Original Sin

[St_Worm2]

The unborn and young children are untouched by sin until they sin their first sin.

Every single person from the first person is responsible solely for their own personal sins.

EVERY person who has ever lived, sins. For this to happen, there must be a "cause" that is built into everyone of us somehow.

Why are we all born with one nose? Because God made us that way So God could be the cause of this as well, but if He is, if He "made us this way", that makes Him the undoubted author of evil. Also, how could He possibly hold us accountable for doing something that He caused us to do

If however, we were made "upright" and in His very "image" (like the Bible tells us we were), then we need to look for something or someone else that might have caused this problem in all of us. Fortunately, the Bible tells us that our corruption finds its genesis in our first parents' disobedience, not in God, and in the resulting change to their nature which they, as our parents, passed onto all of us ("in Adam, all die" .. 1 Corinthians 15:22).

Yours and His,
David

 

[ewq1938]

EVERY person who has ever lived, sins. For this to happen, there must be a "cause" that is built into everyone of us somehow.

Nope. We sin for various reasons but not because we inherited someone else's sin or nature.

Why are we all born with one nose? Because God made us that way So God could be the cause of this as well, but if He is, if He "made us this way", that makes Him the undoubted author of all evil. Also, how could He possibly hold us accountable for doing something that He caused us to do

Actually you are arguing that God is responsible for allowing Adam's sin to transfer through our parent etc. I am saying each person is responsible for their own choices.

If however, we were made "upright" and in His very "image" (like the Bible tells us we are), then we need to look for something or someone else that might have caused this problem in all of us.

The same scripture gives the answer.

Ecc_7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Meaning we start out upright but our own choices change that.

Fortunately the Bible tells us that our corruption finds its genesis in our first parents' disobedience and in the resulting change to their nature which they, as our parents, passed onto us ("in Adam, all die" .. 1 Corinthians 15:22).

That doesn't show anything passing on to us.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This death is passed on but only when people sin. If we inherit Adam's sin then this verse wouldn't have to include our sinning because death would pass to us before sinning but the truth is we die a spiritual death when we sin....which is exactly what happened to Adam. We are merely repeating the same basic situation...sin then a spiritual death....and we need Christ and forgiveness to overturn that death.

IOW, it wasn't God who made us all this way

If we are born with Adam's sin then God made us that way. Luckily, original sin is man made and unscriptural. Sin is our responsibility!

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi ewq, we aren't born with Adam's sin, we are born with the effect of his sin. We are born with a corrupt nature, a corrupt disposition and desire that, yes, causes all of us to sin personally. But this thing that literally touches ALL of us doesn't start with us as individuals after we are born, it started with us as a race long before you and I were born. Surely if it did not, if we fell into sin as individuals only, there would be many/most (or at least some) who never sinned. But there has only been One such individual, and He only had one human parent.

Perhaps you have in mind another "cause" that no one has considered so far? Why does the Bible teach us that we are all, "by NATURE, children of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3), if we were originally made in the image of God? Why the change in ALL of us. How did we ALL get this way?

The Bible and the church teach that our progenitors are the proximate cause of our race-wide problem. God could be, but the evidence against that being the case is staggering. So, what/who do you believe the cause to be if it is not God or our first parents?

Thanks!

--David

 

[ViaCrucis]

The unborn and young children are untouched by sin until they sin their first sin.

Is it possible, at least in theory, that someone will never sin?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Christ does not save us from physical death because every single person has died with possible exception of a couple in the OT.

If Christ doesn't save us from death, then what do you call resurrection from the dead? See, this is why I asked if you believe in the resurrection of the body. I mean, read Romans 8,

"If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit that dwells in you." - verse 11

"and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly while we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies." - verse 23

-CryptoLutheran

 

[St_Worm2]

BTW, here are several verses that come to mind showing that the "Holy Bible supports the notion of Original Sin".

"I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" Psalms 51:5

"..through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin.." Romans 5:12

"..by the transgression of the one the many died.." Romans 5:15

"..through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men.." Romans 5:17

"..through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners.." Romans 5:19

"..in Adam, all die" 1 Corinthians 15:22​

"You were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest." Ephesians 2:1-3​

Yours and His,
David

​

 

[ewq1938]

Hi ewq, we aren't born with Adam's sin, we are born with the effect of his sin.

Not according to scripture. We are born upright meaning without sin or sinful flaw.

We are born with a corrupt nature, a corrupt disposition and desire that, yes, causes all of us to sin personally.

No scripture states this so I must reject. This is a doctrine of man. The very fact that Adam sinned and couldn't have such a nature proves this.

But this thing that literally touches ALL of us doesn't start with us as individuals after we are born, it started with us as a race long before you and I were born. Surely if it did not, if we fell into sin as individuals only, there would be many, or at least some over the years, who never sinned.

We are born imperfect mortals with free will. We will always be tempted to sin eventually.

Why does the Bible teach us that we are all, "by NATURE, children of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3), if we were originally made in the image of God? Why the change in ALL of us. How did we ALL get this way?

People choose it.

The Bible and the church teach that our progenitors are the proximate cause of our race-wide problem.

The churches teaches it, the bible does not.

 

[ewq1938]

Is it possible, at least in theory, that someone will never sin?

Only if they die before sinning ie: unborn babies etc....already mentioned this in this thread.

 

[ewq1938]

If Christ doesn't save us from death, then what do you call resurrection from the dead?

A resurrection back to bodily life in an immortal body. But, they were not saved from death because they all died. But we will be saved from the second death, never dying that death.

"If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit that dwells in you." - verse 11

"and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly while we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies." - verse 23

You confuse resurrection after death/having died with being saved from death/having to die. Two VERY different things. Christ will not save anyone from the first death (the only exception are those that live to see his return), but he will save the saved from the second death. We suffer the first, not the second.

 

[ewq1938]

BTW, here are several verses that come to mind showing that the "Holy Bible supports the notion of Original Sin".

"I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" Psalms 51:5​

That is David speaking about himself not anyone else plus the actuyal KJV says he was conceived in sin not that he was sinful himself at birth. He seems to think his mother conceived him through some sinful act.

"..through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin.." Romans 5:12

Nothing about others receiving his sin. Paul writes people receive death when they sin, not receive sin when they are born.

"..by the transgression of the one the many died.." Romans 5:15

Because all have sinned...you are leaving that important part out.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Death only comes to those that sin! So, it doesn't support being born with sin etc.

"..through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men.." Romans 5:17

"..through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners.." Romans 5:19

"..in Adam, all die" 1 Corinthians 15:22

See above.

​

"You were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest." Ephesians 2:1-3

All due to choosing to live sinfully. Nothing credits any of this because sin or the effects of it are passed down through DNA or something.

​

Again, not a single verse supporting original sin. The scriptures support we receive the same death Adam did when we sin...not a moment before we sin either!

​

 

[St_Worm2]

Not according to scripture. We are born upright meaning without sin or sinful flaw.

Actually, our original parents were made "upright" and with free will, which they exercised poorly. We were not "made" like they were, rather, we are "begotten", which means that part of our makeup comes from God, and part of it comes from our parents as well, and their parents, and on and on...........

No scripture states this so I must reject. This is a doctrine of man. The very fact that Adam sinned and couldn't have such a nature proves this.

There are many verses and passages which both elude to the notion of such a thing, and others that teach it directly. Please refer to the verses I posited above in post #46. This is not a "doctrine of man", I believe that your denial of the clear teaching of the Scriptures in this case might be however.

We are born imperfect mortals with free will. We will always be tempted to sin eventually.

How can we ALL be born "imperfect" if we were created in God's perfect image What could possibly cause that to be true?

And if we have true free will, true liberty to choose either good or evil, right or wrong, why does EVERYONE choose to sin then? Again, if each one of us is made "individually" in God's perfect image, why are we born "imperfect" and why does everyone end up, from our earliest years of life, looking more like Adam than God? Not some of us, ALL of us.

The reason: Man was originally made in God's image, but we are begotten in the image of our first parents which has been corrupted.

People choose it.

If we ALL "choose it", then there has to be something in our natures that is behind that race-wide choice. If each one of us is truly free to choose either good or evil, and we were made in God's perfect image (who is a Being who ONLY chooses to do good), WHY do all of us, every single individual who has ever lived, choose evil instead

The churches teaches it, the bible does not.

Again, I don't believe that's true. See post #46 above.

Yours and His,
David

 

[ewq1938]

Actually, our original parents were made "upright" and with free will, which they exercised poorly. We were not "made" like they were, rather, we are "begotten", which means that part of our makeup comes from God, and part of it comes from our parents as well, and their parents, and on and on...........

How we are made is irrelevant. We are all also made/born/created upright and like A&E we also choose to sin and receive the same death they received. No one pays for someone else's sins and that's scriptural, the only scriptural part of this discussion, Jer 31:30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

How can we ALL be born "imperfect" if we were created in God's perfect image What could possibly cause that to be true?

lol, no scripture says "perfect image" plus the Hebrew for image and likeness is a physical likeness.

The reason:

Man was originally made in God's image, but we are begotten in the image of our first parents which has been corrupted.

Nope. Man has always and continues to be made in God's image, and innocent as far as any sin or corruption.

 

[St_Worm2]

How we are made is irrelevant. We are all also made/born/created upright and like A&E we also choose to sin and receive the same death they received. No one pays for someone else's sins and that's scriptural, the only scriptural part of this discussion, Jer 31:30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

Hi ewq, I didn't say that we will be held accountable for Adam's sin, and neither do the Scriptures. They do tell us that our nature has been corrupted because of Adam's disobedience in the Garden however, that we are now, "by nature, children of wrath". All of Adam's progeny are thus born, but this is not how God first created us. So the unanswered question remains, why/how did this race-wide change occur? Why did an entire race of people choose to turn from the way we were originally created to be by God into something we were never meant to be? Not one of us, not many, not most .. ALL of us have become something that God did not originally intend us to be .. sinners

lol, no scripture says "perfect image" plus the Hebrew for image and likeness is a physical likeness.

You are saying that God's image is an "imperfect" image then And you are saying that we were made in God's "physical" likeness? There are three nouns in the Bible that describe God, 1) God is "light" 2) God is "love" 3) God is "spirit". All of the other descriptions of Him are adjectives. That fact that God doesn't have a "physical" body makes the idea that we are created in His "physical" image a little bit hard to believe, doesn't it?

BTW, here's what one of my lexicons has to say about the meaning of צֶלֶם "image" from Genesis 1:26.

7512 I. צֶלֶם (ṣě·lěm): n.masc.; ≡ Str 6754; TWOT 1923a—1. LN 6.96–6.101 image, idol, i.e., a created and formed artifact that is worshiped as or as representing a pagan deity (Nu 33:52; 2Ki 11:18; 2Ch 23:17; Eze 7:20; 16:17; 23:14; Am 5:26+), note: for another interp in Ps 39:7[EB 6]; 73:20, see 7513; 2. LN 58.58–58.62 image, likeness, i.e., that which is a pattern, model, or example of something (Ge 1:26, 27; 5:3; 9:6+), note: the exact reference of whether this is moral, ethical, physical, nature, etc. is not clear; 3. LN 6.96–6.101 model, figures, i.e., a two or three dimensional painted or sculptured representation of something, but not necessarily a worship object (1Sa 6:5,11+) Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : Hebrew (Old Testament)​

Nope. Man has always and continues to be made in God's image, and innocent as far as any sin or corruption.

If we are still being created by God as Adam was, IOW, made "upright" by Him, with true free will (just like Adam/Eve were, with a disposition neither towards righteousness or sin), why is it that every single individual among us chooses sin, like Adam did, and none choose righteousness, like God does, especially since your claim is that we are not begotten with a tarnished image because of Adam, but are still created individually by God in His image? Shouldn't at least half of us choose to act according to the image and nature you say we were created with? Shouldn't at least one

Yours and His,
David

 

[ewq1938]

Hi ewq, I didn't say that we will be held accountable for Adam's sin, and neither do the Scriptures. They do tell us that our nature has been corrupted because of Adam's disobedience in the Garden however, that we are now, "by nature, children of wrath".

At least you are getting or have been further and further from the false doctrine of original sin. However, we were or are children of wrath by nature because we choose to sin. It is unrelated to Adam except in the sense they did it first but nothing they did corrupted us. We corrupt ourselves by our similarly bad choices.

All of Adam's progeny are thus born, but this is not how God first created us. So the unanswered question remains, why/how did this race-wide change occur?

There is no "race change". We are no different now than Adam and Eve were. We are all essentially an Adam or Eve and we face the same temptations they did and we choose as they did but we are lucky that we live in a time of post-crucifixion and the death of Christ and his blood....he died to help us right the wrongs we have chosen.

You are saying that God's image is an "imperfect" image then

It has nothing to do with perfection or imperfection. God simply made humans to have his same basic shape.

And you are saying that we were made in God's "physical" likeness? There are three nouns in the Bible that describe God, 1) God is "light" 2) God is "love" 3) God is "spirit". All of the other descriptions of Him are adjectives. That fact that God doesn't have a "physical" body makes the idea that we are created in His "physical" image a little bit hard to believe, doesn't it?

God the Father has a physical body....too many scriptures attest to that fact. I won't side track the thread to post them but will in a different thread related to that topic.

BTW, here's what one of my lexicons has to say about the meaning of צֶלֶם "image" from Genesis 1:26.

7512 I. צֶלֶם (ṣě·lěm): n.masc.; ≡ Str 6754; TWOT 1923a—1. LN 6.96–6.101 image, idol, i.e., a created and formed artifact that is worshiped as or as representing a pagan deity (Nu 33:52; 2Ki 11:18; 2Ch 23:17; Eze 7:20; 16:17; 23:14; Am 5:26+), note: for another interp in Ps 39:7[EB 6]; 73:20, see 7513; 2. LN 58.58–58.62 image, likeness, i.e., that which is a pattern, model, or example of something (Ge 1:26, 27; 5:3; 9:6+), note: the exact reference of whether this is moral, ethical, physical, nature, etc. is not clear; 3. LN 6.96–6.101 model, figures, i.e., a two or three dimensional painted or sculptured representation of something, but not necessarily a worship object (1Sa 6:5,11+) Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : Hebrew (Old Testament)​

It may not be clear to that person but it's clear in the Hebrew.

​

If we are still being created by God as Adam was, IOW, made "upright" by Him, with true free will (just like Adam/Eve were, with a disposition neither towards righteousness or sin), why is it that every single individual among us chooses sin, like Adam did, and none choose righteousness, like God does,

All sin because we are too weak to overcome temptations. Many choose sin and righteous at the same time....any Christian that wants to live righteously but fails at times and sins applies.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi again ewq, those of us who are God's children are no longer "children of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3). That's the way we are born. In fact, that's why the Bible tells us that we are that way, "by nature", born with a fallen nature as ones who God considers His "enemies", not His children (Romans 5:10).

When we become Christians, we do so because God changes us. He gives us a "new heart" and a "new spirit". He removes our "heart of stone" and gives us a "heart of flesh" in its place (Ezekiel 36:26). He causes us to be, "born again" (John 3:3), and makes us into completely "new creatures" in His Son .. 2 Corinthians 5:17 (such that we are no longer "in Adam" .. 1 Corinthians 15:22). We are no longer, "children of wrath", because God changes our nature so that we can become 'His' children instead .. John 1:12 (which is one of the points St. Paul makes in Ephesians as well).

Why the need for God to cause all these great and miraculous changes in us to become Christians if what 'you' believe about our nature is true

I could go on and on, but I realize that none of this is going to sink in, so I'll stop. Fortunately for you, you are free to believe whatever you want to believe, even if it stands in sharp contrast to those of us within the pale of Christendom, millions (at least) over the millennia, who have taken a close look at the pertinent Scriptures and found that they agree with what the church has historically taught about them, not what you do

Finally, you wrote, "It may not be clear to that person but it's clear in the Hebrew."

Generally speaking, it's not just one language scholar, rather, it's often a team of Hebrew scholars who author these lexicons. The problem is, whether its simply one scholar or many, this lexicon agrees with my other Hebrew lexicons. How many years of Biblical Hebrew have you had? Are you considered to be an expert in the language like they are?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

 

[ewq1938]

Hi again ewq, those of us who are God's children are no longer "children of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3).

Naturally.

That's the way we are born.

No, that is not scriptural.

In fact, that's why the Bible tells us that we are that way, "by nature", born with a fallen nature as ones who God considers His "enemies", not His children (Romans 5:10).

The nature is the nature that evolves in our lives regarding our sins. Never does it have any reference to birth.

Why the need for God to cause all these great and miraculous changes in us to become Christians if what 'you' believe about our nature is true

You are ignoring that I said, and scripture shows, that we are born upright but change....that's why we need a new birth.

I could go on and on, but I realize that none of this is going to sink in, so I'll stop.

No insults please. I am fully able to understand what you are saying as well as see the errors in what you say.

Fortunately for you, you are free to believe whatever you want to believe, even if it stands in sharp contrast to those of us within the pale of Christendom, millions (at least) over the millennia, who have taken a close look at the pertinent Scriptures and found that they agree with what the church has historically taught about them, not what you do

Great, so the world is flat and the sun revolves around the Earth, right? Or, people got things wrong?

Generally speaking, it's not just one language scholar, rather, it's often a team of Hebrew scholars who author these lexicons. The problem is, whether its simply one scholar or many, this lexicon agrees with my other Hebrew lexicons. How many years of Biblical Hebrew have you had? Are you considered to be an expert in the language like they are?

I accept what is provided in these expert works:

H6754
צלם
tselem
tseh'-lem
From an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol: - image, vain shew.


H1823
דּמוּת
demûth
dem-ooth'
From H1819; resemblance; concretely model, shape; adverbially like: - fashion, like (-ness, as), manner, similitude.

 

[St_Worm2]

This will never end unless one of us ends it, so I will (as we both have better things to do)

By the way, no "insult" intended up there, just a statement of the facts I do apologize if it sounded that way though!

 

[ewq1938]

This will never end unless one of us ends it, so I will (as we both have better things to do)

By the way, no "insult" intended up there, just a statement of the facts I do apologize if it sounded that way though!

, then it ends on a positive note! Hey, I understand your view, I used to hold it (and no formerly holding something doesn't make it wrong) I simply understand your position, but I have seen, thru scripture, a different and IMO better view....I know you might feel the same.

 

[St_Worm2]

....I know you might feel the same.

Hi ewq, who knows, maybe what you're saying will make more sense to me one day. I have found after being here for so many years that it is always good to have an open mind, even while steadfastly holding to certain beliefs and principles because 1) it's pretty hard to learn, to share, or to teach without an open mind and 2) I'm not God, so I fully admit that I could be wrong at times ... I even think I was once (haha )

Let's both keep studying and seeking the truth. And with God's help, we'll surely find it

Blessings to you in Christ! .. Numbers 6:24-26

--David

 

[ewq1938]

I'm not God, so I fully admit that I could be wrong at times ... I even think I was once (haha )

Amen