Orthodox Beliefs About Salvation

[pax]

I was just curious what the Orthodox Church teaches about salvation and how it differs from the Catholic teachings (if there's a difference). Obviously in Catholicism we draw the distinction between mortal and venial sin. I've been lead to believe Orthodoxy doesn't make that distinction. Thanks in advance.

God Bless

 

[MariaRegina]

Dear Pax:

Re: The Different Types of Sin

I will only attempt to answer one of your questions.

Within Orthodoxy, we are taught that all sins are serious offenses against God, the Lover of Mankind; therefore, we don't use the term "venial".

However, there are deadly sin (which you would call mortal). These are sins against the ten commandments, the sins against the beatitudes, and the seven grevious sins: pride, greed, lust, anger, gluttony, envy, sloth.

The sin against the Holy Spirit is related to the sin of despair and presumption: either believing that you cannot be saved or that you can save yourself.

There are also deliberate and indeliberate sins, known and unknown sins, and sins of thought, word, deed, and omission.

Hope that helps,

Lovingly in Christ,
Elizabeth

 

[Photini]

I was just curious what the Orthodox Church teaches about salvation and how it differs from the Catholic teachings (if there's a difference). Obviously in Catholicism we draw the distinction between mortal and venial sin. I've been lead to believe Orthodoxy doesn't make that distinction. Thanks in advance.

God Bless

I'm not familiar with the Catholic teachings on salvation. Did you have any more specific types of questions?

 

[CopticOrthodox]

I think our teachings are pretty much the same... but there is a slightly different mindset. In Orthodoxy it's more about progression, always striving for the next level of perfection, never good enough, always trying more and more to live in heaven while on earth. In Catholicism it tends to be more an on/off thing... as long as you comit no Mortal sins you're ok, if you do, you need to come back. For us that isn't good enough, the closer we get to God, the more we're held accountable for sins, the more we see that we're sinners, and the better we have to do, by God's grace. For us what's important is that we're always making progress, never satisfied with where we are. I realize this is a huge simplification, and that each has elements of the other, but the way I see it these are the to extremes that each tends to.

 

[MariaRegina]

Dear Pax:

When I was a Roman Catholic, a Catholic Priest gave a sermon in which he stated:

"If you are not going forward in your spiritual life, you are going backwards down that slippery slope."

"If you are staying the same, you have become lukewarm and we all know what Christ had to say about the lukewarm, 'I will vomit you out of my mouth.'"

Please ask us some specific questions.

I did hear that Orthodox and Catholics have a different take on the whole idea of redemption and atonement.

This could turn into a new thread.

Lovingly in Christ,
Elizabeth

 

[pax]

Thanks for all the replies. To make sure I get it, you do draw a distinction between mortal and venial sins (although you probably wouldn't call them that). Do the deadly sins do more or less what a mortal sin would do in Catholic theology (loss of Heaven until confession/perfect contrition)? Thanks a lot!

Chanterhanson, I've never heard of the east and west having different takes on the idea of redemption and atonement, although it is possible. What did you hear?

Pax

 

[Photini]

I've heard, and read, that the teaching on salvation in the Catholic Church is actually more similar to the Protestant, rather than the Orthodox. Like two different sides of the same coin. Being a former Protestant I see the huge differences in doctrines concerning salvation. I wouldn't even know where to start to explain.

 

[CopticOrthodox]

Thanks for all the replies. To make sure I get it, you do draw a distinction between mortal and venial sins (although you probably wouldn't call them that). Do the deadly sins do more or less what a mortal sin would do in Catholic theology (loss of Heaven until confession/perfect contrition)? Thanks a lot!

Chanterhanson, I've never heard of the east and west having different takes on the idea of redemption and atonement, although it is possible. What did you hear?

Pax

The thing is, in the Catholic Church there's a list of what sins will keep one from heaven, and which won't. We don't look at it that way, we leave judgments about which sins are mortal up to God. How He will judge isn't just based on the severity of a sin, but upon the spiritual condition of the sinner, as well as ever circumstance. I realize that Catholics believe that to, but the focus on Mortal/Venial sins tends to make people lose site of that, fitting into an on/off pattern rather than a gradual progress.

As for redeption, Western theology focuses more on the Crucifixion, while Eastern theology tends to focus more on the Ressurection and the Crucifixion together. Also, to us it is important that Christ took on the same natures as ours, not a nature healed of its fallen state before He took it on, so that He could kill the sin in our nature by His victory.

 

[MariaRegina]

Thanks for all the replies. To make sure I get it, you do draw a distinction between mortal and venial sins (although you probably wouldn't call them that). Do the deadly sins do more or less what a mortal sin would do in Catholic theology (loss of Heaven until confession/perfect contrition)? Thanks a lot!

Pax

Dearest Pax:

Holy Confession is different in the Orthodox Church than in the Roman Catholic Church. For one, there are usually no confessionals as in the Catholic Church and all confessions are face-to-face. No place to hide! We make our confession standing next to the Iconostasis which divides the Altar from the Nave of the Church. We behold the Icon of Christ because our confession is made to Christ with the priest as the witness of our repentance. We are to confess all our sins of thought, word, deed, omission, known and unknown, deliberate and indeliberate. When the priest places his blessed stole over our heads, he is confirming that our sins have already been remitted.

There is really no such thing as imperfect contrition in the Orthodox Church. Either we are sorry or we are not. If we are not truly sorry, we should not approach Holy Confession as that would be a lie and a sacrilege. When we are sorry, the Lord forgives us before we even go to Confession. However, we must go to Confession if we have committed any deadly sins, so that the Priest can restore us to the life of the Church: The Holy Eucharist. By receiving Holy Communion our sins are forgiven us and the sacrament of Holy Confession is completed.

We have four lenten fasts per year and with Wednesdays and Fridays added in, the total fasting days take up more than half the year. These times of praying and fasting prepare us to receive Holy Confession. Fasting teaches us to control our tongues and to avoid sins. Through prayer and fasting I have been able to conquer sin in my life...although I still have a long way to go.

My first confessions were quite a shock. What you would call a venial sin earned a severe rebuke. It was a very humbling experience. I learned quickly that Orthodoxy calls us to a more purer life.

Perhaps a little later, I will tackle redemption.

However, there is an excellent book called, Common Ground which Philip and Oblio want to use as a study guide for an online discussion group this fall. Please join us then as the whole question on redemption and sanctification will be covered in detail.

We will probably be covering some of these thoughts in the thread on Didache: The Teaching of the Twelve. I hope you can view that thread as we are trying to honestly present the Catholic and the Orthodox viewpoints.

Hope this helps!

Any question about this?

Lovingly in Christ,
Elizabeth

 

[Lotar]

As a Protestant, I believe that any sin will seperate us from God without His forgiveness. I also believe that the only unforgivable sin is blasphamy of the Holy Spirit, the same as what chanterhanson posted.
How do your beliefs differ from that?
Also, we don't have confession before a preist. Why do you confess before a priest? Do you believe that our sins aren't forgiven if we ask in private, or is there another reason?

BTW, I know that sometimes my questions come out as accusing, I don't mean them to be, they are honest questions.

 

[pax]

As a Protestant, I believe that any sin will seperate us from God without His forgiveness. I also believe that the only unforgivable sin is blasphamy of the Holy Spirit, the same as what chanterhanson posted.
How do your beliefs differ from that?
Also, we don't have confession before a preist. Why do you confess before a priest? Do you believe that our sins aren't forgiven if we ask in private, or is there another reason?

BTW, I know that sometimes my questions come out as accusing, I don't mean them to be, they are honest questions.

I'm not Orthodox, but I think we have a similar understanding of confession. In John 20:21-23 we see Jesus tells his apostles, "as the Father sends me, so I send you. And when He said this he breathed on them and said, "receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive are forgiven them and whose sins you retain are retained." The Bishops in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have all been ordained by bishops who have been ordained by bishops...who were ordained by the apostles, who were ordained by Christ Jesus himself. Our sins are absolved in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

[Lotar]

I'm not Orthodox, but I think we have a similar understanding of confession. In John 20:21-23 we see Jesus tells his apostles, "as the Father sends me, so I send you. And when He said this he breathed on them and said, "receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive are forgiven them and whose sins you retain are retained." The Bishops in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have all been ordained by bishops who have been ordained by bishops...who were ordained by the apostles, who were ordained by Christ Jesus himself. Our sins are absolved in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

So does that mean that you don't think our sins are forgiven if we only confess in prayer?

 

[CopticOrthodox]

For us, the first step to repentance is getting down on our kneeds and asking God to forgive us. At that point, if we are sincerely repentant, we trust in His grace to keep us and save us. But we must then follow through on our repentance and confess our sins to God before the priest and receive the absolution from the priest who has received the Holy Spirit in a special way from the bishop, who received Him from the bishops before him, back to the Apostles who received Him from Christ when He breathed upon them, ordaining them Apostles. When He did that He said that whatever sins the lose or bind on earth are losed or bound in Heaven, He was instituting the Sacrament of Reconciliation, graciosly offering us the forgivenines of our sins. This forgiveness is by the blood of Christ. In the OT the person confessing would have thier sins transfered to the offering which would be slain in thier place, by placing thier hand on it and confessing before the priest. In the NT we confess our sins before the preist, and our sins are taken from us. At the start of the Liturgy, the priest rubs his hands over the bread which will become the Body, and our sins are transfered to it. When the Holy Spirit comes down and makes it the Body and Blood, it is not a resacrifice, but a participation of the Sacrifice at Calvery which was one and sufficient, so in that way our sins are put upon Christ on the Cross, who bears our sins lovingly, dying for our sins.

The washing of the feet was also instruction about confession, Christ told St. Peter that he didn't have to be washed again (baptism), only have his feet wipped (confession), but that thhat must be done or he has no part with Him. He then told them (the Apostles who He ordained, not all) to do the same for each other, washing each other's feet.

This is the system that God established to give us the forgiveness of our sins. It is a fulfillment of the OT system of sacrifices.

 

[Lotar]

For us, the first step to repentance is getting down on our kneeds and asking God to forgive us. At that point, if we are sincerely repentant, we trust in His grace to keep us and save us. But we must then follow through on our repentance and confess our sins to God before the priest and receive the absolution from the priest who has received the Holy Spirit in a special way from the bishop, who received Him from the bishops before him, back to the Apostles who received Him from Christ when He breathed upon them, ordaining them Apostles. When He did that He said that whatever sins the lose or bind on earth are losed or bound in Heaven, He was instituting the Sacrament of Reconciliation, graciosly offering us the forgivenines of our sins. This forgiveness is by the blood of Christ. In the OT the person confessing would have thier sins transfered to the offering which would be slain in thier place, by placing thier hand on it and confessing before the priest. In the NT we confess our sins before the preist, and our sins are taken from us. At the start of the Liturgy, the priest rubs his hands over the bread which will become the Body, and our sins are transfered to it. When the Holy Spirit comes down and makes it the Body and Blood, it is not a resacrifice, but a participation of the Sacrifice at Calvery which was one and sufficient, so in that way our sins are put upon Christ on the Cross, who bears our sins lovingly, dying for our sins.

The washing of the feet was also instruction about confession, Christ told St. Peter that he didn't have to be washed again (baptism), only have his feet wipped (confession), but that thhat must be done or he has no part with Him. He then told them (the Apostles who He ordained, not all) to do the same for each other, washing each other's feet.

This is the system that God established to give us the forgiveness of our sins. It is a fulfillment of the OT system of sacrifices.

I like your illistration of communion, makes a lot of sense.
So what do you think about us Protestants who only pray, but have no confession? Are our sins still forgiven?

 

[MariaRegina]

As a Protestant, I believe that any sin will seperate us from God without His forgiveness.
Also, we don't have confession before a preist. Why do you confess before a priest? Do you believe that our sins aren't forgiven if we ask in private, or is there another reason?

My dear Lotar:

Don't worry, your questions don't offend me.

As I stated before: Whenever we come before Christ with sorrow in our hearts, our sins are remitted. Therefore a person coming to Confession in the Church already has forgiveness of his sins.

Why, if a person's sins are forgiven when he goes into his closet, does he need to have Sacramental Confession?

We go before a Priest to confess our sins because Christ commanded us to confess our sins to one another. (That's in the Scripture.) We need accountability and occasionally we need a godly rebuke from our pastor to help break a bad habit. Those people who refuse to go to Confession to a priest and who struggle with guilt feelings will sometimes utilize the services of a psychologist who oftentimes will not bring God into the picture.

Hope this helps!

Lovingly in Christ,
Elizabeth

Coptic: I just got your message after I posted. Sometimes messages come three or more hours after they were posted.

 

[Lotar]

My dear Lotar:

Don't worry, your questions don't offend me.

As I stated before: Whenever we come before Christ with sorrow in our hearts, our sins are remitted. Therefore a person coming to Confession in the Church already has forgiveness of his sins.

Why, if a person's sins are forgiven when he goes into his closet, does he need to have Sacramental Confession?

We go before a Priest to confess our sins because Christ commanded us to confess our sins to one another. (That's in the Scripture.) We need accountability and occasionally we need a godly rebuke from our pastor to help break a bad habit. Those people who refuse to go to Confession to a priest and who struggle with guilt feelings will sometimes utilize the services of a psychologist who oftentimes will not bring God into the picture.

Hope this helps!

Lovingly in Christ,
Elizabeth

Coptic: I just got your message after I posted. Sometimes messages come three or more hours after they were posted.

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense.

 

[MariaRegina]

Dear Lotar and Pax:

One or both of you asked how the message of salvation differs between the Protestants and the Orthodox, or between the East and the West.

Well, I was searching the Internet and remembered this:

All Christians believe that when Jesus Christ died on the cross, He died for our sins for all time.

Orthodox Christians believe that Christ did not suffer punishment on the Cross for us to avenge the Father's anger. Rather He willingly endured the Cross to show how much His Father loved the world.

I don't know what some Protestant sects teach now, but in the past they taught that Christ had to suffer to appease God the Father's anger. They also taught that if we sinned, we would anger God and would be subject to His wrath in Hell.

Orthodox Christians, on the other hand, teach that God in His loving mercy does not want the death of sinners but that they be converted and live. It is man who turns his back on God.

Hope this helps.

Lovingly in Christ,
Elizabeth

 

[Lotar]

All Christians believe that when Jesus Christ died on the cross, He died for our sins for all time.

Orthodox Christians believe that Christ did not suffer punishment on the Cross for us to avenge the Father's anger. Rather He willingly endured the Cross to show how much His Father loved the world.

Orthodox Christians, on the other hand, teach that God in His loving mercy does not want the death of sinners but that they be converted and live. It is man who turns his back on God.

We teach the same thing

 

[CopticOrthodox]

I like your illistration of communion, makes a lot of sense.
So what do you think about us Protestants who only pray, but have no confession? Are our sins still forgiven?

That is for God to judge, not us. God instituted the Sacraments, including Confession, to give us grace. If someone is ignorant of the Sacraments, then God can give them grace outside of the Sacraments. If a Protestant confesses privately, I trust in God to have mercy. If an Orthodox Christian confesses privately, and refuses to confess before the priest, be it out of pride or laziness, then their soul is in serious danger. It's one thing to be ignorant have God come to you by other means in His grace, and quite another thing to know that Christ instituted confession so that we can have forgiveness, and to demand that He give us grace by other means so that we can avoid the discomfort of confession, when that discomfort is by the design of God to aid in our salvation.

 

[katherine2001]

Christ gave the apostles the power to remit (absolve or pardon) or retain (not absolve or pardon) sins and He told that that whatever they absolved or retained on earth would be absolved or retained in Heaven. How could the apostles have made the decision whether or not to absolve a sin without a person confessing his or her sins to one of the apostles? Also, James 5:16 says, "Confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." In the early Church, you confessed before the entire church. That changed to confessing before your priest when Christianity became the official religion of the State and it was no longer really safe to confess before the entire church. There are many good reasons why confession is done in the presence of a priest and not just in private between you and God. I would like to say that it is God who hears our confession and forgives us, but does it through the priest. In the Orthodox Church, the priest stands beside us, while we are facing an icon of Christ. That is to remind us who we are actually confessing it to. When you confess in front of another human being, the full horror of your sins becomes apparent in a way that they don't when you just confess to God in private and it's just between you and God. Also, the sins have much more power over you if they never come out into the open. Once they are out in the open and someone else knows all your dirty little secrets, sins and weaknesses, then you are accountable to someone. Also, priests counsel you and have you do certain things to help you to overcome those sins. Also, they come to know you and your weaknesses and can pray for you fully because they do truly come to know you through hearing your confessions. Your sins don't affect just you and God--they also affect other people and they affect the Church community. The priest stands in for the Church community when you do your confession and restores you to the community. Also, there is no better preparation for Communion than to do confession the night before after Vespers or the morning of the liturgy. The scriptures warn us to examine ourselves closely before partaking of Communion because it is the Body and Blood of our Lord. When you prepare for Confession (if you do it properly), you spend quite a bit of time examining things. I know that in most of the Baptist churches I attended, you didn't know you were gong to be having Communion until you arrived at the church and saw that thet the Communion service was out front. At most, you got 5 or 10 minutes to examine yourself, and I'm sorry, but you can't do a very good job of that in that length of time, especially when you are sitting in a church full of people.