(Orthodox) questions about fasting, kosher, and meat preparation

[AMM]

Just a couple of questions I thought of today --

(1) why are shellfish permitted during fasting periods? What's the difference between eating shrimp or mussels or lobster and eating chicken? I'm guessing there's some historical or spiritual reason

(2) is there a restriction on the way that animals have to be killed/prepared? Like in Kosher rules, you have to basically make the animal unable to feel pain; it can't die from blunt force trauma, etc.

(3) are there restrictions on what parts of the animal could be eaten? I know blood isn't allowed, but are there other parts of the animal that are not permitted?

(4) how does the blood restriction work on shellfish? As far as I know (and I'm no expert) the blood isn't drained from a snail the same way it is from a chicken. So it's reasonable to assume that shellfish have blood in them still

(5) what if someone accidentally eats blood or another forbidden product from lack of knowledge about the dish or something? Or what if someone eats a dish that has something forbidden in it (like a soup that has coagulated blood) but they just eat the other parts (like just the broth)?

 

[Sam1986]

Ok, i am not Orthodox but what does it matter what goes in your mouth? Did Jesus not say that it matters more what comes out of the mouth?

 

[HTacianas]

Just a couple of questions I thought of today --

(1) why are shellfish permitted during fasting periods? What's the difference between eating shrimp or mussels or lobster and eating chicken? I'm guessing there's some historical or spiritual reason

(2) is there a restriction on the way that animals have to be killed/prepared? Like in Kosher rules, you have to basically make the animal unable to feel pain; it can't die from blunt force trauma, etc.

(3) are there restrictions on what parts of the animal could be eaten? I know blood isn't allowed, but are there other parts of the animal that are not permitted?

(4) how does the blood restriction work on shellfish? As far as I know (and I'm no expert) the blood isn't drained from a snail the same way it is from a chicken. So it's reasonable to assume that shellfish have blood in them still

(5) what if someone accidentally eats blood or another forbidden product from lack of knowledge about the dish or something? Or what if someone eats a dish that has something forbidden in it (like a soup that has coagulated blood) but they just eat the other parts (like just the broth)?

1. Fasting requires abstaining from meat such as beef, etc. In lieu of eating meat fish should be eaten. Shellfish are, or course, fish.

2. No, but cruelty to animals is prohibited.

3. As far as I know, only blood is prohibited.

4. Fish are treated differently than animals such as cows or goats.

5. When it comes to your attention it should be confessed.

 

[HTacianas]

Ok, i am not Orthodox but what does it matter what goes in your mouth? Did Jesus not say that it matters more what comes out of the mouth?

These are not dietary laws, but rules for fasting, with the exception of the restriction against consuming blood.

 

[Sam1986]

These are not dietary laws, but rules for fasting, with the exception of the restriction against consuming blood.

But, who made these rules? Are they Biblical?

 

[Anhelyna]

1. Fasting requires abstaining from meat such as beef, etc. In lieu of eating meat fish should be eaten. Shellfish are, or course, fish.

I was always taught, even as EC, that fish with spines and faces are meat and therefore not eaten during fast periods [ except on some Feasts , e.g. Annunciation , where the Fast is mitigated to allow fish on that day]

 

[HTacianas]

But, who made these rules? Are they Biblical?

Mar 2:20 But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.

The nature of and rules for fasting are established by the Church. The efficacy of fasting is amplified when the Church fasts together, rather than fasting individually. Abstinence from certain foods, but not all foods, is found in the bible, see Daniel 10:3.

What is avoided during fasts have traditionally been taught by monasteries. Monks maintain strict discipline over their bodies and through time have developed lists of certain foods that are beneficial and some that are not.

 

[Sam1986]

I see. Thank you

 

[RobNJ]

Never mind

 

[HTacianas]

I was always taught, even as EC, that fish with spines and faces are meat and therefore not eaten during fast periods [ except on some Feasts , e.g. Annunciation , where the Fast is mitigated to allow fish on that day]

If that is true it is true. Honestly, fasts aren't my strong suit.

 

[~Anastasia~]

For us, fish is permitted during the early part of the Nativity fast, and on certain feast days like the Annunciation during Great Lent. But generally when we aren't allowed meat, we aren't allowed fish either.

I actually didn't know about shellfish being permitted for the first couple of years. (I missed out lol.) But it's because they don't have spines? I suppose biologically speaking, it's akin to eating insects or invertebrates, which wouldn't be properly "meat"

Personally I wouldn't "eat around" blood. But I suppose that's something to talk to one's Confessor about.

 

[~Anastasia~]

But, who made these rules? Are they Biblical?

By the way, fasting was instituted among the Jewish faith before Christ came. The early Church changed the days they fasted, in order to distinguish from Jewish custom and also to commemorate events we do well to remember. I think the Jewish fasting days are Tuesday and Thursday? We fast on Wednesday to commemorate the betrayal, and Friday to commemorate the crucifixion. Every day of the week we have a particular focus. This helps us keep things constantly in mind, and we fast along with those events because they are worth grieving over. Fasting is a discipline of Christianity, to help subdue the flesh, to make us more aware of our dependence on God, to remind us of the hungry (we often combine care of the poor and increased prayer with fasting).

Our fasting is not abstinence from all food, but generally (some days are stricter than others) from meat, fish, dairy, eggs, oil, and wine.

It is Biblical in the sense that Jesus did say we would fast, and expressed His expectation that we do.

I hope that helps.

 

[prodromos]

Ok, i am not Orthodox but what does it matter what goes in your mouth? Did Jesus not say that it matters more what comes out of the mouth?

Fasting is training in discipline, kind of like the regular exercise an athlete performs to prepare for a competition. In our case it is exercise in saying no to little things we enjoy for short periods, so that we are better prepared to say no when big temptations come our way.

We also fast because we remember that Adam's fall came about in part, because of his stomach. He had one rule, don't eat of this one tree, and he failed.

 

[prodromos]

Anything with a backbone is considered as meat for the purpose of the fasts. I suspect that shellfish and other molluscs are acceptable because it is difficult to actually discern any blood in those creatures.
Olive oil and wine are also abstained from on many fasts because they were traditionally kept in animal skins.

 

[buzuxi02]

(1) why are shellfish permitted during fasting periods? What's the difference between eating shrimp or mussels or lobster and eating chicken? I'm guessing there's some historical or spiritual reason

Shellfish and octopus have no blood so they can be eaten. Everything from a blood animal including whats derived from it such as dairy is fasted from. Certain strict fast days one must abstain from wine and oil and eat xerophagy. If its relaxed fish is permitted.
Nothing will happen if you bend or break these rules it's not as if an Orthodox mafia will visit you and firebomb your house or anything.

 

[ArmyMatt]

pretty sure at the time, shellfish wasn't considered the delicacy it is now.

 

[AMM]

This is really interesting. Keep the discussion going haha I'm finding it quite informative. I won't sweat it too much, and I'll just ask my priest about specifics. I guess trying to one-up the Church by being like "oh ho ho, you said no blood but you allow mussels! Well I'll be better than all the saints in 2000 years by avoiding both" isn't really the smartest or must humble thing for me to do

 

[~Anastasia~]

This is really interesting. Keep the discussion going haha I'm finding it quite informative. I won't sweat it too much, and I'll just ask my priest about specifics. I guess trying to one-up the Church by being like "oh ho ho, you said no blood but you allow mussels! Well I'll be better than all the saints in 2000 years by avoiding both" isn't really the smartest or must humble thing for me to do

LOL, no - that's exactly why we don't set our own fasting rules. Well, one reason at least.

I've heard of more than one story where a Confessor told someone to break the fast - publicly and without explanation (think eating a hamburger in the Church hall dinner during Lent!) ... just for the sake of dialing back their pride a bit.

And there are local variations that tend to show up when comparing jurisdictions, since available foods varied over continents, and they tend to keep their traditions. But I know I've been surprised a time or two hearing how others keep the fasts. Best not to worry about it, and "keep our eyes on our own plate".

 

[AMM]

I've heard of more than one story where a Confessor told someone to break the fast - publicly and without explanation (think eating a hamburger in the Church hall dinner during Lent!) ... just for the sake of dialing back their pride a bit.

Ha! I could definitely see myself being given that instruction at some point in my future. I can be... a bit overzealous at times

 

[~Anastasia~]

Ha! I could definitely see myself being given that instruction at some point in my future. I can be... a bit overzealous at times

It's a common ailment among new converts.

We all have to deal with it.