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This isn't about sanctity to us though but proper matter and form
If the couple is in a state of sin it's still valid
That is quite different... annulment means there never was a valid marriage. The Orthodox as far as I understand (any Orthodox posters please correct me if I'm wrong) believe that with certain actions like adultery, a valid marriage becomes dissolved and the couple can then remarry. Divorce is seen as a sin but remarriage is allowed in cases. The Catholic Church does not believe the marriage gets dissolved and the couple can separate for serious reasons but NOT remarry. Annulment is granted if there was something wrong with how they said their vows to begin with. Contrary to what people are saying in the media the Catholic Church is not changing this teaching under Pope Francis, no Pope can change an infallible teaching... even if there are discussions on certain topics.
Question to Orthodox posters: did I explain your teaching accurately?
In many cases the couple were not aware or didn't care at the time...which again begs the question of how can you know proper matter and form was not met years after the fact, especially when the matter and form seemed fine earlier?
I read an Orthodox article and before asked on another forum about this... from my research it seems the Orthodox view is that the marriage gets automatically dissolved with certain actions. I would be open to correction though.. the Catholic view is that it doesn't dissolve.. we interpret Our Lord's words differently too in Matthew 5I have actually never asked about this, but I seriously doubt we would say the marriage is dissolved by adultery? I think it could be seen as a valid reason to grant a divorce (this is what Christ seems to be saying as well). But I doubt there is a set of rules that defines all marriages and divorces (though I imagine there are probably guidelines). I suspect it would be handled with caution and on a case by case basis. But while I know there has been divorce in our parish, I have not seen one in the years since I have been there.
In many cases the couple were not aware or didn't care at the time...
Some people say that annulments might be given too easily sometimes in the modern age but the concept of annulment is based on something serious at the time of the wedding. I think it's different from donatism because intent is different from holiness. If a priest doesn't intend to consecrate the Eucharist, the consecration doesn't happen, but if he's in sin it still happens.. if a couple is in sin their marriage is valid (though they commit sacrilege) but a lack of intent can affect validity as a lack of matter/form
Intent to baptize etc is part of the form in Catholic teaching.. for instance if a priest says the words of Consecration with the intent to teach seminarians, that's different than Massso if a priest doesn't intend to baptize a baby, even if the baby is confirmed, receives confession and communion, he cannot be married because he was never a member of the Catholic Church if it was discovered that the priest never intended to baptize him...
this really makes no sense if God is the one at work
Intent to baptize etc is part of the form in Catholic teaching.. for instance if a priest says the words of Consecration with the intent to teach seminarians, that's different than Mass
Am I correct the Orthodox teach a marriage gets automatically (or at all) dissolved by adultery etc? That is what I read from an Orthodox source
The Liturgy is a work of the congregation, not just the priest. And the priest is merely an extension of his bishop. It is nowhere near as simple as you make it out to be.Intent to baptize etc is part of the form in Catholic teaching.. for instance if a priest says the words of Consecration with the intent to teach seminarians, that's different than Mass
I've mentioned in the past that Catholics can never really be certain they are married, and that there are innumerable Catholics who think they are married but aren't in actuality. Very strange indeed.I never thought of that.
So a couple ... would essentially be guilty of years of fornication without having known it? What does that mean for their children too? Were they born out of wedlock?
Strange situation to contemplate.
It is a great tragedy... very sad when this occurs.I'm a Traditional Catholic, though I was raised Novus Ordo, and I've become dissatisfied, and I'd say even disenfranchised from the Catholic Church. Most of my family isn't Catholic, and many of my friends are not as well. I've always debated with people about the Faith. Until recently, I entered these arguments with little knowledge of my own Church and with the certainty that what I believed had to be right, no matter what. Recently though, I've adopted the viewpoint that I shouldn't hold my faith to my own mind. If the Lord wills that I be somewhere else, then He'll show me where I need to be. I'm also planning on becoming a Priest, so I need to be certain that I believe in my Faith before I commit to the near 11 years of education required for it. I've become very interested in the Orthodox Church lately, and I'm not putting it past myself to begin visiting an Orthodox Church in my spare time and see if it's where God wants me. However, I major issue I've developed with the Catholic Church is the issue of Divorce. As many of you probably know, Pope Francis' recent writings have left the question of divorce, and the receiving of Communion without an annullment. Many, more progressive Cardinals, Bishops, and Priests have used this disarray to allow unlawfully divorced people to receive Communion as a result. This is on top of Pope Francis blaming all of the world's problems on "rigid" people such as myself. In short, what is the position of the Orthodox Church on Divorce? I've heard that Divorce is legal in the Orthodox Church, but as far as I can tell, that seems to be contrary to the Bible. Is there justification for this stance? Before I can even consider committing to the process of becoming Orthodox, I obviously need to clear up some hurdles. This is one of them. I apologize for my long winded sob-story, and hope this brings a fruitful discussion!
I've never thought about it like that, that people could be living in an adulterous state for the rest of their lives without knowing it. I imagine that the Church would fire back with the statement that "if someone doesn't know they're committing a sin, then they aren't culpable". But when you put it like that, an annulment just kind of sounds like them looking over a marriage with a comb to find an excuse to invalidate it. I'm sure I'm oversimplifying it, but that's how it sounds now that I think about it.
I may be wrong, but Orthodoxy is more comfortable with the idea that someone can forfeit sacramental grace. For example, chrism is repeated for apostates and Orthodoxy teaches that chrism literally anoints one with the Spirit. Hence, the Spirit can be lost. The fact that marriage can be repeated in Orthodoxy is consistent with the idea that a sacrament can be lost entirely. In RCism, they will jump through hoops for anullments because their theology does not allow for the repetition of certain sacraments.
I am a catechumen, so I know there must be rough edges around the above to say the least. Please correct me.
Wow that's very interesting and seems good to me but I'm not well schooled in that sort of thing. I must say I think the Orthodox way is much better!I may be wrong, but Orthodoxy is more comfortable with the idea that someone can forfeit sacramental grace. For example, chrism is repeated for apostates and Orthodoxy teaches that chrism literally anoints one with the Spirit. Hence, the Spirit can be lost. The fact that marriage can be repeated in Orthodoxy is consistent with the idea that a sacrament can be lost entirely. In RCism, they will jump through hoops for anullments because their theology does not allow for the repetition of certain sacraments.
I am a catechumen, so I know there must be rough edges around the above to say the least. Please correct me.
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