Orthodox Questions - Reformed Answers

[JM]

Without a context you are just creating a pretext to eisegesis.

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." (1 John 4:1-3)

And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. Matthew 27

"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth." (Exodus 20:4)

Excellent quote. Too bad your philosophical constructs rearrange theological categories and by doing so, "Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." Mark 7

"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Good quote. Can you prove the traditions Paul was taking about in 2 Thessalonians are the same traditions held by Orthodox Christians today? Nope. You are assuming they are.

And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly." (Hebrews 9:3-5)

Let's put these passages in a biblical context by viewing others that contain more information about the subject. By doing this we can gleam how Christ our Lord would have understood it. The Holy Scripture declares,

"Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:" Isa. 29

We must always be moving toward Jesus Christ as revealed in scripture and away from the precepts of man.

Please see Deuteronomy 12. It's a long passage and I do not want to quote it here but it does deal with worship under the old Mosaic covenant of works.

v. 1.-2 destroy Temples belonging to false religion
v. 4-19 worship is prescribed where God reveals His name…the Tabernacle
v. 4. “You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way.”
v.8 “You shall not do according to all that we are doing here today, everyone doing whatever is right in his own eyes,”
v. 20-21 the revealed will of God regulates worship
v. 29-21 we are not to be influenced by culture
v.31 “You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the Lord hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.”
v. 32 “Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.”

Under the old covenant God directed every aspect of Israel's worship in His revealed word. God alone determines how we come to God in worship and this excluded any practices that were not revealed in His word. Why? According to the Old Testament extra biblical practices nullified true biblical worship and call into question God's holy revelation (the Bible) by adding to it. All worship not commanded by God in His word is condemned as false worship. I ask that you have a look at a few passages on your own for further clarification. Listing them would make my reply even longer.

Lev. 10.1-3; Deut. 4.2, 12.29-32, 17.3; Josh. 1.7, 23.6-8; Matt. 15.13; Col. 2.20-23

Many Christians will claim that images aid a believer in devotion, help make worship more beautiful and move along the worship serve. Icons were chosen by some, fought over for a few hundreds years, and now enforced upon all as "Orthodox." This runs contrary to the old covenant revelation concerning images and worship, what changed between the covenants? You can read the link I posted above...but for now lets continue with the old covenant.

The angels mentioned are decorative angels, directly revealed by God in scripture, to be added to the top of the Ark of the Covenant. Keep in mind it was a direct command by God recorded in His written word. It must be noted that only the High Priest, Jesus Christ is our High Priest (Hebrews 4), and no one else was allowed to enter into the Holy of Holies to even see these angels. You will also find missing from scripture any example of the High Priest bowing down before the angels, kissing them, or praying to them or what they represented. The High Priest did not offer candles or incense to the Angels on the Ark of the Covenant.

So what was the purpose of the angels?

Were worshipers to gaze upon them in adoration, asking them for assistance or looking through them into heaven? Absolutely not.

Paul tells us in Hebrews, "And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat" (Hebrews 9)

They simply pointed to the middle of the top of the table which was the mercyseat which did not contain any image. The Psalmist tells us that our God "dwellest between the cherubims" (Ps. 80) in the empty space and not in or through images. When Christ came He replaced the old covenant so that we may, "come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." (Hebrews 4) This throne of grace does not contain images.

“And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.” (Exodus 25:18-22)

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[truefiction1]

Without a context you are just creating a pretext to eisegesis.

And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. Matthew 27

"The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light. "But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth." (Matthew 6:23)

 

[truefiction1]

Excellent quote. Too bad your philosophical constructs rearrange theological categories and by doing so, "Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." Mark 7

"and having ears, hear ye not?" (Matthew 16:18)

Good quote. Can you prove the traditions Paul was taking about in 2 Thessalonians are the same traditions held by Orthodox Christians today? Nope. You are assuming they are.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things." (1 John 2:19-20)

 

[truefiction1]

Let's put these passages in a biblical context by viewing others that contain more information about the subject. By doing this we can gleam how Christ our Lord would have understood it. The Holy Scripture declares,

"Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:" Isa. 29

We must always be moving toward Jesus Christ as revealed in scripture and away from the precepts of man.

Please see Deuteronomy 12. It's a long passage and I do not want to quote it here but it does deal with worship under the old Mosaic covenant of works.

v. 1.-2 destroy Temples belonging to false religion
v. 4-19 worship is prescribed where God reveals His name…the Tabernacle
v. 4. “You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way.”
v.8 “You shall not do according to all that we are doing here today, everyone doing whatever is right in his own eyes,”
v. 20-21 the revealed will of God regulates worship
v. 29-21 we are not to be influenced by culture
v.31 “You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the Lord hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.”
v. 32 “Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.”

Under the old covenant God directed every aspect of Israel's worship in His revealed word. God alone determines how we come to God in worship and this excluded any practices that were not revealed in His word. Why? According to the Old Testament extra biblical practices nullified true biblical worship and call into question God's holy revelation (the Bible) by adding to it. All worship not commanded by God in His word is condemned as false worship. I ask that you have a look at a few passages on your own for further clarification. Listing them would make my reply even longer.

Lev. 10.1-3; Deut. 4.2, 12.29-32, 17.3; Josh. 1.7, 23.6-8; Matt. 15.13; Col. 2.20-23

Many Christians will claim that images aid a believer in devotion, help make worship more beautiful and move along the worship serve. Icons were chosen by some, fought over for a few hundreds years, and now enforced upon all as "Orthodox." This runs contrary to the old covenant revelation concerning images and worship, what changed between the covenants? You can read the link I posted above...but for now lets continue with the old covenant.

The angels mentioned are decorative angels, directly revealed by God in scripture, to be added to the top of the Ark of the Covenant. Keep in mind it was a direct command by God recorded in His written word. It must be noted that only the High Priest, Jesus Christ is our High Priest (Hebrews 4), and no one else was allowed to enter into the Holy of Holies to even see these angels. You will also find missing from scripture any example of the High Priest bowing down before the angels, kissing them, or praying to them or what they represented. The High Priest did not offer candles or incense to the Angels on the Ark of the Covenant.

So what was the purpose of the angels?

Were worshipers to gaze upon them in adoration, asking them for assistance or looking through them into heaven? Absolutely not.

Paul tells us in Hebrews, "And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat" (Hebrews 9)

They simply pointed to the middle of the top of the table which was the mercyseat which did not contain any image. The Psalmist tells us that our God "dwellest between the cherubims" (Ps. 80) in the empty space and not in or through images. When Christ came He replaced the old covenant so that we may, "come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." (Hebrews 4) This throne of grace does not contain images.

“And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.” (Exodus 25:18-22)

Yours in the Lord,

jm

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." (Galatians 5:1)

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." (Galatians 5:4)

"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Galatians 5:14)

"About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”

“Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”

The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.” (Acts 10:9:15)

"To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled." (Titus 1:15)

 

[truefiction1]

This runs contrary to the old covenant revelation concerning images and worship, what changed between the covenants?

"...the Word became flesh" (John 1:14)

"...Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. (Acts 2:22-24)

"And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.…" (Acts 1:9)

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams" (Acts 2:17)

"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:1-4)

"...I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18) "...which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15)

 

[truefiction1]

“And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.” (Exodus 25:18-22)

"But whoever loves God is known by God. So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." (1 Corinthians 8:3-6)

 

[JM]

It's like talking into a black hole.

 

[truefiction1]

It's like talking into a black hole.

"The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness." (1 Kings 8:12)

 

[JM]

What I have been doing so fse...

ex·e·ge·sis

ˌeksiˈjēsis/

noun

critical explanation or interpretation of a text, especially of scripture.

"the task of biblical exegesis"

What the Orthodox tend to do...

"Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsəˈdʒiːsəs/; from the Greek preposition εἰς "into" and the ending from the English word exegesis, Greek ἐξήγησις, which in turn is derived from ἐξηγεῖσθαι "to lead out")[1] is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that the process introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases into and onto the text. This is commonly referred to as reading into the text.[2] The act is often used to "prove" a pre-held point of concern to the reader and to provide him or her with confirmation biasin accordance with his or her pre-held agenda. Eisegesis is best understood when contrasted with exegesis. While exegesis is the process of drawing out the meaning from a text in accordance with the context and discoverable meaning of its author, eisegesis occurs when a reader imposes his or her interpretation into and onto the text. As a result, exegesis tends to be objective when employed effectively while eisegesis is regarded as highly subjective."

fiction has been busy randomly quoting scripture without context, without offering any intellectual argument or engaging me at any meaningful level. fiction is not, thank goodness, representative or the Eastern Orthodox denomination.

Yours in the Lord.

 

[JM]

"The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness." (1 Kings 8:12)

Ah, so you are claiming to be God now? You are the black whole, the one dwelling in thick darkness? Got it.

 

[~Anastasia~]

My apologies btw. I do not mean to be ignoring this thread, but I am simply too busy and also focused on other things during these last days before Christmas. I cannot give it the time replies would deserve. This is a time when we hope to be especially focused on prayer, and while I have never been one to go in for crazy-overdoing Christmas preparations, there are a few things I want to have done for the sake of my family.

So please accept my apologies, and God be with you all, and grant you peace, especially in this season of great anticipation and joy.

 

[truefiction1]

Ah, so you are claiming to be God now? You are the black whole, the one dwelling in thick darkness? Got it.

"For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." (1 Corinthians 2:16)

What I have been doing so fse...

ex·e·ge·sis

ˌeksiˈjēsis/

noun

critical explanation or interpretation of a text, especially of scripture.

"the task of biblical exegesis"

What the Orthodox tend to do...

"Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsəˈdʒiːsəs/; from the Greek preposition εἰς "into" and the ending from the English word exegesis, Greek ἐξήγησις, which in turn is derived from ἐξηγεῖσθαι "to lead out")[1] is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that the process introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases into and onto the text. This is commonly referred to as reading into the text.[2] The act is often used to "prove" a pre-held point of concern to the reader and to provide him or her with confirmation biasin accordance with his or her pre-held agenda. Eisegesis is best understood when contrasted with exegesis. While exegesis is the process of drawing out the meaning from a text in accordance with the context and discoverable meaning of its author, eisegesis occurs when a reader imposes his or her interpretation into and onto the text. As a result, exegesis tends to be objective when employed effectively while eisegesis is regarded as highly subjective."

fiction has been busy randomly quoting scripture without context, without offering any intellectual argument or engaging me at any meaningful level. fiction is not, thank goodness, representative or the Eastern Orthodox denomination.

Yours in the Lord.

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man." (1 Corintians 2:7-15)

*quotes are not random and are never without context

 

[truefiction1]

The Iconophiles found a champion in John of Damascus (645/676 – 749) who offered a polemic for the use of images. Cannon describes John as one of the few strong theologians of the 8th century, not in the same class as Augustine of Hippo, but without equal in the West for the time period. Using a philosophical framework of categories and causes borrowed from Aristotle John of Damascus argued the Second Commandment was abrogated by the Incarnation of Christ. “If one accepted this vocabulary and Aristotelian framework, then devotion to visual images in Christianity was safe.” (MacCulloch, page 448) The Greek church essentially changed the language which framed the debate over images from art to theology. Sources listed on my blog​

I don't know how credible this particular translation is, but the following link is to an English translation of the actual polemic that John of Damascus had written against Iconoclasm. I'm sharing it for the benefit of anyone who may be interested in possibly discovering for themselves what John wrote:
http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/johndamascus-images.asp

 

[JM]

My apologies btw. I do not mean to be ignoring this thread, but I am simply too busy and also focused on other things during these last days before Christmas. I cannot give it the time replies would deserve. This is a time when we hope to be especially focused on prayer, and while I have never been one to go in for crazy-overdoing Christmas preparations, there are a few things I want to have done for the sake of my family.

So please accept my apologies, and God be with you all, and grant you peace, especially in this season of great anticipation and joy.

Understood. I appreciate the care you take in responding unlike others who randomly quote scripture like a modern day Marcion...without context or purpose.

Yours in the Lord

 

[JM]

*quotes are not random and are never without context

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,"

"From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus."

"Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,"

 

[truefiction1]

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,"

"From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus."

"Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,"

Now yer talkin.

 

[JM]

"...whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:15

"...and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48

We are saved by faith and only those ordained will believe.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[AMR]

Indeed.

 

[truefiction1]

Indeed He is risen!

 

[JM]

@Light of the East

"God hates? I thought the Bible says that God is love."

The Bible talks about hate 87 times. It's a big subject. God has judged sin to be sin so yes God is love, but it would be unbalanced to say that God is only love, for his wrath was poured out on Christ for us and "he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Yours in the Lord,

jm