just Peace
• True Torah Jews Against Zionism
• Jews of Color & Arab Descent - International Jewish Anti-Zionist ...
• The Campaign for Al-Arakib and Justice for Bedouins in Israe << Tikkun Daily
• What an Israel/Palestine Peace Treaty Could Look Like Now << Tikkun Daily
• Rabbi Lerner’s Response to President Obama’s Middle East Address << Tikkun Daily
• "Redress Information & Analysis: The return of Palestinian refugees is an existential necessity for Israeli Jews"

There are dozens of other groups out there on the issue from true JEWISH believers that understand the realtiy of the "political" Israel not being true Israel. ..and they've sought to make that very clear on a host of issues. And for ones to look up:

• Jews Not Zionists
  • Torah-true Jews against Zionism. In their words, "Any form of Zionism is heresy from the Torah viewpoint and the so-called 'State of Israel' is illegitimate. Menu includes links and quotes to Anti-Zionist Jewish organizations and statements, and the wisdom of Judaism on the Middle East Quandary.."

• The Israeli Refuser Movement /Refusing For Israel
  • The movement for soldiers of the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) refusing to serve in the Occupied Territories

 

[Dorothea]

Come to our Parish, and you'll find a few.

But I'm not one of them. I could never support a state that says, "We're democratic" and then turns around and says, "But only for Jews." Or that points tank cannons at little kids walking home from school...daring them to step out into the street and break curfew so they can blow 'em up.

I think it's due to ignorance of the real story behind Zionism. I know it was ignorance for me just 4 years ago when I was a BIG backer of Israel and the Zionist government...then God woke me up over many months on many issues, not just that...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I think it's due to ignorance of the real story behind Zionism. I know it was ignorance for me just 4 years ago when I was a BIG backer of Israel and the Zionist government...then God woke me up over many months on many issues, not just that...

Reconsidering alot of things with Zionism is difficult at first, but it truly does give alot of freedom.


But with reconsidering Zionism comes the reality that others often are not aware of how even Jews within the nation are not treated with First Class status. It is interesting to consider that very point, as it concerns the subject of how many Messianic Jews who've been perseucted in great numbers by those in Israel have noted that its not as if Israel should be supported in all things. I don't think its something that should ever be supported AT ALL since the Lord didn't support it in the days when Israel was a nation in the OT. He actually kicked his people out for that and warned against having any kind of false security on the matter.


For a good article on the issue, one can go here:

• 
  Hate-fest against Messianic Jews in Ashdod « The Rosh Pina Project

On the ministry itself that the article is based upon, the Rosh Pina Project is an online meeting place for Messianic Jews and all those who believe that Messianic Jews deserve fair treatment in Israel and the Diaspora, and protection as a religious minority in Israel. The Rosh Pina Project is focused upon highlighting the persecution of Messianic Jews in Israel, unfair treatment of Messianic Jews in the mainstream media, post cultural and political reviews. It has been very interesting to examine in action.


On CARM, here's something that one of my brothers in the Lord noted elsewhere when it came to debating the issue among other Messianic Jews:

In Romans 11:7, we read, "What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened" (ESV). From the way the words Israel and elect are used, we see the importance of context. Taken out of context, this verse could mean that all Israel is non-elect. We know better, though, because Paul identified himself as "an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin" (11:1). He then added, "God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew" (11:2)--an allusion to Romans 8:29. All this jibes with Romans 9:6-12, where Paul showed that "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring. ... This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring" (9:7-8).

In Romans 11:11, Paul states: "So I ask, did they [hardened Israel] stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous" (ESV). Here I think Paul is showing that Israel's fall opened the door for the gospel to spread to the Gentiles more freely. Worldwide evangelism, not Israel's fall itself, was the purpose to Israel's fall. Paul adds, however, that Israel's full inclusion (verse 12) would bring much greater riches to the Gentiles. To me, such a statement means that God would use believing Israel so much that even more Gentiles would be reached and blessed. We're seeing some of this blessing now, I think, in the ministries of Jewish believers such as Dr. Michael Brown, Dr. David Stern, Jonathan Bernis, and Joel Chernoff, to name a few. The more Jewish believers there are, the greater this blessing will be.

As to Romans 11:28-31, we see that God intends for Gentile believers to show mercy by helping and evangelizing the Jews. This, however, is a bit different from deciding how to treat the nation Israel, which consists mostly of unbelievers who persecute believers (Messianic Jews and Christian Arabs). Realizing that believers are counted as children of the promise and as Abraham's seed, we must be ever mindful of them and their needs, and we must stand up for them even when that entails criticizing the nation Israel. In making such a statement, I'm not advocating the abandonment of Israel. Rather, I think we're overlooking the plight of believers. Pro-Arab ministries focus on the needs of Muslim Arabs, not Christian ones. Pro-Zion ministries focus on the needs of non-Messianic Jews, not Messianic ones. As to helping Yeshua's brethren, let's remember that what we do or fail to do to the least of his brethren, we do or fail to do to him (Matthew 25:40, 45)



I've nowhere suggested abandoning the nation of Israel, nor have I advocated treating unbelieving Jewish people less courteously and less charitably than unbelieving Gentiles, who also need evangelizing. What I've done is speak up for God's elect, the Messianic Jews and Christian Arabs who are being persecuted and discriminated against by the government of Israel and by the governments of surrounding Muslim nations. I have two questions for you: (1) Where does the Bible predict that God would return the Jewish people to the Promised Land in unbelief even though their unbelief is why they were exiled? (2) Why do you ignore the possibility that Messianic Jews' desire to live in Israel is a work of God and a fulfillment of prophecy?

I don't know about you; but when I see Messianic Jews being barred from the land by unbelieving apostates, I'm siding with the Messianics, whose faith is a sign of their status as God's elect or chosen people.


As to the unbelieving, unrepentant, unregenerate Jews' return to Israel in 1948, we have no proof that it was a fulfillment of any prophecy in the TaNaKH. Surely, our sovereign Lord sets up and puts down kingdoms wherever he wills; so we must rely on his word and his Holy Spirit's guidance to help us know what to make of world events. His Torah makes it clear that his exiled people had to repent in order to be returned:

&#8220;And when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the Lord your God has driven you, 2 and return to the Lord your God, you and your children, and obey his voice in all that I command you today, with all your heart and with all your soul, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you, and he will gather you again from all the peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you. 4 If your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of heaven, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there he will take you. 5 And the Lord your God will bring you into the land that your fathers possessed, that you may possess it. And he will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers. 6 And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live" (Deuteronomy 30:1-6 English Standard Version).

Nehemiah evidently understood this, for he prayed: &#8220;O Lord God of heaven, the great and awesome God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, 6 let your ear be attentive and your eyes open, to hear the prayer of your servant that I now pray before you day and night for the people of Israel your servants, confessing the sins of the people of Israel, which we have sinned against you. Even I and my father's house have sinned. 7 We have acted very corruptly against you and have not kept the commandments, the statutes, and the rules that you commanded your servant Moses. 8 Remember the word that you commanded your servant Moses, saying, &#8216;If you are unfaithful, I will scatter you among the peoples, 9 but if you return to me and keep my commandments and do them, though your dispersed be under the farthest skies, I will gather them from there and bring them to the place that I have chosen, to make my name dwell there&#8217;" (Nehemiah 1:5-9 ESV).

In quoting Moses and Nehemiah, I've furnished the two witnesses necessary to prove my point.




The idea that God would return the Jews to Israel in unbelief is not of Jewish origin. It's from goyim ensnared by the race-based eschatology known as dispensationalism. How many Yeshua-rejecting Israelis do you think consider themselves to have been returned in unbelief? They consider their return a sign of God's favor and forgiveness--a sign that they're fine without Yeshua. They see nothing wrong with their faith and probably consider dispensationalism insulting.




Because Paul told the unbelieving Jews of his day that "God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance" (Romans 2:4 ESV), I've tried to be an instrument of God's kindness toward Israel. I'm concerned, though, that Messianic Jews are being barred from returning although they meet all the citizenship requirements (e.g., Jewish mother). What should we do when Messianic Jews who meet the requirements for return in Deuteronomy 30:1-6 are persecuted by Israelis who don't? I can't turn my back on Yeshua's brethren, nor can I help sensing that Messianics' desire to return could be even more important prophetically than the nation of Israel's rebirth in 1948.



​

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[Gxg (G²)]

The Left Behind Series has really muddied the waters.

The authors of that series believe that we Christians should be supporting Israel and hence, Zionism.

I have heard of many Christians who want to help rebuild the Temple at Jerusalem to hasten the coming of Christ.

Sheesh, as if our actions could change the mind of God? Wow. Ridiculous.

For something to consider on that, as it's predominately those on the Religious Right (led by John Hagee) that've sought to promote the Left Behind view in alot of ways, many don't realize how serious it is that one man has spearheaded the move toward doing what you noted.


On John Hagee, as the founder of Christians United for Israel, he was one of the pioneers that helped in making "a national association through which every pro-Israel church, Para-church organization, ministry or individual in America can speak and act with one voice in support of Israel in matters related to Biblical issues." John Hagee is also one of the prominent leaders behind American Zionism and advocating that the U.S.A supports the nation of Israel at all costs......

However, Hagee's views of Zionism have deadly ramifications when it comes to rejoicing over those in Arabic nations (i.e. Iraq, Iran, etc) going to war with the Jews and dying so that the Jews can be established----as that can lead to uncessary provoking of war on the Jewish people as well as the people of God. I'd say that the main way he'd perhaps qualify as "anti-semitic" is in how his arguments paralell the comments of many anti-semetic groups who try to spiritualize all actions of Jewish believers.

Rosh Pina Project said it best in their articles under the following titles:

• Rachel Tabachnick and religious extremism << The Rosh Pina Project

• Marc B. Shapiro on Hagee, Haredim and the Holocaus << The Rosh Pina Project

As said best at the Rosh Pina Project in one of their articles on Hagee:

Rachel Tabachnick writes for the Talk2Action website, and sees Christian Zionism as a post-Holocaust mesh of apocalypticism and antisemitism, rather than a genuine expression of love for Jews or the Jewish state of Israel.

She writes in Public Eye that their &#8216;distinct end times narratives share an implicit antisemitism creating the movement&#8217;s paradoxical love/hate relationship with the Jews.&#8217;

Camouflaged in love and an exuberant support for Israel, Hagee and other Christian Zionists openly teach narratives that parallel the story lines of overt anti-Semitism in which Jews are portrayed not as ordinary people, but as superhuman or subhuman. With almost no challenge (and often endorsement) from Jewish leadership, Christian Zionists are stripping away the hard-won humanity of Jews with a broadcast capacity and international reach that overtly antisemitic organizations could never match.
​

Tabachnick worries that Christian Zionists are dehumaninising Jews and &#8216;stripping away their humanity.&#8217; Yet Tabachnick herself, however, succeeds in dehumanising Jews by relegating them to a passive rather than an active role in the story of apocalypticism and religious Zionism.

It is worth mentioning at this point that John Hagee is no friend of Messianic Jews, seeing as he has denied that Yeshua is Messiah.

John Hagee denies Jesus as Messiah! (Mirror)​

This is a position that the majority of Messianic Jews do, and should, reject. But back to Tabachnick&#8217;s critique of Hagee&#8217;s Christian Zionism.

Although she writes in detail about Christian Zionism, Tabachnick does not see it fit to mention the religious Zionist ideology as developed by Avraham Kook in the early 20th century. Whilst John Hagee may see a Jewish return to Israel as preceding the Redemption, Kook himself saw the return of Jews to Israel as a means within itself of achieving Redemption.

However, not all religious Jews would agree with Kook. Kook&#8217;s contemporary, the Munkaczer Rebbe Chaim Elazar Spira was one of the most outspoken opponents of Zionism on religious grounds.


Whilst Kook saw secular Zionism as an unwitting part of God&#8217;s plan for the Redemption of Israel, and a force to bring the Moshiach, Spira saw the Zionist project as sinful and potentially disastrous, as a Jewish state established before the arrival of Moshiach would allow the possibility of Jewish apostasy in the land of Israel.

Christianity also has had both its Zionist thinkers and its anti-Zionist thinkers, who disagree about whether their faith permits a Jewish nationalistic hope before the return of the Messiah. But to associate all Christians into either extremist Zionists or anti-Zionists would be like saying all Orthodox Jews are either Kahanists or Neturei Karta.

Tabachnick criticises Hagee&#8217;s views of Hitler as a &#8220;hunter&#8221;: would she also criticise the Lubavitcher Rebbe&#8217;s comparison of Hitler with &#8220;God&#8217;s servant&#8221; Nebuchadnezzer, or the Satmar Rebbe&#8217;s ideas that Zionists were to blame for the Holocaust?

Tabachnick cites Christian Zionist speculation about an impending Holocaust of Jews as further evidence of their anti-Jewish bigotry, but similar speculation routinely occurs within Judaism. For example, Aish haTorah Rabbi Pinchas Winston believes that four-fifths of Jews will perish before the Redemption. Although often grizzly, negative theological thinking about the possibility of a future shoah in Israel is not necessarily anti-Semitism.


Tabachnick criticises John Hagee (and Christian Zionists and Messianic Jews by extension) for calling Israel&#8217;s enemies &#8216;Esav&#8217;. Yet &#8216;Esav&#8217; is often used by haredi opponents of Messianic Jews in order to demonise not just Jewish believers in Yeshua, but also Christians, Gentiles, and the wider Western world.

Tabachnick claims that Israeli Messianic Jews are complicit in targetting other Jews through apocalyptic beliefs and evangelism, without mentioning that in Israel, End Times teaching is actually turned against Messianic Jews by the ultra-Orthodox establishment. Israel&#8217;s Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar teaches that the civil rights of Messianic Jews are a sign that we are living in the End of Days.

Tabachnick portrays Jewish believers plotting against their fellow Jews, and highlights Dan Juster&#8217;s writings to prove that Messianic Jews want to save Israel from rabbinic Judaism. Yet don&#8217;t most rabbis also teach that rabbinic Judaism is merely an interim phase between the destruction of the Second Temple and the coming of Moshiach? And don&#8217;t the Satmar, Bobov and Neturei Karta Jews teach that rabbinic Judaism needs to be saved from Israel and Zionism? And what about the various kiruv movements who want to &#8216;save&#8217; secular Israelis through rabbinic Judaism? Aren&#8217;t they just as bad as Messianic Jews?

In the free market of ideas, advancing your beliefs may be to the detriment of someone else&#8217;s, even if this is not your intention. Should we then not publicise our beliefs for fear of offending others? For whatever reason, only Messianic Jews are portrayed as sinister and aggressive for asserting their beliefs and their right to express them.


​

Where I think Hagee/those similar in thought in the U.S, their main error is in regards to Christian Zionism. I'm reminded of what another said best on the issue when commenting on how they had some non-Messianic Jewish family that actually lives in Israel...and talking with them and their friends/neighbors when he visited Israel, it was amazing to him to see that they definitely consider Christian Zionism to have a&#8230; mercenary&#8230; attitude, as they love Israel only because they believe Israel is essential in Jesus&#8217; return. And anyone counter to their goals is essentially a "tragedy of war"...

For some resources you can investiage on the issue, one of them would be the ministry of "ZEEK: A Jewish Journal of Thought and Culture"--as seen in their article entitled "A Serial Obstructionist"

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I could never support a state that says, "We're democratic" and then turns around and says, "But only for Jews." Or that points tank cannons at little kids walking home from school...daring them to step out into the street and break curfew so they can blow 'em up.

Something that I think gets lost with Zionism is that it has NEVER been the case that all Jews were ever treated on higher status as those who were not. For even within the world of Israel, many Jews were treated on a second class level since the nation was founded during a time when COLOR made a significant difference in who was either accepted or rejected---and that's something that's often forgotten when it comes to the face of Zionism that others are told to accept as if it represents what was truly an accepting world for Jews of all kinds.

I've sought to share more on this subject elsewhere, concerning how many Jews of Color were discriminated against/harrassed just as other people of COlor were around the world during the era of WWII...and why many refuse to acknowledge it (as seen here in #7 #8, #13 and #14 ).

As said best by another elsewhere on the issue:

Most people would assume that all Africans in the colonies were whipped into believing in Christ generations ago after being stripped of their culture and taken to the New World. However, Jamaican slaves came primarily from Ethiopia, and if you've heard of Operation Moses (1984) and Operation Solomon (1991), you know that the Israeli government and many religious authorities consider the Beta Jews of Ethiopia authentic, and perhaps even related to the lost tribe of Dan. If that's the case, then for many Jamaicans, the Black Diaspora was only a continuation of the Jewish Diaspora, and while they may read King James's Bible, it's King Solomon they have allegiance to.


​

Concerning Zion, if you're aware of the situation with those who are Black Jews, many appreciate that they have a place to escape the persecution, Israel..but on the other side of that, there is alot of racism among the Ashkenazim influx who do not accept them as they should... and thus sometimes they are treated as second class citizens in Israel. It has been a situation that has angered many Jewish people....

]​

Crowds of Ethiopian `Falash Mura` immigrants protested at an Israeli government decision not to admit more of their relatives because of a judgment that they had converted from Judaism to Christianity....


And when I LOOk at the demographics of congregations claiming to be Messianic Jewish, it often seems as if there are very few that discuss the issue of what's happening to Beta Israel....or the FALASHA Mura. Of course, I'm aware of others in Israel..but again, I don't see the issue broadcast often...and I was curious as to why. Thankfully, coverage is being done on the issue elsewhere/others are becoming aware of the dual reality that the "persecuted Israelies" are involved in when it comes to proclaiming to the world how there's is a homeland for "Jews"/they are attacked on all sides and mistreated....and yet, behind the lines, much of the same is done to the very people with legitimate claims of Jewish blood.

For more info on the matter of those who are Black Jews:

• The Rosh Pina Project (an alternative look at Messianic Jews): Call to blacklist Ethiopian Messianic Jews

• The Rosh Pina Project ( an alternative look at Messianic Jews ): Is Today's Jewish State Racist?

• New Signs that Ethiopian Aliyah Will Resume

• Israel’s welcome for Ethiopian Jews wears thin

• The Jews of Africa -- The Beta Israel of Ethiopia

• Ethnicity , Citizenship, Planning and Gender: the case of Ethiopian immigrant women in Israel"​
  
  
  
  

Additionally, there was actually an insightful video I was able to come across on the issue of Ethopian Jews. For more information on them:

• Falasha - Exile of the Black Jews - Part 1
• Falasha - Exile of the Black Jews - Part 2
• Falasha - Exile of the Black Jews - Part 3
• Falasha - Exile of the Black Jews - Part 4[Final]

In regards to Zionism, it is interesting when considering the Ethopian Orthodox church and their Judaic spirit. They have Shabbat, cashrus, a replica of the Aron habrit and actual priests officiating to it. IMHO, they're almost a kind of "messianic catholic" church...except that their camp is a historical movement with a very RICH history behind it. For those who were already Jewish in their background and yet were reached out to by Orthodox, it'd seem that perhaps their cultural practices were assimilated into one specific branch of Orthodoxy and thus you see all of the striking parallels to Judaism that are found within Ethopian Orthodoxy...whereas other camps assimilated people that had no connection to Judaism--and thus, what occurred was that a differing picture/variation developed amongst those within the Gentile branch of Orthodoxy. And with Ethopians being supported in Israel when they're persecuted, that is a form of Zionism....


For other examples of Jews in Israel who've been persecuted by the Same Zionists attacking Palestinians, I'm reminded of those with what's called Bene Israel. The Jews there are said to be descendants of the survivors of an ancient shipwreck. An excellent book on the issue is known as "Burnt Bread and Chutney"...and as the author explains in the preface, the Bene Israel “evolved quite uniquely, without many of the holidays, rituals, and rabbinic rulings introduced meanwhile in the general Jewish Diaspora. …They adopted the local language, Marathi, and manners of dress like the sari, along with some of the other Indian customs; they… mostly kept to themselves. They maintained the few ancient Jewish rituals which could be passed on.” At the same time, they absorbed Indian influences in prayer melodies and rituals, fasting, pilgrimages, and caste-like ways....who in some parts are known for still practicing polygamy still as did many of the patriarchs (Abraham, Jacob, etc) and David did---thus angering others there. One can go here for more (as well as here). Additionally, one can go here for more on the subject...as well as here at Israel - The Indian Diaspora or here at Being Indian, Being Israeli | Asia Society. Many were deemed not "Jewish" enough due to their being brown---and others of the European Jewery (who are in control of the land) not giving them rights.

It has ALWAYS been a racial issue...


Perhaps the biggest example of discrimination amongst the Jews is seen Palestinian Arabs. For what's interesting to consider is how many Palestinian Arabs are mixed with Jewish blood. Some of the battles seem to be very sticky in light of how many battles are raging on when it comes to discussing Palestinians and Jews---and yet, for many saying "Well, the land is for JEWS ONLY!!!" or "God loves Jews, He hates Arabs!!!!!", what amazes me is that SO FEW seem willing to deal with the realities of how many Palestinians were of Jewish descent....and, for that matter, how many of Arab-Jewish descent have ALWAYS been in existence. Many of them had backgrounds similar to Samaritans, where there was a mixture of blood/culture----with many living in the land and having a Jewish connection while also tied to Non-Jewish culture. For those Jews who lived with Palestinians and had peace with them, it can be awkward for them since they don't see all Palestinians as in error. However, they may not take as much heat as those who are considered to be "half-breeds" .... mistreated and still are villified Jewish people as well as Arabs.


For more:

Arab Jews - Young, Jewish, and Left Excerpt ​

Jews in Iran - Australian TV - 1/2 ​

Jews in Iran - Australian TV - 2/​

The Case of Palestinian Jews ​

As teacher/scholar Tony Malouf (of Lebonese descent) said in his book entitled "Arabs in the Shadow of Israel", one doesn't have to "hate/curse an Arab in order to love a Jew"--and it often seems that in the process of trying to avoid anything anti-semitic, people often end up adopting an Anti-Arab stance in the process that's just as deadly...for just because something is Pro-Semitic doesn't mean its truly Pro-Jesus (who condemned many attitudes tolerated by his own people and praised things in groups outside of His people. Outside of the fact that Brother Tony is an amazing individual and has had his work referenced in many places that do work with reconcilliation activities, Tony's book was rather insightful when it came to addresing the aformentioned issues---and in light of how a Messianic Jew recommended his work, I take that seriously For more on Tony's work and the varying perspectives of others who may be similar in thought, one can go here

And as it concerns both Arabs and Jews existing within Eastern Christianity, for more examples, one can go here/investigate the following:

• &#8592; Peoplehood I
• Peoplehood II
• A Jewish-Arab Mission? | The Groom's Family
• Another Israeli Orthodox Church | The Groom's Family

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I have heard of many Christians who want to help rebuild the Temple at Jerusalem to hasten the coming of Christ.

Sheesh, as if our actions could change the mind of God? Wow. Ridiculous.

It's really a mercenary mindset, which is something that's rather foolish--as if one could force the hand of the Lord to speed things up

 

[Lukaris]

There is way too much obsession towards Israel that run the extreme in the pro or con and contribute to a self fulfilled prophecy of apocalypse.

 

[ProScribe]

{Based on what I understand - Mt. Zion means Mountain of Sunshine in the biblical context. -<Political Zionist(ism)>- is a weird pro-Israeli tiny political state.} [{--}]

 

[MariaRegina]

{Based on what I understand - Mt. Zion means Mountain of Sunshine in the biblical context. -<Political Zionist(ism)>- is a weird pro-Israeli tiny political state.} [{--}]

I thought it was Mountain of Butter. Oh joys of butter.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

There is way too much obsession towards Israel that run the extreme in the pro or con and contribute to a self fulfilled prophecy of apocalypse.

Self-Fulfilled prophecy is an understatement...

 

[ArmyMatt]

I kinda find it funny how Christian Zionists typically are sola scriptura and forget that St John the Baptist says that if God wills He could make stones the sons of Abraham, and that Revelation says that the city that Christ was crucified in is as to Sodom and Egypt.

kinda slams Zionism in the face a tad...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Real...