Orthodox Church and the reading of book of Genesis

Joshua G.

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No, just strangely hesitant to automatically believe the worst of people when there is a perfectly reasonable alternative, and cognizant of the fact that burden of proof for showing that the quote is in context doesn't rest with me.

Look, I'm the same way. I hate crap arguments. BUt the reference is right there. google it and read it. No, he is not a monster who HATES Christians. Nor does he come across as a guy who fumes at the site of a Church. But he defintely feels that the idea of God is just as absurd as green martians and that they make our minds soft.

Get off of your high horse, google the freakin' source and if you are so worried about this man getting the short stick then...

read.



it.



my gosh!
 
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Incariol

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Look, I'm the same way. I hate crap arguments. BUt the reference is right there. google it and read it. No, he is not a monster who HATES Christians. Nor does he come across as a guy who fumes at the site of a Church. But he defintely feels that the idea of God is just as absurd as green martians and that they make our minds soft.

Not an opinion I can't see how he came by. He was cited as a geneticist, and being constantly attacked by Christians as a lying, fraudulent hack probably instills a degree of resentment.

Get off of your high horse, google the freakin' source and if you are so worried about this man getting the short stick then...

read.





it.



my gosh!

*frowns* No, it really isn't my responsibility to do other people's homework for them. Why are you acting so angrily? We are merely talking.

I don't like partial quotes either, without reference which this has. Look it up. I actually read the whole thing today thinking it would give more context to the purposeof the text. It did of course. BUt it becomes very very clear that he is not at all soft on religion. He is very much against a belief in God and I am confident he would say as much to your face ifyou asked him because he says that numerous times here. In fact, he expresses that Sagan, a fellow atheist, is much to tolerant on the subject. I could quote you parts, but it would just be quote bombing. Just read it. It's like a 20 minute read. He is not a friend of Christianity by any means and he would readily adn confidently admit that.

Ok, that really is too bad.
 
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jckstraw72

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"Second, to put a correct view of the universe into people's heads we must first get an incorrect view out. People believe a lot of nonsense about the world of phenomena, nonsense that is a consequence of a wrong way of thinking. The primary problem is not to provide the public with the knowledge of how far it is to the nearest star and what genes are made of, for that vast project is, in its entirety, hopeless. Rather, the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth."

read it all here RICHARD LEWONTIN: Billions and Billions of Demons
 
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jckstraw72

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*frowns* No, it really isn't my responsibility to do other people's homework for them.

look, im not trying to be a jerk here, but ive certainly come across this attitude before, and the hypocrisy is glaring. dont be so quick to accuse others of proof-texting and to get defensive if you dont even care enough to do a simple Google search and read for a few minutes. if youre not willing to do any work, then you probably shouldnt be so willing to post about it.
 
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Incariol

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"Second, to put a correct view of the universe into people's heads we must first get an incorrect view out. People believe a lot of nonsense about the world of phenomena, nonsense that is a consequence of a wrong way of thinking. The primary problem is not to provide the public with the knowledge of how far it is to the nearest star and what genes are made of, for that vast project is, in its entirety, hopeless. Rather, the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth."

read it all here RICHARD LEWONTIN: Billions and Billions of Demons

Well, he is obviously incorrect in stating that science is the only begetter of truth. If he had said "truth about the material universe", I might be more inclined to agree with him. But a wholesale claim that only science is truth, period full stop is clearly wrong.

look, im not trying to be a jerk here, but ive certainly come across this attitude before, and the hypocrisy is glaring. dont be so quick to accuse others of proof-texting and to get defensive if you dont even care enough to do a simple Google search and read for a few minutes. if youre not willing to do any work, then you probably shouldnt be so willing to post about it.

*shrug* I'm sorry for that I want to stick by Philosophic burden of proof - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and I'm sorry you think I'm a hypocrite.
 
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jckstraw72

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the problem is that you're acting like this is some academic debate. this is a forum for fellow Orthodox Christians, and i would think our first reaction would be to trust each other to be honest with our posts, even when we disagree, and not immediately assume proof-texting without reading the work in question and being unwilling to look it up to substantiate your claim. and if you do make the claim of proof-texting then the burden is on you to provide the context that shows that the plain meaning of the words is not how they are meant to be understood. i made a claim about evolution employing faulty science and backed it up with my quote - if you want to make the claim of proof-texting then you need to back it up.
 
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Incariol

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the problem is that you're acting like this is some academic debate. this is a forum for fellow Orthodox Christians, and i would think our first reaction would be to trust each other to be honest with our posts, even when we disagree, and not immediately assume proof-texting without reading the work in question and being unwilling to look it up to substantiate your claim. and if you do make the claim of proof-texting then the burden is on you to provide the context that shows that the plain meaning of the words is not how they are meant to be understood. i made a claim and backed it up with my quote - if you want to make the claim of proof-texting then you need to back it up.

...And I agreed with you. Did you not notice?
 
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Protoevangel

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*frowns* No, it really isn't my responsibility to do other people's homework for them.

Why are you acting so angrily? We are merely talking.
Anger? I saw no anger. A little surprise, maybe. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised myself: The quote was clear and not out of context. It does not look like it was Jckstraw who didn't do his due diligence.
 
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Incariol

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Anger? I saw no anger. A little surprise, maybe. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised myself: The quote was clear and not out of context.

I agree. It seemed pretty clear. I simply didn't come to the same conclusion.

It does not look like it was Jckstraw who didn't do his due diligence.

I really don't care. He has posted another quote that explains it, and I've agreed, how much longer were you two planning on berating me for the audacity of being skeptical on a resolved issue where I have conceded the point?
 
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Protoevangel

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I agree. It seemed pretty clear. I simply didn't come to the same conclusion.



I really don't care. He has posted another quote that explains it, and I've agreed, how much longer were you two planning on berating me for the audacity of being skeptical on a resolved issue where I have conceded the point?
Berating? You thought he was angry, I was simply letting you know what he might have seen as surprising, based on your earlier misunderstanding of the context of the quote. I'm not "after you".
 
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rusmeister

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I think this because I know that despite what a random out of context quote would seem to indicate, scientists actually aren't part of some hateful atheistic conspiracy to destroy Christianity.

Or if we are, I, and nobody I know or have spoken to has gotten the memo.

Hi, Incariol,

I'm not going to get into the rest of your argument. I think that it all goes in the wrong directions, relying on science when science is not the ultimate problem and any scientific resolution leaves the larger philosophical and theological issue untouched.

But on this I would say that the charge of conspiracy is a straw man - easy to defeat, because the intelligent Christian will quickly agree that there is no vast human conspiracy - although on the spiritual, specifically demonic level I think we can say that there IS. There ARE forces out to destroy Christian faith in people's hearts, and even some people who DO hate, and DO want to participate in this vast effort. And some of them ARE scientists, although most are merely people who use science as the popular cloak for destroying what they hate. For we DO want to be our own gods.

So while it IS true and we do agree that there is not a conspiracy of most or all scientists, it is not true that there are not a great many people who do in fact use science (the kind generally devoid of a sound philosophical basis) as the pretext to reject faith for themselves and to drive it out of the public square altogether.
 
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Incariol

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Hi, Incariol,

I'm not going to get into the rest of your argument. I think that it all goes in the wrong directions, relying on science when science is not the ultimate problem and any scientific resolution leaves the larger philosophical and theological issue untouched.

But on this I would say that the charge of conspiracy is a straw man - easy to defeat, because the intelligent Christian will quickly agree that there is no vast human conspiracy - although on the spiritual, specifically demonic level I think we can say that there IS. There ARE forces out to destroy Christian faith in people's hearts, and even some people who DO hate, and DO want to participate in this vast effort. And some of them ARE scientists, although most are merely people who use science as the popular cloak for destroying what they hate. For we DO want to be our own gods.

So while it IS true and we do agree that there is not a conspiracy of most or all scientists, it is not true that there are not a great many people who do in fact use science (the kind generally devoid of a sound philosophical basis) as the pretext to reject faith for themselves and to drive it out of the public square altogether.

I completely agree. :thumbsup:
 
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Montalban

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Allusions appear to have been made to the Scopes Monkey Trial. I think this essay by a man who was living at the time to be relevant to the general discussion. When the author is GKC, one of the greatest minds of our time, it becomes downright fascinating. And i think it points to the cause of why we have such firm religious belief in evolution today.

Compulsory Education and the Monkey Trial

Reading GKC always raises one's intellect. I always learn something I didn't know and am forced to think about something new. It keeps me from smugness about what I think I know.

Did you hear about the Irish Sheepdog Trials?
Four were found guilty
 
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Montalban

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I certainly do in science, which is what I think the quote is talking about. On second reading, yes, it does seem more ambiguous. He could be talking about an overall worldview of being against theism, but I think he only means in regards to science.

I think this because I know that despite what a random out of context quote would seem to indicate, scientists actually aren't part of some hateful atheistic conspiracy to destroy Christianity.

Or if we are, I, and nobody I know or have spoken to has gotten the memo.

There are other forms of persuasion, other than direct memo
 
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rusmeister

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Did you hear about the Irish Sheepdog Trials?
Four were found guilty
Is this Daffy Duck talking?
I'm trying to figure out whether to take you seriously or not. The first step toward that would be to see you taking what I say seriously.

I'm not averse to joking; it's just that I'm saying something I think relevant and important, and you appear to dismiss it with nonsense.

I may be completely misunderstanding your intent; if so, I apologize. But that's what it looks like...
 
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Montalban

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Is this Daffy Duck talking?
Daffy duck isn't real!

I'm trying to figure out whether to take you seriously or not. The first step toward that would be to see you taking what I say seriously.
I could just add smilies to direct people to this, but I think most people understand a joke without needing a drummer going 'ta-da-dum' after the punchline
I'm not averse to joking; it's just that I'm saying something I think relevant and important, and you appear to dismiss it with nonsense.
I've dismissed nothing.
 
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rusmeister

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I completely agree. :thumbsup:
Hi, Incariol,
If you do agree, then why waste all the time talking about the science WITHOUT dealing with the overarching philosophical and theological problems with the idea of evolution? It's fine to talk about science,especially if you are a scientist, but a scientist who tries to be scientific without a worldview in which to so be is rather like a worker bee or ant that may be able to do amazing things, but has no idea what it is doing.

It's no good saying there is no conspiracy when there effectively is, (in the terms I described) - you need to address the mass of effort by many scientists and ordinary people who DO use science as a pretext to attack faith, rather than effectively defend them, which is certainly what it looks to me like you have been doing. I would agree that some ideas, actions and words ARE defensible, but one would hardly be able to tell that any are NOT, judging from what you have posted to date.
 
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Montalban

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Often evolutionary 'facts' are interpreted through bias. It can be cultural bias, or gender bias, or other.

Feminists argue that as men’s ideas about gender have changed, so have their interpretations of evolutionary evidences.
Darwin postulated that females are ''coy,'' mating rarely and choosing their mates carefully, presumably betting their odds on the males with the best genes to contribute to their offspring. For their part, males are ''ardent'' and promiscuous, and fight amongst themselves for female partners. Later theories added that males are promiscuous because they have less to lose by making babies - unlike eggs, sperm are plentiful and small. Plus, females usually do most of the work to raise the offspring”
Sex and gender scientists explore a revolution in evolution
See also
http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/report/news/2003/february19/aaassocialselection219.html

“In the mid-nineteenth century, social Darwinists invoked evolutionary biology to argue that a woman was a man whose evolution - both physical and mental - had been arrested in a primitive stage. In this same period, doctors used their authority as scientists to discourage women's attempts to gain access to higher education. Women's intellectual development, it was argued, would proceed only at great cost to reproductive development. As the brain developed, so the logic went, the ovaries shrivel. In the twentieth century, scientists have given modern dress to these prejudices. Arguments for women's different (and inferior) nature have been based on hormonal research, brain lateralization, and sociobiology.?
Londa Schiebinger, “History and Philosophy”, in Sex and Scientific Inquiry, eds. Sandra Harding and Jean F. O'Barr, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1987), p. 26-27.
 
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Montalban

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There's Marxist evolutionary science

“ According to the traditional 'internalist' view of science, scientists make up their minds on scientific issues primarily through reason, argument and evidence. Other factors may be involved, but they should be weeded out.”
David L. Hull, "Activism, Scientists and Sociobiology," 2000

“In Marxism, groups are more important than individuals. Capitalists view nature as competitive, whereas these Marxist critics tend to view it as being much more cooperative.”
Ibid.
 
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Protoevangel

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Allusions appear to have been made to the Scopes Monkey Trial. I think this essay by a man who was living at the time to be relevant to the general discussion. When the author is GKC, one of the greatest minds of our time, it becomes downright fascinating. And i think it points to the cause of why we have such firm religious belief in evolution today.

Compulsory Education and the Monkey Trial

Reading GKC always raises one's intellect. I always learn something I didn't know and am forced to think about something new. It keeps me from smugness about what I think I know.
As always, Chesterton cuts to the heart of the matter with wit and uncommon clarity. :thumbsup:
 
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