Orthodox beliefs on original sin

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In the thread on the Holy Father reaching out to Orthodox leaders, someone (I believe it was Jeff the Finn), stated that Orthodox don't believe that babies are born in a state of original sin.

I'm a little confused by this. If we are not born in a state of sin, then why do you baptize babies?

Could someone tell me the official Orthodox teaching on original sin?

Thank you!
 
Philip,

I would agree with you in the sense that babies have no culpability in original sin, but I would also say that they are nonetheless in this state. Similar to the way that a baby born in Iraq is born into a violent environment. He or she has no responsibility for that environment, but it is their environment nonetheless.

Is this what you believe, or do you not believe in original sin at all?

I apologize if I am coming across as trying to debate, I'm not. I'm just trying to make sure I understand what you're saying. :)
 
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Philip

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CatholicChristian said:
Is this what you believe, or do you not believe in original sin at all?

I believe in the fallen nature of man. We are born separated from God, a result of the Fall. Given time, we will sin.
 
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MariaRegina

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Dearest Philip:

I was taught that Original Sin was the sin of Adam and Eve.

Original Curse was the result of that first Original Sin. We are cursed with sin, suffering and death.

But were these concepts of Original Curse and Original Sin ever defined at an Ecumenical Council? Are they even mentioned in the Holy Bible?

Your sister in Christ,
Elizabeth
 
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Patristic

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The dichotomy between guilt and consequences is a nice disntinction to attempt to answer the riddle of ancestral sin, but there is still one nagging question that remains. If infants are not born guilty of original sin, but the wages of sin is death, then why do newborn children still die? This is the question that led Blessed Augustine to the conclusion that they must be guilty in some sense.
 
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MariaRegina

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Patristic said:
The dichotomy between guilt and consequences is a nice disntinction to attempt to answer the riddle of ancestral sin, but there is still one nagging question that remains. If infants are not born guilty of original sin, but the wages of sin is death, then why do newborn children still die? This is the question that led Blessed Augustine to the conclusion that they must be guilty in some sense.

Dear Patristic:

The consequences of Original sin are sin, suffering, pain and death.
Adam and Eve were guilty of committing the Original Sin.
We inherit the consequences.

Newborn babies die sometimes because they are born in this fallen world due to the sin of Adam.

Hope this helps!

Your sister in Christ,
Elizabeth
 
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Patristic

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I understand the distinction between consequences and guilt very well, and I believe such a distinction does exist in scripture, but my I don't think such an argument handles the case of infants that well. Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is death. Therefore death is a wage we earn in recompense for our sins. If infants do not commit voluntary sin and they are not guilty of Adam and Eve's transgression, then why do they still die, since death is earned by our sinning?
 
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MariaRegina

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Dear Patristic:

Just a thought - Look at what the First (Original) Sin of Adam did to the human race.

It brought down a curse - the curse of death. While we live, our body is dying. Cells are constantly dying and being replenished, but with time, death will prevail. No one can escape this eventuality.

However, since Christ overcame death, many incorriputible saints give witness that Christ truly did overcome death. Their bodies truly sleep in anticipation of the General Resurrection.

Christ is glorified in His Saints! May He also be glorified in us!
 
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Dear Everyone,

One thing that i really don't like are these pitfalls we Orthodox sometimes fall into with labeling things, ie. Original Sin and Original Curse. For everyone viewing this thread I want to turn your attention to the following link.

After reading, then comment.

http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/scouteris_people.html

In Christ,

Miltiadis
 
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MariaRegina

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http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/scouteris_people.html

The destructive character of sin.

This original oneness and conjuction (συνάφεια) of the universe with God, the symphony (σύμπνοια), so to speak, of all beings with one another was dissolved by sin. Ιn order to understand the unity of the people of God better it is necessary to say a few words about the destructive character of sin. Sin introduced discord and confusion into the created universe. Even the material world undergoes its effects. Sin is understood in the patristic anthropology as being a catastrophe caused-by the free will of intelligent beings. It is a turning away which causes the entire cosmos to break loose from its creator. The primordial vocation was for unity, but sin introduces division.

As a matter of fact sin is a continuous decomposition disorganization and dissolution of the unity created by God. It is a separation and disruption in the harmony οf beings. The author of the Areopagite treatises speaks of sin as "an inharmonious mingling of discordant elements"(20). Thus, in the condition of sin, man is separated from God as well as from his fellow man. This means that, in the final analysis, selfhood and hate are introduced instead of eros for the "other" person. It is in this sense that Jean Ρaul Sartre spoke of the other as "hell" and "sin". "Μy original fall is the existence of the other"(21). The sinful condition implies that man understands himself not as a person in connection with God and other human persons, but as an individual. Under the heavy yoke of time and space the individual man follows his οwn way which leads nowhere. The ideal of "my existence for the other, and the other's existence for me" is understood as being an illusion, or rather as the condition for the exercise of a lie(22). From this perspective man is the being "who is what he is not, and who is not what he is"(23). Ιn the condition of sin the first man, instead of "being with" the other (Heideger's "mit sein"), found himself in a state of absolute isolation "at the east .of the garden of Edem" (Gen.3:24). The words of God addressed to him, "in the sweat of thy face thou shalt eat bread" (Gen.3:l9), describe the human tragedy of opposition to God and separation from Him. Thus, by the free acceptance of sin, the innate connection between man and God was destroyed. And so man, instead of loving God and being His servant, in a world of which he was designated to be prophet, priest and king(24), became an alien and a stranger. Ιn fact sin consists in the limitation of man to his individuality. It is a reduction of the human person within the limits of his οwn existence. Thus through sin man became a stranger to his communion with God, a stranger to his fellowship with the human "other", and even a stranger to himself. Sin, as a decomposition and separation, effects both the disorganisation and the disruption of the human person itself.

The man of sin, in other words, is a divided personality. The original and innate unity of the human person is disrupted and dissolved by sin. Ι cannot find any clearer exposition of this division of the human person than that expounded by Ρaul: "The good that I would Ι do not: but the evil which Ι would not, that Ι do. Νοw if Ι do that Ι would not, it is no more Ι that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me... Ι see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Ο wretched man that Ι am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" (Rom.7:19-24).

Sorry for the smilies: GIGO; I don't know what the webmaster did in that site. LOL
 
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This is also worth making note about on the article that I asked people to read:


Unity in the Holy Spirit (Faith and the Sacraments).

The fact that Christ is present in the midst of His flock in every historical "now" evidently implies that the unity of the people is based, not οn an abstract agreement, but on a direct and personal relationship. This relationship is established through the Ηοly Spirit, by faith and in the Sacraments. "By one Spirit are we all baptized into one body" (1 Cor.l2:13)."We being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread" (l Cor.l0;17). "One body, and one Spirit... One Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Eph. 4:4-5). Thus, by faith and in the Sacraments, Christ assumes in the Holy Spirit our personal existence and permits us to be in communion with Him, i.e. to participate existentially in His οwn life. Ιn this sense the unity in the body of the Church is not a one-side unity, nor is it uncoditionally given, but it implies man's personal affirmation of the personal call of God. The personal involvment of Christ in human destiny calls for our personal existence to be incorporated into His body.

The reconstruction of human existence and the unity of the "new man" are realized at the personal level by the act of acceptance of the life of Christ and especially of the central fact of this unique life, i.e. the death and the resurrection. Therefore, in order to transmit into his οwη ego the unification realized in the Hypostasis of the incarnate Logos, man must accept existentially the άπαξ and for all event of Christ's death and resurrection. "...So many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death. Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that as Christ was raised up from death by glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life" (Rom.6:3-4). Thus, through baptism, life and resurrection; which were achieved by Christ's voluntary death, are realized in the very existence of man. By going through the mystery of Christ's death and resurrection, every believer is clothed in Him. Obviously the death of the believer in baptism is a symbol and an immitation of real death. And although the death is not real but only an image, its consequences are those of a real transcendence of death. Here lies the mystery of the restoration of the human person and of its glory in the Church. Through imitation and a symbolic act man receives the gifts of the resurrection.

It is interesting to recall in this connection the point made by St.Symeon the New Theologian. Although St. Symeon follows the traditional teaching of the Fathers οn sacramental baptism and recognises it as an act of therapy, regeneration and renewal of man, he also speaks of a second baptism which he calls "baptism in the Holy Spirit". This second baptism is a stage in the christian life which insures and maintains the effect of the sacramental baptism. The second baptism affirms the uniqueness and significance of the first. It is, so to speak, a testimony to, or a continuous presence of the gifts provided by the sacramental baptisτn. As a matter of fact this second baptism is nothing other than that repentance which offers to the individual Christian a deeper understanding of his christian consciousness, and a greater awareness of Christ as Lord and Saviour(30). This baptism in the Ηοly Spirit presupposes the personal kenosis of the believer in repentance, and indeed it is the medium for the accomplishment in the Holy Spirit of his final goal, i.e. of deification.

"Display a worthy penitence", argues St. Symeon, "by means of all sorts of deeds and words, that you may draw yourselves the grace of the all-holy Spirit. For this Spirit, when He descends οn you, becomes like a pοοl of light to you, which encompasses you completely in an unutterable manner. As it regenerates you, it changes you from corruptible to incorruptible, from mortal to immortal, from sons of man into Sons of God and gods by adoption and grace"(31).

It is of special interest for our study here to look at the way in which St. Symeon connects baptism in the Spirit with the unity of the people of God. His exposition is basically a synthesis of New Testament material, and the unity of which we are speaking is presented as a trinitarian dwelling. Ιn order to clarify his position St. Symeon uses the image of the house, of the door of the house, and of the key to the door. The key to the door, he explains, is the Ηοly Spirit "because through Him and in Him we are first enlightened in mind. We are purified and illuminated with the light of knowledge; we are baptized from οn high and born anew (cf. Jn. 3:3-5) and made into children of God"(32). The door of the house is the Son Himself , "for, says He, Ι am the door: by me if any man enter in he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture" (Jn.10:7,9)(33). Finally, the house itself is the Father. Christ spoke of this when he said "in my Father's house are many mansions" (Jn.l4:2)(34).

St. Symeon is here engaged in pointing out explicitly that participation in the divine glory is effected in and through the Holy Spirit. He uses this image in order to guide man to a deeper understanding of the significance of baptism in the Spirit. According to him the crucial thing to do is to understand that only in and through the Ηοly Spirit do we know God, do we become His children and partakers of His ineffable light. It is precisely this dwelling of the Holy Spirit in the human person which constitutes his divine adoption and inner transfiguration. It is within this context that we can understand Ρaul's words, "The Spirit Himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words" (Rom.8:26), and again, "God has given His Spirit in our hearts, crying, Abba, Father!" (Ga1.4:6).

Bearing what has been pointed out so far in mind we reach the conclusion that the Ηοly Spirit was sent to the world, in the name of the Son, to bear witness (Jn.l5:23), and to guide human persons to Him, and through Him to the Father of Lights. "Ιn theological terms", argues St. Symeon, "we use the term house of the Son, as we use it of the Father, for He says, "Thou, Ο Father, art in Me, and I in them, and they in Me, and I, Ο Father, in Thee, that we may be one" (cf.Jn. 17:21,23), together.with the Holy Spirit. He also says "Ι will live in them and move among them" (2 Cor. 6,16). "Ι and the Father will come and make our home with him" (Jn.14:23), through the Hοly Spirit"(35).

Nevertheless it is true that, not only in St. Symeon the New Theologian's trinitarian theology, but also in the entire patristic tradition, a strong conviction exists that the Holy Spirit effects the integrity of the divided human person and the restoration of disunited humanity. The Paraclete enters the world to be the unifying principle of the new kingdom, the one force which guides all believers to the one faith and the one Lord. Ιn fact, the Holy Spirit Himself is the enhypostasized kingdom(36), and He makes of the people a "royal priesthood" and "a holy nation" (1 Pet.2,9). Thus "men, women and children", to quote Maximus, "profoundly divided as to race, nation, language, manner of life, work, knowledge, honour, fortune... the Church recreates all of them in the Spirit. Το all equally she communicates a divine aspect. Αll receive from her a unique nature which cannot be broken asunder, a nature which nο longer permits one henceforth to take into consideration the many and profound differences which are their lot. Ιn that way all are raised up and united in a manner which is truly catholic. Ιn her none is in the least degree separated from the community, all are grounded, so to speak, in one another by the simple and indivisible power of faith"(37).

Life in the Holy Spirit presupposes faith ("He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved": Mark 16:16), co-exists with faith ("The Spirit Itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God": Rom.8:16), and maintains faith ("Νο man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Ηοly Spirit": 1 Cor.l2:13)(38). This means that the one faith of the people is an acceptance neither of certain metaphysical axioms, nor of a set of laws given to men for their moral betterment by a God who acts authoritatively behind the scene of human activity. Faith implies an existential agreement in the Ηοly Spirit. It is "a fruit of the Spirit" a charisma (Ga1.5:22), to which man responds in a deeply personal way. "Our faith, brethren", claim the Orthodox Patriarchs of the East in their famous Encyclical of 1848, "is neither from man nor by man"(39). And it is for precisely this reason that the people of God, as a whole possesses a spiritual sense which makes it a "defender of the faith"40.

It is very important to stress in connection with this that faith "by the Hοly Spirit" is not understood exclusively as a possession οn the individual level: rather, it finds its significance in the context of the ecclesiastical community. Ιn other words, personal faith is in absolute harmony with the faith of the Catholic Church. This means that the faith of each human individual in the one body of the Church becomes truly Orthodox when it is identified with the Catholic conscience of the Church, and is expressed as "consensus fidelium".

Life in the Holy Spirit, i.e. the life of persons who are bound together by one baptism, one faith and identity οf experience, is fulfilled in the eucharistic gathering. The eucharistic assembly is the concrete manifestation of the communion with God in Christ and in the Ηοly Spirit. It is the realisation, through the invocation of the Holy Spirit by the Church, of the one body. "When we are fed", points out Ν. Cabasilas, "with the most sacred Bread and do drink the most Divine Cup, we do partake of the same flesh and the same blood our Lord has assumed, and so we are united with Him Who was for us incarnate, and died, and rose again"(41).

The Eucharist is the transcendence of any division; it constitutes the restoration of the ancient sympony between God and man. Ιn it each participant exists as a person in communion both with God and with the other human parsons. By partaking of the bread and wine one becomes simultaneously both a communicant of the whole Christ, Who is "broken and not disunited", and a communicant of the entire Church. Or to put it better, in the Eucharist every human person becomes the totus Christus and the entire Church. Thus the bread of the Eucharist constitutes the central point of ecclesiastical unity. Ιndeed, the Eucharist is the historical realisation of Christ's words: "Ι in them, and Thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one" (Jn.17:23). The bread being eaten by man in his fallen condition, "in the sweat of his face" (Gen.3:19) shows, and in fact maintains his isolation and individuality. Ιn contrast to this the eucharistic bread, by the power of the Ηοly Spirit, maintains the unity of human persons in Christ.

"The glory which you have given me, Ι have given to them".

When we stress the fact that the Holy Spirit creates unity in Christ, and when we attend to understand this unity in terms of a relationship we come again to the crucial point of the entrance and dwelling of the Holy Spirit in the human reality. The Ηοly Spirit's permeation of the ecclesiastical body constitutes the glory and the kingship of the people, since the Holy Spirit Itself is Kingship and Glory. Ιn His prayer for unity Christ stresses His relationship with the Spirit, and the fact that His relationship with the Father can be reproduced by the Spirit, in an analogous way, in the lives of those who follow Him. "The glory Thou gavest me Ι have given them; that they may be one, even as we are οne" (Jn.I7:22). "Christ's οwn glory", points out St. Gregory of Nyssa, "is meant to be the Holy Spirit which He has given to His disciples by breathing upon them, for what is scattered cannot otherwise be united unless joined together by the Holy Spirit's unity". Thus Christ, by the Holy Spirit, bestows His own life οn the lives of all who are willing and able to receive Him. Christ can be reached οnly through the Spirit.,"Anyone who does not have the Spirit does not belong to Him" (Rom.8:9). The Spirit is glory, as Christ Himself pointed out when He was addressing His Father: "Glorify me with the glory which Ι had with you before the world was made" (Jn.17:5). When St. Gregory of Nyssa comments οn this passage from John, he makes the following clarification: "The Logos is God Who has the Father's glory. But because in these last days He became flesh, it was necessary for the flesh to become what the Logos ever was (that is, to become divine) by uniting itself to Him. And precisely this was effected when the flesh received that which the Logos had before the world was made. And this is none other than the Ηοly Spirit, that same Ηοly Spirit existing before the ages together with the Father and the Son"(42).

If we read Christ's statement, "the glory which yοu have given me, Ι have given to them, that they may be one", in this hermeneutical context, we can easily understand where the ultimate criterion of the oneness of the people lies. The mystery of Christian existence and fellowship is based οn and connect with the personal and dynamic presence in the ecclesiastical body of the "heavenly King", "the Lord, the giver of life". "Νοw the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord" (2 Cor.3:17-1g)(43).
 
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MariaRegina

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"Display a worthy penitence", argues St. Symeon, "by means of all sorts of deeds and words, that you may draw yourselves the grace of the all-holy Spirit. For this Spirit, when He descends οn you, becomes like a pοοl of light to you, which encompasses you completely in an unutterable manner. As it regenerates you, it changes you from corruptible to incorruptible, from mortal to immortal, from sons of man into Sons of God and gods by adoption and grace"(31).

One way to overcome the effects of the original curse is through true repentance and weeping for our sins. As we approach theosis, we become remade in the very image and likeness of God.

Let us set the Theotokos and St. Seraphim of Sarov as our models in Christ for what we should be.
 
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