Orthodox/Catholic Confusion About Images

[Southern Stoic]

Since I am not an official Christian I can't post this in the Orthodox/Catholic section. I have a history in the Orthodox Faith, but this question is also open to Catholics (and anyone else) as well.

I have some confusion concerning images. If I'm incorrect in any premise (or conclusion), please correct me.
And however I phrase these questions, I mean no offence.

Question #1. It is my understanding that the Church makes a distinction between worship (latreia) and veneration (douleuo). How is this tenable, especially with verses like this:
"But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served (douleuo) those which by nature are not gods." Gal. 4:8?

Question #2. Also, it is often said that the Orthodox/Catholics don't worship images (as pagans worshipped their images), we venerate the icon and the veneration given to the image goes to the person depicted in the image (who is in paradise with Christ). But this is what pagans did. It seems that they did not worship the work of their
own hands (as Deut. 4:28 & Rev. 9:20 indicate). The image was a connection to the deity that they actually worshipped. This seems a lot like icon veneration.
There are those who say that Christianity's saints replaced the (European) pagan idols. And consider that "worship" is a European word that means
"condition of being worthy; honorable." (etymonline.com). Its not worship in the "fear and trembling" Abrahamic sense. European (pagan) worship seems a lot like Orthodox/Catholic veneration.

To sum up: Question #1. How do you justify veneration (douleuo) of icons when the New Testament (Gal. 4:8) seems to frown on such a practice?
Question #2a. How does the veneration of saints differ from the worship of (pagan) idols?
Question #2b. What do you think that the Bible seems to have been wrong about this (the pagans did not actually worship their own handiwork)?

Thank you.

 

[LightBearer]

Hi Southern Stoic,

You may find these links useful and informative:

What the Bible Says About the Veneration of Images
https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/g201410/veneration-of-images/

Should We Worship Images?
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/should-we-worship-images/

Stay safe and well,
LB

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

I'm not sure if this will be the best answer but this explanation from the book "The Law of God" by Archpriest Seraphim Slobodskoi and Susan Price in Chapter 13 about icons might help you :


https://www.amazon.com/Law-God-Stud...=The+Law+of+God&qid=1609581311&s=books&sr=1-1

Also, The Anathemas from The Ecumenical 7th Council of 787 A.D. might help :

NPNF2-14 The Seventh Ecumenical Council. Extracts from the Acts. Session I.

NPNF2-14


• Anathema to the calumniators of the Christians, that is to the image breakers.

• Anathema to those who apply the words of Holy Scripture which were spoken against idols, to the venerable images.

• Anathema to those who do not salute the holy and venerable images.

• Anathema to those who say that Christians have recourse to the images as to gods.

• Anathema to those who call the sacred images idols.

• Anathema to those who knowingly communicate with those who revile and dishonour the venerable images.

• Anathema to those who say that another than Christ our Lord hath delivered us from idols.

• Anathema to those who spurn the teachings of the holy Fathers and the tradition of the Catholic Church, taking as a pretext and making their own the arguments of Arius, Nestorius, Eutyches, and Dioscorus, that unless we were evidently taught by the Old and New Testaments, we should not follow the teachings of the holy Fathers and of the holy Ecumenical Synods, and the tradition of the Catholic Church.

• Anathema to those who dare to say that the Catholic Church hath at any time sanctioned idols.

• Anathema to those who say that the making of images is a diabolical invention and not a tradition of our holy Fathers.


.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Here's some Holy Icons (Shroud of Turin / Sudarium of Oviedo) made from The Original Source :

Shroud of Turin - Wikipedia

Sudarium of Oviedo - Wikipedia

.

 

[HTacianas]

Since I am not an official Christian I can't post this in the Orthodox/Catholic section. I have a history in the Orthodox Faith, but this question is also open to Catholics (and anyone else) as well.

I have some confusion concerning images. If I'm incorrect in any premise (or conclusion), please correct me.
And however I phrase these questions, I mean no offence.

Question #1. It is my understanding that the Church makes a distinction between worship (latreia) and veneration (douleuo). How is this tenable, especially with verses like this:
"But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served (douleuo) those which by nature are not gods." Gal. 4:8?

Question #2. Also, it is often said that the Orthodox/Catholics don't worship images (as pagans worshipped their images), we venerate the icon and the veneration given to the image goes to the person depicted in the image (who is in paradise with Christ). But this is what pagans did. It seems that they did not worship the work of their
own hands (as Deut. 4:28 & Rev. 9:20 indicate). The image was a connection to the deity that they actually worshipped. This seems a lot like icon veneration.
There are those who say that Christianity's saints replaced the (European) pagan idols. And consider that "worship" is a European word that means
"condition of being worthy; honorable." (etymonline.com). Its not worship in the "fear and trembling" Abrahamic sense. European (pagan) worship seems a lot like Orthodox/Catholic veneration.

To sum up: Question #1. How do you justify veneration (douleuo) of icons when the New Testament (Gal. 4:8) seems to frown on such a practice?
Question #2a. How does the veneration of saints differ from the worship of (pagan) idols?
Question #2b. What do you think that the Bible seems to have been wrong about this (the pagans did not actually worship their own handiwork)?

Thank you.

Your answer is found in your Question #2a. The idol worshippers of old created for themselves gods which were not God. Rather than worshipping God, they worshipped things, either physical idols they created, or some other god.

Icons within Christianity are holy things, much like all the holy things, places, etc., of Exodus and Leviticus. Also of the graven images God commanded the Israelites to build, such as the Ark of the Covenant with its cherubim. Those things, the utensils of the altar, the oil of annointing, were given a place of honor in worship, even though they themselves were not worshipped.

We venerate saints for the same reasons. Those saints who have gone on are worthy of the honor we give to them. It does not put them in the place of God and they do not serve as some other god.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

My father passed away over 25 years ago and I still have a picture of him that I will kiss and shed a tear from missing him. That's the idea of veneration.

We also venerate the book containing the Gospels by kissing and bowing or lowering our head, seen below. Same with a cross. There is one quote which I can only paraphrase, "If I make a cross of wood I will kiss it and venerate it. If I separate the pieces of wood, I will use them to cook my dinner."

St John Chrysostom tells us that if one were to meet a priest walking with an Angel, then one should greet the priest first and kiss his hand, since that hand has touched the Body and Blood of Our Lord.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

One other thing that comes to mind, is that if you (like probably 90% of us on CF) are from the US or Canada, we're not accustomed to the idea of "veneration". We look at "socialites" give kisses on each cheek or maybe think of bowing in Asian societies. We're told to give each other a holy kiss, which you'll still see in Middle Eastern cultures. We kiss each other because the other person is also an icon of God.

Icons may also tell a story. My own favorite is Rublev's "Hospitality of Abraham" aka The Old Testament Trinity. The three angels are seated at a table and the overall image is that of a circle. The center and the right angel looking at the left one, forms an image of the Trinity of Christ and the Holy Spirit gazing at the Father. The center angel is dressed in red with a blue overcoat, the usual colors for the humanity (red) and divinity (blue) of Christ. The seated figures of the right and left form the image of a cup, with the center angel blessing a bowl with a piece of bread in front of him. This is representative of the Eucharist. There are still other elements that can be interpreted from the icon but I hope you get the idea. These are Scriptures in images, which is why there is a custom to saying that an icon is written, not painted.