Orthodox Questions - Reformed Answers

[JM]

@Kylissa and I were discussing the London Baptist Confession of Faith and it’s pronouncements about the Trinity and other doctrines touching the Godhead. Since I’m not able to offer an answer in the EO forum I will post it here.

The problem with "scripture only" as I'm sure you're aware is that interpretation plays a role. People from two very different denominations with different beliefs often look at the same sets of verses to reach their conclusions. I will say one thing though - one of the things I have always appreciated most about my Baptist background was that their appreciation for Scripture is admirable.

Hi Kylissa! Welcome to the Ask a Calvinist Forum. Thank you for your patience.

As I stated before, interpretation plays a role even in Tradition, so the Eastern Orthodox are not off the hook so to speak. Interpretation still plays a roll in accepting which Tradition to follow. When I read books that cover church history I come to a very different interpretation than you and Orthodox adherents do. When I read the Fathers and church councils, I see a lot of political maneuverings, power grabs and religious leaders being installed by the rulers who could bend them to their will. What a Protestant tries to do is seek the faith once delivered to the saints and the earliest record we find this in is Holy Scripture, not Tradition.

The first thing I stumbled over I have no Scriptural argument for, but it's something I've been turning over in my mind for about a week so it caught my attention. I was initially taught how jealous God was for His glory, and in some cases even that He created people for damnation just for the purpose of showing forth His glory.

The Bible reveals a God of purpose. We know that God created a mass of people with the undetstanding that some would not choose Him, yet, God still created them knowing their only destination would be hell. I would say God knew that. It is both biblically and Traditionally orthodox to say God knows all things exhaustively and that knowledges extends to His purpose in damming souls to hell. What the Orthodox fail to do is give a purpose to those who are created by God and end up in hell. It’s almost as if the Orthodox are claiming God is powerless in the face of fallen, sinful mans freewill.

In your first paragraph (too late to quote) I got caught on that God "work(s) all things according to His will ... for His glory". That would need to be qualified in order to discuss. Would you agree that ALL things are strictly for the purpose of His glory?

I would say yes, that God works all things after the council of His own will for His own glory. What acts or events that take place in time are not? I think that is the better question. Consider Joseph being sold into slavery in Gen. 50 where the sinful act of man revealed the glory of God by saving the many people.

“But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.”

The scriptures are littered with such examples. Man lashes out against fellow man with malicious intent and ultimately God is gloried in the action.

I think I can say that would not be the Orthodox position. I can't explain well what the Orthodox position is,

I mean no offence but you are not alone. Many Eastern Orthodox rely purely on the experiences they have to sustain their faith. Don’t get me wrong, us Reformed folks have many heartfelt experiences during prayer, attending to the Lord’s Supper, baptisms, evangelism, reading the word of God, or simply being impressed by the Holy Spirit during a sermon. Often I am brought to tears as I read the scriptures or during my private devotions. The difference would be the Protestant ideal, where we seek to “think God’s thoughts after Him,” that is reform our mind to the revealed will of God in the scriptures.

but yes I can see the working out of all human history to show His glory, and He will certainly defeat Satan - but I am uncomfortable ascribing this as his overriding motive. It actually demeans God, don't you think, if He has to perform all acts just to show everyone how impressive He is? Indeed, how does the amazing humility of Christ, if Christ is immutable, fit into this? (I'm not trying to bait you, and it realize you have not spelled out your degree of agreement or disagreement with any part of this.)

According to Orthodox teaching…what is the ultimate purpose of creation, including mankind? To us Reformed and Calvinistic folks we believe, and we have ample biblical evidence to support it, that all things were created to give glory to God. The old catechism reads, “the chief end of man is to glorify God and love him forever.”

Christ came to earth to act in our stead or in our place. The old King James word is surety, “By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.” If the ultimate end of man is to glorify God and love him forever Christ did that for us with His perfect life and death. Christ’s amazing humility was lived out for us who are dead in trespasses and sin.

“And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;” Eph. 2

“And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;” Col. 2

 

[JM]

I also question the absolute justice of God, and his failure to "clear the guilty". You might need to explain that. Of course we are all guilty, so any forgiveness is going to be clearing the guilty. And is God just? If He were, we all deserve full punishment for any sin. Even if one subscribes to PSA, which the Orthodox Church does not - how can one say it is actually just to punish one in another's place? It's actually not, though it is certainly something those who believe it to be necessary are grateful for.

As an Orthodox Christian you must realize that message of the early church is viewed through the layered context of history. For example, the simplicity of the Gospel found in the New Testament text is seen through the lens of Eastern Orthodox interpretation and that interpretation has been influenced by Eastern Philosophy. What I would like to do is just take a moment to demonstrate how Reformed, Evangelical, Baptists, even some Roman Catholic view the Gospel. We have many ideas about what a person has to do to get to heaven. Some believe we must follow the “Golden Rule,” and do good deeds, attend church services to outwardly demonstrate our faith and gain some kind of favour with God. The underlying assumption is that we are basically good people who need healing. But is this true?

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

The Bible repeatedly states that God has given mankind a holy, universal Law, that is written on our hearts and our conscience bears witness to this Law. This Law is revealed and summarized in the Ten Commandments. When we look at God’s Law, we must understand that we have all sinned in some way or another; remember, you don’t have to break all Ten to be guilty of breaking the Law. The Bible warns, “For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.”

“… it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” Hebrews 9:27

Let’s look at a few of the Commandments and see how we fare:

“You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.” Have you ever taken God’s name in vain? If you have, you are a blasphemer and can not enter the Kingdom of God.

“Honour your father and mother.” Have you always honoured your parents in a respectful manner? In a way that God would consider honouring?

“You shall not steal.” Have you ever taken something that didn’t belong to you (irrespective of its value)? What do you call someone who takes something that doesn’t belong to them? A thief – You cannot enter God’s Kingdom.

“You shall not bear false witness.” Have you ever told a lie? Just one? What do you call someone who told a lie? A liar. The Bible warns that all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire.

You and I are guilty of sinning against God by breaking His Law, and because we have a conscience, we have sinned “with knowledge.” Isn’t it true that when you steal, lie, etc. you know that it’s wrong? Does the fact that you have sinned against God bother you? The punishment for breaking God’s Law is Hell. Eternal Death.

“Almost every natural man that hears of hell, flatters himself that he shall escape it; he depends upon himself for his own security; he flatters himself in what he has done, in what he is now doing, or what he intends to do. Every one lays out matters in his own mind how he shall avoid damnation, and flatters himself that he contrives well for himself, and that his schemes will not fail.[1]”

WHAT MUST YOU DO TO BE SAVED FROM THE PENALTY OF BREAKING GOD’S LAW?

There is good news, there is a GOSPEL. God the Father has given us a mediator in Jesus Christ who is the incarnation of God. Jesus took upon Himself man’s nature, becoming subject to the Law of God, and perfectly obeying the Law in thought and deed for His entire lifetime on earth. While on earth Christ took the sins of His people upon Himself, and suffering the punishment due to all their sins paid the penalty by dying on the Cross, “…for the wages of sin is death.”

By dying in place of His people Jesus Christ became the mediator between God and man and revived in His people the righteousness, holiness and true knowledge lost as a consequence of sin.

As we find ourselves before a holy God we are convicted for breaking His righteous Law. The Holy Spirit moves in the soul to bring us to acknowledge our guilt and brokenness before God and His righteousness. We come to hate sin and find Jesus Christ precious. The Holy Spirit convinces the broken sinner of the shamefulness of sin and then brings the offender to a place where they can, “repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.”

If you feel the weight of sin on your heart and have come to see the blackness of your soul in the light of God’s Law…if you have been brought to a place where you dread the judgement of the trice holy God, BELIEVE THE GOSPEL! If you believe that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for your sins the Bible assures us that, “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”


__________________________________________________

[1] quote taken from a sermon by Jonathan Edwards titled, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.”

 

[JM]

And "without body" ... I'm a little unsure what is meant. God the Father is spirit, of course. Christ became incarnate, and has a body. Christ can be approached, and so on. But I'm not aware of Baptists actually believing differently from Orthodox here, so perhaps I misunderstand.

I believe the Orthodox and Protestantism would be in agreement. The passage where we read “without body” refers to the Holy Trinity and the unity of the Trinity. If we say, for example, that when we fall asleep in the Lord and see God would we see God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit separately? If we answer yes, then we have created three God’s and deny the Trinity. It’s tricky but I believe the confession is speaking directly to the unity of the Godhead. Gregory of Nyssa wrote on this subject.

Nothing jumps out in paragraph 2

And in paragraph 3, mostly it is that you are including the Filioque clause in stating that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father AND the Son, which of course we do not believe. The question of "subsistence" I'm not sure we agree on - maybe we do. That would take careful definition. This is more the heart, I think, of what you are pursuing, but there are others who can discuss far better with you.

I'll leave it at that for now.

Excellent questions and comments. The Filioque is imbued with political overtones from the start. This kind of dogmatic infighting doesn’t rank high on the scale of importance like other doctrines such as Justification by Faith alone, in Christ alone. So instead of wrangling with hundreds of years of Tradition and politically motivated pronouncements we should allow God breathed scripture to help us come to a conclusion.

“But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:”

We see Christ is sending the Spirit from the Father. This demonstrates the unity of the Father and Son.

“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.”

Again, Orthodox Tradition would seem to make a bigger distinction than scripture does. Christ is said he would send the Holy Spirit.

@truefiction1 I posted a pic of a Buddhist monk who set himself on fire and trueficiton1 wrote the following:

People do die for what they believe in, we agree. Orthodox Christians die in the condition of Love (i.e. in God). If this Buddhist did likewise, then God has granted Him to become a member of His Church. But there is a Church, nonetheless, and it was founded in history by Christ, on the preaching of His Apostles, and the gates of hell have not an will not prevail against Her.

And,

If one becomes Love, as God is Love, then one is of Christ. A profession of faith in Christ is not knowing Christ necessarily. Knowing Love is the only way to Know Christ and to be known by Him.

So I did not say that there is any salvation apart from Christ. I implied that it might be possible that the Buddhist has come to know Christ and be known by Him, by the grace of God. I don't know. God knows, and I trust Him.

The Bible, which is the earliest record of Christian activity and belief…did I mentioned it’s God breathed? Would differ from your Tradition. The Bible teaches that faith in Christ is a gift of God that is required to be saved.

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved”

“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

“How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?”

“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: “

What you should notice is how “you must just love your way into heaven” is not listed. You have put the cart before the horse. Faith produces love and love is defined by faith in Christ. Man is desperately wicked and sin issues forth from the heart. Only by faith in Christ can one please God.

“ But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”

Do you know what Buddhists believe?

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[JM]

A thread about The Gospel

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thank you, JM. I hope that, like you, I do not offend by posting opposing views in a forum not my own. I respectfully request the forgiveness of all in advance if I should step outside of allowed boundaries, and request your correction on matters of etiquette in that case. I promise not to continue in a manner not allowed.

I want to reply point by point - where I have a reply. Some will take more time. And I hope things that are important don't get lost in the shuffle. That often happens if replies become piecemeal. But my experience with very involved matters is that if replies are kept perfectly point by point, it becomes unwieldy and sooner or later posts become too large for blocks of time available, and the conversation usually dies at that point, though no one wants it to stop.

So ... I'll just mention a few simple points which is all I have time for right now.

Respectfully, in some cases I can't explain not because there is no explanation, but because I am relatively new to Orthodoxy, and I sometimes find it difficult to articulate the depths of things, even those which I might understand somewhat by experience or through putting things together. If I can't answer anything in particular and it is needed, I will ask help of others. I have much to learn myself, but there are many who are kind enough to help me as well.

Now, that is not very important.

The matter of God creating masses of humanity for the purpose of damning them to an eternal torment in a created hell for the sole purpose of showing Himself glorious ...

That is an important matter. Do you believe I have stated it correctly? Is that in fact what you would say?

I don't think this can be explained away by the example of Joseph in prison. That was not ultimate torment, nor was it eternal, and it did have the purpose of saving many lives and establishing the kingdom of Israel, through which Christ came, so was even part of God's plan of redemption.

The two are not on the same scale, respectfully. And for a moment putting aside the fact that we cannot judge God (God forbid), do please tell me truly what kind of entity that makes God to be? Would you say such a God IS agape/love? (Of course, He in fact is.) Why would such a supreme and almighty Being as we know Him to be have "need" of such a seemingly petty display just to shore up His own glory? I'm sorry - truly I am - but in my eyes, such a thing is unthinkable to attribute to the God I know.

Man was created not primarily to add to God's glory (nothing can do so), but for the purpose (primarily) of being in loving relationship with Him. That includes worshiping and glorifying Him - how could it not, when He is so supremely worthy? But we don't add to His glory in that way, and He never needed us or anything else to do so. I hope this makes sense?

Oh, and one point especially. You mentioned something about getting "favor" with God through good works. That may be part of the system of the Catholic Church - I cannot say for absolute surety, but it is not so in Orthodoxy. We don't and can't earn anything from God in regards to our salvation.

I don't know if you are a monergist or not? But we believe that man cooperates with God in our salvation. We do not believe God simply acts on a man without his will (of course, most Christians don't believe that either). Our good works are a natural result of our faith. If we have true faith in God, we will have good works. These do bring glory to God, and they can further benefit others. But the chief benefit to ourselves is that we are changed. For example, by giving to others, we learn to be unselfish. In the process, we begin to put to death those deeds of the flesh born out of selfishness. We become more like Christ. We are slowly healed of the wounds our past sins of selfishness created in our souls. In this way, our good deeds draw us closer to God, and are a part of the process of our salvation. They are not a "payment" to God in any form - we cannot pay God. But they act somewhat more like medicine to our souls. This is how we view "good works".

I think this is all I can write for now. I've gone as quickly as I could type, so please forgive me if in my haste I have been less than tactful at any point. Thank you again for your willingness to address my questions and comments. God be with you, my brother.

 

[truefiction1]

How is it that I knew how you would respond to my post even as I was writing it? It is because I too know Scripture. I do have some knowledge of Buddhist beliefs and practices also, I'm not here to defend that. An attack against Holy Tradition is an attack against the unity of the Body of Christ. That unity is a unity of Love and the work of the Holy Spirit. I'll be inclined to answer your attacks in the same way that you seek to justify yours: by Scripture. The outcome, however, will be up to your readiness to hear and see God in Scripture. This readiness, as we are told in Scripture (2 Peter 3:16) and by the fathers, is determined by our degree of personal purity of heart (Matthew 5:8) (Mark 4:9). Holy Tradition is the Life of the Holy Spirit in the Body of Christ, purifying our hearts through our participation in that Life -- and yes, this is on the basis of faith. We read the same Word of God that you do (or at least we hope so), we just don't draw the same conclusions. Still, Scriptural passages, generally free of any commentary from me, is what You will get.

Carry on then.

 

[truefiction1]

I posted a pic of a Buddhist monk who set himself on fire and trueficiton1 wrote the following:



And,



The Bible, which is the earliest record of Christian activity and belief…did I mentioned it’s God breathed? Would differ from your Tradition. The Bible teaches that faith in Christ is a gift of God that is required to be saved.

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved”

“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

“How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?”

“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: “

What you should notice is how “you must just love your way into heaven” is not listed. You have put the cart before the horse. Faith produces love and love is defined by faith in Christ. Man is desperately wicked and sin issues forth from the heart. Only by faith in Christ can one please God.

“ But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”

Do you know what Buddhists believe?

Yours in the Lord,

jm

"if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." (1 Corinthians 13:2)

"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder." (James 2:19)

"…for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus." (Romans 2:14-16)

"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." (1 Corinthians 13:13)

 

[~Anastasia~]

I think I have basically answered your question about those who have not heard the Gospel in another thread. Please remember - we do not presume to answer God's judgement on anyone. Not that person who has never heard the Gospel, nor our neighbor who claims to be a Christian. (Of course, we accept the claim of any who claim Christ and call them brother, but at the same time, please understand that only God sees the heart and so in every case it is God who will judge, and we never, never usurp that by saying this person will be saved, and that one will not.) Indeed, there is no salvation apart from Christ. We just don't restrict how God may or may not do that, just as we don't presume to know His judgement on anyone.

But as far as the Filioque, this is not from the Orthodox Church, but a simple observation from myself. We say the Son is eternally begotten of the Father, begotten before all ages. Likewise, the procession of the Holy Spirit is eternal, in the same sense. Just as we do not point to the Incarnation as the "beginning" of Christ, because it is a moment in time, I think we cannot say that Christ sending the Holy Spirit to the body of believers after His ascension, because it takes place at a fixed point in time and is clearly NOT the origin of the Holy Spirit, can be used to argue a double-procession from both the Father and Son. It's apples and oranges - not even close to the same activity.

 

[hedrick]

I think we have to ask what God’s glory means. Calvin certainly said that some are damned to show God’s glory. (I’m doing this from memory, so my wording could be off.) It’s easy to read that and envision God sitting up in the clouds gleefully torturing people.

But is that what Calvin meant? Calvin never really tried to explain why God set things up the way he did, nor does any other Christian tradition.

My understanding is that when we see him face to face and understand what is really going on, we will see that what he has done has good reason, and thus that even though it’s hard to understand, even damnation has a good reason. I.e. is to his glory. So I see this as statement about trusting that God is doing things for good reason, not God being sadistic.

 

[hedrick]

Calvinists also don’t generally believe that “God simply acts on a man without his will.”

Sometimes the way we think and talk of things can sound impersonal. I think that’s a mistake, and that Calvin didn’t intend things that way. Rather, the core insight of Calvinism is that we are unable to do anything, even respond to an offer of salvation, unless God is first working on us to convert us. That isn’t acting on a person without his will, but rather doing things to change our will.

Normally God doesn’t do this like heart surgery. You know, knock the person out, and stick his hands in to change his heart. Normally God acts through normal means, doing things that actually get the person to change. Even Paul — about as dramatic an example as we have of God changing someone — changed because of an experience given by God. He didn’t just wake up one morning Christian because God had done heart surgery while he was asleep. God gave him an experience that changed him. Note that I’m not denying that there is an interior activity of the Holy Spirit, but even that, I think, is normally an experience that changes us.

I’m not convinced that Calvinists differ from others in their understanding of how people come to God, if you look from a human view at how things happened, and why people changed. I think the difference is in how we understand God as working. Both of us believe that people are changed through hearing the Word, seeing other Christians’ lives, and the activity of the Holy Spirit. However Calvinists think that God knows and intends specific people to be changed by those things, while non-Calvinists think he makes these things available to everyone and accepts those who respond in the right way.

The Calvin scholar John Leith believed Calvin’s motivation wasn’t the glory of God so much as the understanding that everything that happens is a gift from God, ultimately intended for our good. That moved him in the direction of seeing even evil people and their deeds as part of God’s plan, and not something that just happened because God didn’t get through to certain people.

 

[JM]

Great stuff folks! I look forward to reading it more carefully over the next few days.

Yours in the Lord

 

[~Anastasia~]

Calvinists also don’t generally believe that “God simply acts on a man without his will.”

I'm looking forward to more input on this. I actually didn't think they did either, when I wrote my post, but I double-checked the SOP to make sure I wasn't out of line, and refreshed myself on TULIP while there and - some folks could take it that way. But I never actually thought that is what Calvinists believe?

Sometimes the way we think and talk of things can sound impersonal. I think that’s a mistake, and that Calvin didn’t intend things that way. Rather, the core insight of Calvinism is that we are unable to do anything, even respond to an offer of salvation, unless God is first working on us to convert us. That isn’t acting on a person without his will, but rather doing things to change our will.

I don't think Orthodox would say anything different - that one must be drawn by God is explicit within Scripture. Though we might say the invitation is wider, perhaps, than some others may believe.

Normally God doesn’t do this like heart surgery. You know, knock the person out, and stick his hands in to change his heart. Normally God acts through normal means, doing things that actually get the person to change. Even Paul — about as dramatic an example as we have of God changing someone — changed because of an experience given by God. He didn’t just wake up one morning Christian because God had done heart surgery while he was asleep. God gave him an experience that changed him. Note that I’m not denying that there is an interior activity of the Holy Spirit, but even that, I think, is normally an experience that changes us.

I know there is some disagreement between Orthodox and Presbyterians about how God acts within the world (though I believe He acts in many ways) but certainly it is through some action - whether outside an individual by means of others or circumstances, or inside by means of the action of the Holy Spirit, angels, etc. I would agree that it is not simply God performing a surgical-type change upon a person. Not that He couldn't, but I know of no case offhand in which He has, and I would not consider it a normal, expected action of God.

I’m not convinced that Calvinists differ from others in their understanding of how people come to God, if you look from a human view at how things happened, and why people changed. I think the difference is in how we understand God as working. Both of us believe that people are changed through hearing the Word, seeing other Christians’ lives, and the activity of the Holy Spirit. However Calvinists think that God knows and intends specific people to be changed by those things, while non-Calvinists think he makes these things available to everyone and accepts those who respond in the right way.

That I suppose is the heart of it. I can't help but see a despondency and pointlessness to all of human history in that case though. If God simply decided in advance who would be saved - why put mankind through the torture of millennia of playing things out? Yes, we may see in the end how right God was. I could accept that. But what I cannot accept are human beings created with absolutely never any chance whatsoever to come to God or choose good. Or rather - I can even accept that. But I cannot accept what that implies about God. That I cannot ever compromise upon, because it maligns His character. I grew up seeing and being taught that kind of God, and it was a truly life-changing experience to me to see things differently, without such an overlay of both a God who created mankind to be damned, as well as demanding satisfaction through suffering in payment for sin.

But I will say, we appear to agree on much. I briefly browsed the forums here, and found many basic statements I would certainly agree with. I think efforts to paint all beliefs as "essentially the same" are misguided ecumenism, but at the same time, I do agree with and applaud sincere efforts to find common ground and affirm what IS true between us.

The Calvin scholar John Leith believed Calvin’s motivation wasn’t the glory of God so much as the understanding that everything that happens is a gift from God, ultimately intended for our good. That moved him in the direction of seeing even evil people and their deeds as part of God’s plan, and not something that just happened because God didn’t get through to certain people.

Now the basis of that I can certainly agree with. I have come to understand that everything that comes to us, even trials, difficulties, or things that seem bad in the worst way - are all gifts from God, if we will but receive them. Everything works for the sake of our salvation, but we are capable of either acting upon it and benefiting from it, or of ignoring it and losing the opportunity, and often even of misusing it and turning it to our destruction as well. (Though sometimes God is quite merciful, redeeming our errors over and over for our benefit - but we ought not presume upon that.)

Thanks for the reply, Hedrick.

 

[JM]

The matter ofGod creating masses of humanity for the purpose of damning them to an eternal torment in a created hell for the sole purpose of showing Himself glorious ...

That’s kind of what I wrote but I must’ve been unclear. God doesn’t gain glory from creation, rather, mankind was created to worship. I want to restate that your position doesn’t let God off the hook for creating people He foreknew would never be saved. The only way around this is to claim middle knowledge (a philosophical opinion) or universalism. As I understand it universalism was a big problem for the Eastern churches at one time but I could be wrong. We are now into the subject of reprobation.

Webster’s Dictionary of 1828 defines reprobation thusly;
REPROBA”TION,n. [L. reprobatio.]

1. The act of disallowing with detestation, or of expressing extreme dislike.

2. The act of abandoning or state of being abandoned to eternal destruction.

When a sinner is so hardened as to feel no remorse or misgiving of conscience, it is considered as a sign of reprobation.

3. A condemnatory sentence; rejection.

Set a brand of reprobation on clipped poetry and false coin.

Biblically speaking, reprobation should be understood as the justice of God toward the wicked, keeping in mind thatall we are ever owed isjustice. Salvation is a free gift to the undeserving sinner.The only acceptance we have with God is in Christ Jesus. Outside of Christ there is no salvation, no offering for our sin and no mediator between God and mankind. Those who God shows mercy to will be saved from their just penalty.

God’s determination to destroy the wicked.


And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.(Gen 6:5-7)


God’s justice toward wicked sinners due to their sin.


For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it. (Gen 19:13)


God raised up Pharaoh with the purpose of destroying him, God showing His power over the wicked, so that it would be “declared throughout all the earth.”


And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth. (Exo 9:16)


Without Christ the continued wickedness of sinners sparks God’s righteous anger toward them.


Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?(Deu31:17)


God only forgives those who belong to Him through Jesus Christ our covenant head. Eli’s house was not to be forgiven even if they followed the Law.


And therefore I have sworn unto the house of Eli, that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be purged with sacrifice nor offering for ever.(1Sa 3:14)


Those in Christ, the “Lamb slain before the foundation of world,” are not viewed as wicked sinners. Their sins have been forgiven because of Jesus Christ who is our surety. Surety means our “security or safety.” (Webster’s 1828)


God is angry with the reprobate.


God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day. (Psa7:11)


Pharaohwas created with a purpose to “to show my power” that it would be declared all over the world. We see the “wicked” were “made” for the “day of evil.”


The LORDhathmade all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. (Pro 16:4)


The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. (Psa11:5)


God owes us nothing. That is the foundation of Gospel grace. The best we can expect is justice and for those who the “Son chooses to reveal himself” will received grace because of Jesus Christ. Those who remain in the flesh will be “destroyed.”


Because they regard not the works of the LORD, nor the operation of his hands, he shall destroy them, and not build them up.(Psa 28:5)


We often forget how the Gospel, not only saves, but hardens the hearts of reprobate sinners. This is the case in Isaiah 6 where the Prophet is sent to “make the heart of this people fat”to condemn them “lest they see with their eyes, and hear” and be “converted and be healed.” Isaiah is preaching to them for their continued reprobation.


And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,(Isa 6:9-11)


The Lord lead Egypt astray. This is divine reprobation.


The LORD hath mingled a perverse spirit in the midst thereof: and they have caused Egypt to err in every work thereof, as a drunken man staggereth in his vomit. (Isa19)


Those Lord actively set out to close the eye of those He rejected. The “Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes.”


Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink. For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. (Isa 29:9-12)


The Lord our God does in fact reject people for salvation.


Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them. (Jer 6:30)


The Prophet gives instructions not to pray for the reprobation.


Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.(Jer7:16)


Christ approves of the ministry of Isaiah and continues in the same vain, preaching the Gospel to call the elect while also reprobating and hardening the hearts of the rest of humanity.


And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.(Mat 13:14-15)


Not everyone who hears the Gospel is given the ability to understanding it. The result is a further hardening of the sinner against God.


And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.(Luk 8:10)


The reprobate will not understand the Gospel only Christ’s sheep will believe.


But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.(Joh 10:26)


God is described in the Old and New Testaments as the divine potter who does what He likes with His creation. The Bible teaches that God created “vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.” That is divine reprobation.


Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: (Rom 9:21-22)


The elect will obtain salvation in Christ by the power and work of the Holy Spirit. The rest will be “blinded.”Literally this means the“rest” were literally hardened against God.


What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (Rom11:7)


The biblical text teaches that God will“send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.”Believing this lie was to make sure they were“damned.” This echoes the events that took place in Isaiah 19 where God lead Egypta stray.


And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.(2Th 2:11-12)

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.(Jud 1:4)

 

[JM]

Divine reprobation is biblical doctrine, albeit, a difficult one. All doctrine should humble us and make us look to Jesus Christ alone for salvation bringing to light our helplessness and hopelessness without Him.

I don't think this can be explained away by the example of Joseph in prison. That was not ultimate torment, nor was it eternal, and it did have the purpose of saving many lives and establishing the kingdom of Israel, through which Christ came, so was even part of God's plan of redemption.The two are not on the same scale, respectfully.

I hope I explained it more clearly.

And for a moment putting aside the fact that we cannot judge God (God forbid), do please tell me truly what kind of entity that makes God to be?

A biblical one. (hehe couldn’t resist, sorry) I believe we view fallen man differently. As I pointed out above the natural mind is at enmity against God and is not subject to the law of God. That means God is acting justly against those who hate him. The whole passage about loving thy neighbour is drawn from the Old Testament and means simply to treat your enemy lawfully, which, God always does. Man is not a neutral creature but one that hates God until the Holy Spirit regenerates the heart. This is what is meant by “born from above.”

HimhathGod exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. (Acts 5)


“granted repentance unto life”


When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, ThenhathGod also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. (Acts 11)


Lydia, dead in sin and unable to respond to the spiritual offer of the Gospel was granted repentance. The revealed word of God demonstrates in Acts 5 that Israel was also “given” repentance.

A consistent doctrine cannot be maintained by the Traditionalism.


And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. (Acts 16)

Due to sin we are called by Christ and “believed through grace:”


And when he was disposed to pass intoAchaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace: (Acts 18)


Look at any Greekgrammarand you’ll find that “grace” and “faith” are summed up by “and that not of yourselves.”Both graceandfaith are given by God.


For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph2)


We are given grace and faith on behalf of Christ and Christ alone.


For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; (Phil1:29)


Repentance is given by God.


In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. (2 Tim 2)

Would you say such a God IS agape/love? (Of course, He in fact is.) Why would such a supreme and almighty Being as we know Him to be have "need" of such a seemingly petty display just to shore up His own glory? I'm sorry - truly I am - but in my eyes, such a thing is unthinkable to attribute to the God I know.

I would say God has many attributes including love, justice and wrath being three of them. God is also jealous. I would say God has more dimensions of character than love only.

Man was created not primarily to add to God's glory (nothing can do so), but for the purpose (primarily) of being in loving relationship with Him. That includes worshiping and glorifying Him - how could it not, when He is so supremely worthy? But we don't add to His glory in that way, and He never needed us or anything else to do so. I hope this makes sense?

I understand your point. Just to clarify, God does not gain glory from creation, but creation rightfully glorifies God. I think we are in agreement here but we are stating it differently. How is loving God not glorifying to Him?

Oh, and one point especially. You mentioned something about getting "favor" with God through good works. That may be part of the system of the Catholic Church - I cannot say for absolute surety, but it is not so in Orthodoxy. We don't and can't earn anything from God in regards to our salvation.

Good and I’m happy you posted that so clearly.

I don't know if you are a monergist or not? But we believe that man cooperates with God in our salvation. We do not believe God simply acts on a man without his will (of course, most Christians don't believe that either). Our good works are a natural result of our faith. If we have true faith in God, we will have good works. These do bring glory to God, and they can further benefit others. But the chief benefit to ourselves is that we are changed. For example, by giving to others, we learn to be unselfish. In the process, we begin to put to death those deeds of the flesh born out of selfishness. We become more like Christ. We are slowly healed of the wounds our past sins of selfishness created in our souls. In this way, our good deeds draw us closer to God, and are a part of the process of our salvation. They are not a "payment" to God in any form - we cannot pay God. But they act somewhat more like medicine to our souls. This is how we view "good works".

How is it that I knew how you would respond to my post even as I was writing it?

I perceive you are a prophet?

It is because I too know Scripture.

You quoted scripture without adding a comment or context and in a manner known as eisegesis.

Carry on then.

10-4

I think I have basically answered your question about those who have not heard the Gospel in another thread. Please remember - we do not presume to answer God's judgement on anyone. Not that person who has never heard the Gospel, nor our neighbor who claims to be a Christian. (Of course, we accept the claim of any who claim Christ and call them brother, but at the same time, please understand that only God sees the heart and so in every case it is God who will judge, and we never, never usurp that by saying this person will be saved, and that one will not.) Indeed, there is no salvation apart from Christ. We just don't restrict how God may or may not do that, just as we don't presume to know His judgement on anyone.

But as far as the Filioque, this is not from the Orthodox Church, but a simple observation from myself. We say the Son is eternally begotten of the Father, begotten before all ages. Likewise, the procession of the Holy Spirit is eternal, in the same sense. Just as we do not point to the Incarnation as the "beginning" of Christ, because it is a moment in time, I think we cannot say that Christ sending the Holy Spirit to the body of believers after His ascension, because it takes place at a fixed point in time and is clearly NOT the origin of the Holy Spirit, can be used to argue a double-procession from both the Father and Son. It's apples and oranges - not even close to the same activity.

God has already judged sin as sin. God the Father loves Jesus Christ and those in Him, those outside of Christ the Father’s wrath still abides…

The Bible teaches us that sin kills, we are dead in sin, can do nothing to be saved and that the Gospel is hidden from us until revealed to us by God.


At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no manknoweththe Son, but the Father; neitherknowethany man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. (Matt 11:25-27)


And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.


But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. (Matt 13:10-11, 16)


The free will tradition gives too much credit to man in the flesh.“for flesh and blood hath not revealed it…”


The truth of the Gospel is revealed to us.


He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, SimonBarjona: for flesh and bloodhath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. (Matt16)


And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.(Luke 8:10)


In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight. (Luke 10:21)


The Holy Spirit draws sinners to Christ for salvation.


All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6)


The biblical quotations above demonstrates how the Holy Spirit gives us hearing, learning and an explanation of the parables. Now we read how“every man” “that hath heard” will be “raised” up for salvation.


No man can come to me, except the Father whichhathsent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore thathathheard, andhathlearned of the Father, cometh unto me. (John 6)


The Bible teaches that only those given the ability by the Holy Spirit will come to faith in Christ.


But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. (John 6)


God calls His people, not everyone to believe.


To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them. (John 10:3-6)


Speaking to national Israel Christ tells them He has other sheep, Gentile sheep, that He will call. God’s calling under the new covenant of grace is not based along ethnic lines.


And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. (John 10)


You cannot believe unless you are one of Christ’s sheep.


But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. (John 10)


The Gospel is spiritual. That is why you must be called to believe in Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit, that is the only way to discern the Gospel.


But the natural manreceivethnot the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1Cor2)

If spiritual truth is given us by the Spirit of God how can those who don’t have the Spirit be saved?

Gotta run.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[hedrick]

That I suppose is the heart of it. I can't help but see a despondency and pointlessness to all of human history in that case though. If God simply decided in advance who would be saved - why put mankind through the torture of millennia of playing things out? Yes, we may see in the end how right God was. I could accept that. But what I cannot accept are human beings created with absolutely never any chance whatsoever to come to God or choose good. Or rather - I can even accept that. But I cannot accept what that implies about God. That I cannot ever compromise upon, because it maligns His character. I grew up seeing and being taught that kind of God, and it was a truly life-changing experience to me to see things differently, without such an overlay of both a God who created mankind to be damned, as well as demanding satisfaction through suffering in payment for sin.

The question for me is whether you can avoid saying that God actually intends what happens, other than by denying God’s omnipotence.

I assume God doesn't just have it in for certain people. There are Biblical passages saying he wants everyone to be saved. But still, God chose to create a world in which not everyone is saved, and if he has middle knowledge (i.e. understands what will be the result of various actions) then he understands the implications of what he does and doesn't do. It's hard to avoid the conclusion that he is responsible for what happens, in a certain sense.

The attempts to avoid it I've seen either

* assume that in the end human actions have some intrinsic unpredictability; this denies God's omniscience
* refuse to draw logical conclusions; this is the Lutheran perspective

Both of these alternatives have something to be said for it.

 

[truefiction1]

As an Orthodox Christian you must realize that message of the early church is viewed through the layered context of history. For example, the simplicity of the Gospel found in the New Testament text is seen through the lens of Eastern Orthodox interpretation and that interpretation has been influenced by Eastern Philosophy. What I would like to do is just take a moment to demonstrate how Reformed, Evangelical, Baptists, even some Roman Catholic view the Gospel. We have many ideas about what a person has to do to get to heaven. Some believe we must follow the “Golden Rule,” and do good deeds, attend church services to outwardly demonstrate our faith and gain some kind of favour with God. The underlying assumption is that we are basically good people who need healing. But is this true?

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

The Bible repeatedly states that God has given mankind a holy, universal Law, that is written on our hearts and our conscience bears witness to this Law. This Law is revealed and summarized in the Ten Commandments. When we look at God’s Law, we must understand that we have all sinned in some way or another; remember, you don’t have to break all Ten to be guilty of breaking the Law. The Bible warns, “For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.”

“… it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” Hebrews 9:27

Let’s look at a few of the Commandments and see how we fare:

“You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.” Have you ever taken God’s name in vain? If you have, you are a blasphemer and can not enter the Kingdom of God.

“Honour your father and mother.” Have you always honoured your parents in a respectful manner? In a way that God would consider honouring?

“You shall not steal.” Have you ever taken something that didn’t belong to you (irrespective of its value)? What do you call someone who takes something that doesn’t belong to them? A thief – You cannot enter God’s Kingdom.

“You shall not bear false witness.” Have you ever told a lie? Just one? What do you call someone who told a lie? A liar. The Bible warns that all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire.

You and I are guilty of sinning against God by breaking His Law, and because we have a conscience, we have sinned “with knowledge.” Isn’t it true that when you steal, lie, etc. you know that it’s wrong? Does the fact that you have sinned against God bother you? The punishment for breaking God’s Law is Hell. Eternal Death.

“Almost every natural man that hears of hell, flatters himself that he shall escape it; he depends upon himself for his own security; he flatters himself in what he has done, in what he is now doing, or what he intends to do. Every one lays out matters in his own mind how he shall avoid damnation, and flatters himself that he contrives well for himself, and that his schemes will not fail.[1]”

WHAT MUST YOU DO TO BE SAVED FROM THE PENALTY OF BREAKING GOD’S LAW?

There is good news, there is a GOSPEL. God the Father has given us a mediator in Jesus Christ who is the incarnation of God. Jesus took upon Himself man’s nature, becoming subject to the Law of God, and perfectly obeying the Law in thought and deed for His entire lifetime on earth. While on earth Christ took the sins of His people upon Himself, and suffering the punishment due to all their sins paid the penalty by dying on the Cross, “…for the wages of sin is death.”

By dying in place of His people Jesus Christ became the mediator between God and man and revived in His people the righteousness, holiness and true knowledge lost as a consequence of sin.

As we find ourselves before a holy God we are convicted for breaking His righteous Law. The Holy Spirit moves in the soul to bring us to acknowledge our guilt and brokenness before God and His righteousness. We come to hate sin and find Jesus Christ precious. The Holy Spirit convinces the broken sinner of the shamefulness of sin and then brings the offender to a place where they can, “repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.”

If you feel the weight of sin on your heart and have come to see the blackness of your soul in the light of God’s Law…if you have been brought to a place where you dread the judgement of the trice holy God, BELIEVE THE GOSPEL! If you believe that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for your sins the Bible assures us that, “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”


__________________________________________________

[1] quote taken from a sermon by Jonathan Edwards titled, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.”

What part of this, other than the erroneous idea that the perspective of the Church has been corrupted by Eastern philosphy, does not accurately express a significant part of the Tradition of the Church? In my reading of your descriptions here of Christian life, I find them to be both orthodox and Biblical. Though it must be realized that what you've described is merely a part of the Christian life, and doesn't represent that life in its fullness by any means.

 

[truefiction1]

I perceive you are a prophet?

If you had said "sinner" rather than prophet, you would have plainly spoken the truth about what your perception is. I plainly say that your perception is correct: I am a great sinner.

You quoted scripture without adding a comment or context and in a manner known as eisegesis.

Yes, sort of like what is done in this example: "Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

 

[truefiction1]

That’s kind of what I wrote but I must’ve been unclear. God doesn’t gain glory from creation, rather, mankind was created to worship. I want to restate that your position doesn’t let God off the hook for creating people He foreknew would never be saved. The only way around this is to claim middle knowledge (a philosophical opinion) or universalism. As I understand it universalism was a big problem for the Eastern churches at one time but I could be wrong. We are now into the subject of reprobation.

Webster’s Dictionary of 1828 defines reprobation thusly;
REPROBA”TION,n. [L. reprobatio.]

1. The act of disallowing with detestation, or of expressing extreme dislike.

2. The act of abandoning or state of being abandoned to eternal destruction.

When a sinner is so hardened as to feel no remorse or misgiving of conscience, it is considered as a sign of reprobation.

3. A condemnatory sentence; rejection.

Set a brand of reprobation on clipped poetry and false coin.

Biblically speaking, reprobation should be understood as the justice of God toward the wicked, keeping in mind thatall we are ever owed isjustice. Salvation is a free gift to the undeserving sinner.The only acceptance we have with God is in Christ Jesus. Outside of Christ there is no salvation, no offering for our sin and no mediator between God and mankind. Those who God shows mercy to will be saved from their just penalty.

God’s determination to destroy the wicked.


And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.(Gen 6:5-7)


God’s justice toward wicked sinners due to their sin.


For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it. (Gen 19:13)


God raised up Pharaoh with the purpose of destroying him, God showing His power over the wicked, so that it would be “declared throughout all the earth.”


And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth. (Exo 9:16)


Without Christ the continued wickedness of sinners sparks God’s righteous anger toward them.


Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?(Deu31:17)


God only forgives those who belong to Him through Jesus Christ our covenant head. Eli’s house was not to be forgiven even if they followed the Law.


And therefore I have sworn unto the house of Eli, that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be purged with sacrifice nor offering for ever.(1Sa 3:14)


Those in Christ, the “Lamb slain before the foundation of world,” are not viewed as wicked sinners. Their sins have been forgiven because of Jesus Christ who is our surety. Surety means our “security or safety.” (Webster’s 1828)


God is angry with the reprobate.


God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day. (Psa7:11)


Pharaohwas created with a purpose to “to show my power” that it would be declared all over the world. We see the “wicked” were “made” for the “day of evil.”


The LORDhathmade all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. (Pro 16:4)


The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. (Psa11:5)


God owes us nothing. That is the foundation of Gospel grace. The best we can expect is justice and for those who the “Son chooses to reveal himself” will received grace because of Jesus Christ. Those who remain in the flesh will be “destroyed.”


Because they regard not the works of the LORD, nor the operation of his hands, he shall destroy them, and not build them up.(Psa 28:5)


We often forget how the Gospel, not only saves, but hardens the hearts of reprobate sinners. This is the case in Isaiah 6 where the Prophet is sent to “make the heart of this people fat”to condemn them “lest they see with their eyes, and hear” and be “converted and be healed.” Isaiah is preaching to them for their continued reprobation.


And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,(Isa 6:9-11)


The Lord lead Egypt astray. This is divine reprobation.


The LORD hath mingled a perverse spirit in the midst thereof: and they have caused Egypt to err in every work thereof, as a drunken man staggereth in his vomit. (Isa19)


Those Lord actively set out to close the eye of those He rejected. The “Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes.”


Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink. For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. (Isa 29:9-12)


The Lord our God does in fact reject people for salvation.


Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them. (Jer 6:30)


The Prophet gives instructions not to pray for the reprobation.


Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.(Jer7:16)


Christ approves of the ministry of Isaiah and continues in the same vain, preaching the Gospel to call the elect while also reprobating and hardening the hearts of the rest of humanity.


And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.(Mat 13:14-15)


Not everyone who hears the Gospel is given the ability to understanding it. The result is a further hardening of the sinner against God.


And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.(Luk 8:10)


The reprobate will not understand the Gospel only Christ’s sheep will believe.


But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.(Joh 10:26)


God is described in the Old and New Testaments as the divine potter who does what He likes with His creation. The Bible teaches that God created “vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.” That is divine reprobation.


Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: (Rom 9:21-22)


The elect will obtain salvation in Christ by the power and work of the Holy Spirit. The rest will be “blinded.”Literally this means the“rest” were literally hardened against God.


What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (Rom11:7)


The biblical text teaches that God will“send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.”Believing this lie was to make sure they were“damned.” This echoes the events that took place in Isaiah 19 where God lead Egypta stray.


And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.(2Th 2:11-12)

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.(Jud 1:4)

"so that they are without excuse." (Romans 1:20)

 

[JM]

Hey folks, just checking in. I'm reading Lossky's Orthodox Theology: An Intro. Excellent work. Lossky is really hitting a stride in the chapter on Original Sin.

What part of this, other than the erroneous idea that the perspective of the Church has been corrupted by Eastern philosphy, does not accurately express a significant part of the Tradition of the Church? In my reading of your descriptions here of Christian life, I find them to be both orthodox and Biblical. Though it must be realized that what you've described is merely a part of the Christian life, and doesn't represent that life in its fullness by any means.

Specifically?

The Iconophiles found a champion in John of Damascus (645/676 – 749) who offered a polemic for the use of images. Cannon describes John as one of the few strong theologians of the 8th century, not in the same class as Augustine of Hippo, but without equal in the West for the time period. Using a philosophical framework of categories and causes borrowed from Aristotle John of Damascus argued the Second Commandment was abrogated by the Incarnation of Christ. “If one accepted this vocabulary and Aristotelian framework, then devotion to visual images in Christianity was safe.” (MacCulloch, page 448) The Greek church essentially changed the language which framed the debate over images from art to theology. Sources listed on my blog​

Yes, sort of like what is done

Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[truefiction1]

Specifically?

The Iconophiles found a champion in John of Damascus (645/676 – 749) who offered a polemic for the use of images. Cannon describes John as one of the few strong theologians of the 8th century, not in the same class as Augustine of Hippo, but without equal in the West for the time period. Using a philosophical framework of categories and causes borrowed from Aristotle John of Damascus argued the Second Commandment was abrogated by the Incarnation of Christ. “If one accepted this vocabulary and Aristotelian framework, then devotion to visual images in Christianity was safe.” (MacCulloch, page 448) The Greek church essentially changed the language which framed the debate over images from art to theology. Sources listed on my blog​

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." (1 John 4:1-3)

Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth." (Exodus 20:4)

"And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly." (Hebrews 9:3-5)


“And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.” (Exodus 25:18-22)

"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).