Original Sin

[cloudyday2]

Another aspect of original sin (whatever it means) is whether it was present in Mary and Jesus. If it wasn't present in one or both of them, then I wonder why. Were they not human? Is it only passed through the Y chromosome? I guess the Catholic Church believes in an immaculate conception of Mary. It's confusing to me.

 

[ewq1938]

Original Sin is not the teaching that we are punished for Adam's sin. Original Sin is the teaching that because of Adam's original sin we have inherited Adam's sinful disposition or concupiscience.

As far as Scriptural support,

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned" - Romans 5:12

-CryptoLutheran

That doesn't support your theory. It says people receive death (spiritual death) because they sin. We have not inherited Adam's sinful disposition or concupiscience.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

The concept of Original Sin is a late Christian notion (2nd Century). It has no foundation in the Hebrew Scriptures (Tanakh).
If Gnosticism would have won we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
If you want scriptural support I’d look in the Greek Scriptures

I have to disagree with you, original sin has foundation in the Hebrew Scriptures.
See God's response to the first sin below...He pronounces curses upon Adam and Eve, thus He identifies their sin and also responds to it.

13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” [the sin]
14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,
“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”
16 To the woman he said,
“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”
17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”
20 Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.
21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Also.....
Exodus 20:4-6:
You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children
for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
and...
Jeremiah 31:29-34:
29 “In those days people will no longer say,
‘The parents have eaten sour grapes,
and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’
30 Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—their own teeth will be set on edge.
31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

So original sin did exist or was viewed as such in O.T. just as Romans declares. Exodus and Jeremiah above remind us of this. Jeremiah goes further and describes that there will be a future change of the LAW...referring to the changes to accompany the birth and reign of the Messiah.

 

[ewq1938]

Original sin ie: sin passed down from Adam or parents to children is not found in any of those scriptures.

"30 Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—their own teeth will be set on edge." makes this obvious.

I have to disagree with you, original sin has foundation in the Hebrew Scriptures.
See God's response to the first sin below...He pronounces curses upon Adam and Eve, thus He identifies their sin and also responds to it.

13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” [the sin]
14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,
“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”
16 To the woman he said,
“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”
17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”
20 Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.
21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Also.....
Exodus 20:4-6:
You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children
for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
and...
Jeremiah 31:29-34:
29 “In those days people will no longer say,
‘The parents have eaten sour grapes,
and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’
30 Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—their own teeth will be set on edge.
31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

So original sin did exist or was viewed as such in O.T. just as Romans declares. Exodus and Jeremiah above remind us of this. Jeremiah goes further and describes that there will be a future change of the LAW...referring to the changes to accompany the birth and reign of the Messiah.

 

[ViaCrucis]

That doesn't support your theory. It says people receive death (spiritual death) because they sin. We have not inherited Adam's sinful disposition or concupiscience.

Nothing in the text refers to "spiritual death", it just says death.

So are you arguing for Pelagianism then? That we are born in the same state Adam was when he was created and it is, therefore, possible to live a just and holy life through one's own ability?

Because Pelagianism has been a condemned heresy in the Church since the 5th century, while the chief purpose of the Council of Ephesus was to condemn the errors of Nestorius, it also dealt with the errors of Pelagius.

While that doesn't mean one needs to subscribe to full Augustinianism to be within the parameters of Christian orthodoxy, it does mean that Pelagianism most definitely is outside the parameters of Christian orthodoxy.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ewq1938]

Nothing in the text refers to "spiritual death", it just says death.

Yes but Adam didn't physically die so we know it was a non-physical death ie: spiritual death.

So are you arguing for Pelagianism then? That we are born in the same state Adam was when he was created and it is, therefore, possible to live a just and holy life through one's own ability?

No. I argue that Adam was created mortal as all humans are. Adam's sin did not cause him to physically die.

 

[ViaCrucis]

No. I argue that Adam was created mortal as all humans are. Adam's sin did not cause him to physically die.

And yet the text still says through Adam came sin into the world.

Curious: Do you believe in the physical resurrection of the body?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ewq1938]

And yet the text still says through Adam came sin into the world.

Symbolically but we all know the serpent sinned before Adam did.

Curious: Do you believe in the physical resurrection of the body?

lol, of course:

1Co_15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Do you believe Jesus was/is the Messiah?

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Original sin ie: sin passed down from Adam or parents to children is not found in any of those scriptures.

"30 Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—their own teeth will be set on edge." makes this obvious.

I don't think you read my post with a critical enough eye, and I was too brief in my summary.

Genesis (the Hebrew text) gives the account of the first sin and God declaring the curses that would result (as well as the promise of a Savior). Eve, it also states, was to become the mother of ALL the living...so no one escapes the curse of sin for the mother of all is sinful and under the curse.
Exodus 20:5-6:
I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children
for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
[This contradicts your notion that each individual died for his own sin under the LAW and your claim that it proves no original sin]...I haven't looked up your reference yet, but I believe I remember it to be an application of the LAW for a select sin, a modifier for that sin punishment and not a blanket statement as the Exodus citation here.

Jeremiah 31:29-34 These passages state that there will be changes ushered in with the coming of the Messiah...
verse 29: In those days people will no longer say,
‘The parents have eaten sour grapes,
and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’
Instead, everyone will die for their own sin;
(The words *no longer* and *instead* indicate that this once was the case. Therefore, original sin was recognized as such from the beginning just as hinted by the actions taken in the garden. Furthermore the piece is prophecy and paints a future of free forgiveness and individual accountability to a personal Savior.

 

[ewq1938]

I don't think you read my post with a critical enough eye, and I was too brief in my summary.

Genesis (the Hebrew text) gives the account of the first sin and God declaring the curses that would result (as well as the promise of a Savior). Eve, it also states, was to become the mother of ALL the living...so no one escapes the curse of sin for the mother of all is sinful and under the curse.

That pronouncement from Adam does not have anything to do with a curse nor sin nor is Adam even correct in his declaration.

Exodus 20:5-6:

I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children
for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
[This contradicts your notion that each individual died for his own sin under the LAW and your claim that it proves no original sin].

Wrong. These children hate the Lord and are punished for their own sins, not of their parents sins. You are misreading the verse which is very common.

Jeremiah 31:29-34

These passages state that there will be changes ushered in with the coming of the Messiah...
verse 29: In those days people will no longer say,
‘The parents have eaten sour grapes,
and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’
Instead, everyone will die for their own sin;
(The words *no longer* and *instead* indicate that this once was the case.

It was once "said" not that it was ever true. No child inherits their parents sins.

Therefore, original sin was recognized as such from the beginning just as hinted by the actions taken in the garden.

No, the original sin doctrine is man made and has no scriptural support. We ourselves sin, and we pay for our sins only.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

That pronouncement from Adam does not have anything to do with a curse nor sin nor is Adam even correct in his declaration.






Wrong. These children hate the Lord and are punished for their own sins, not of their parents sins. You are misreading the verse which is very common.





It was once "said" not that it was ever true. No child inherits their parents sins.




No, the original sin doctrine is man made and has no scriptural support. We ourselves sin, and we pay for our sins only.

YOUR OWN ideas...totally unfounded...and you are unwilling to examine the Scriptures. BTW, God's Word, in the N.T., proves I understood and you did not. See Romans as you were already directed.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

That pronouncement from Adam does not have anything to do with a curse nor sin nor is Adam even correct in his declaration.

Wrong. These children hate the Lord and are punished for their own sins, not of their parents sins. You are misreading the verse which is very common.

It was once "said" not that it was ever true. No child inherits their parents sins.

No, the original sin doctrine is man made and has no scriptural support. We ourselves sin, and we pay for our sins only.

Jeremiah 32:17-19:
17 “Ah, Sovereign Lord, you have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and outstretched arm. Nothing is too hard for you. 18 You show love to thousands but bring the punishment for the parents’ sins into the laps of their children after them. Great and mighty God, whose name is the Lord Almighty, 19 great are your purposes and mighty are your deeds. Your eyes are open to the ways of all mankind; you reward each person according to their conduct and as their deeds deserve.
(Read this one if you care to critique my understandings)

 

[ewq1938]

YOUR OWN ideas...totally unfounded...and you are unwilling to examine the Scriptures. BTW, God's Word, in the N.T., proves I understood and you did not. See Romans as you were already directed.

You are incorrect. Your view is unscriptural without any support as I have proven.

 

[ewq1938]

Jeremiah 32:17-19:
17 “Ah, Sovereign Lord, you have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and outstretched arm. Nothing is too hard for you. 18 You show love to thousands but bring the punishment for the parents’ sins into the laps of their children after them. Great and mighty God, whose name is the Lord Almighty, 19 great are your purposes and mighty are your deeds. Your eyes are open to the ways of all mankind; you reward each person according to their conduct and as their deeds deserve.
(Read this one if you care to critique my understandings)

Obviously this is understand from other scriptures that speak of the children committing the same sins as their parents:

Exo_20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Deu_5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

The punishment did not fall upon those that didn't hate God.


Have you forgotten this fact:

Eze 18:2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
Eze 18:3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Symbolically but we all know the serpent sinned before Adam did.

My point however is that the text says that through Adam came sin and death. That's what the text says, trying to suggest the text means sin and death didn't come into the world through Adam is having it completely wrong.

Fundamentally the issue isn't about a guy named Adam eating some fruit. The issue is that there is something fundamentally wrong in creation, there is something fundamentally wrong with ourselves. That fundamental wrongness is more than just individuals occasionally goofing, there is something deeply broken in our humanity from which arises our sinful acts. That deep wrongness, in Western theology, has been described in the theory of original sin, concupiscience. It's something universally common to all people, not just a few. All of us screw up, all have sinned, nobody is just. (c.f. Romans chapters 3-5)

lol, of course:

1Co_15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

I ask because the way you're talking it seemed to suggest that the only kind of death that is significant is "spiritual death" as opposed to, you know, death. Christ saves us from death, because He was raised up from the dead, and our hope in Him is that we, too, will be raised from the dead, physically and bodily.

Do you believe Jesus was/is the Messiah?

It'd be pretty hard to call myself a Christian if I didn't believe in Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ewq1938]

My point however is that the text says that through Adam came sin and death. That's what the text says, trying to suggest the text means sin and death didn't come into the world through Adam is having it completely wrong.

The main thing is properly identifying which death Adam died when he sinned and thus what death is passed to man when they sin. It is spiritual death not physical death and of course Christ died to save us from death, again not from physical death but from spiritual death.

It's something universally common to all people, not just a few. All of us screw up, all have sinned, nobody is just. (c.f. Romans chapters 3-5)

People Sion for many various reasons....not because we have inherited anything from Adam.

I ask because the way you're talking it seemed to suggest that the only kind of death that is significant is "spiritual death" as opposed to, you know, death.

It is the only significant type of death. No one likes the idea of physical death of course but it is the second death that sin will lead us to, and is the death that Christ came to save us from.

Christ saves us from death, because He was raised up from the dead, and our hope in Him is that we, too, will be raised from the dead, physically and bodily.

Christ does not save us from physical death because every single person has died with possible exception of a couple in the OT.

 

[peepnklown]

I have to disagree with you, original sin has foundation in the Hebrew Scriptures.

I disagree. The Christian concept of ‘Original Sin’ has no foundation in the Hebrew Scriptures.

‘…a Consequence of this first sin, the hereditary stain with which we are born on account of our origin or descent from Adam.’
Does Exodus 20:4-6 say anything about this concept? No.
Exodus 20:4 -5 speak about those who love God and keep his commandments and those who do not.
It has nothing to do with the concept of ‘Original Sin.’
Jeremiah 31:29-34, so where in these verses does it support your claim? Explain how these verses support the concept of ‘Original Sin.’

Adam and Eve; Technically, the first time the Hebrew Scriptures use the term ‘sin’ it is in reference to the jealousy of Can vs. Abel in Genesis 4:7.
The story introduces the basic principle of reward and punishment.
Every person has a choice of doing good or bad. If a person chooses ‘good’ then he is able to be closer to God, etc.
The story of Adam and Eve has nothing to do with an ‘original sin.’ It has nothing to do with ‘sin’ at all.

 

[ewq1938]

The story of Adam and Eve has nothing to do with an ‘original sin.’ It has nothing to do with ‘sin’ at all.

That's an indefensible position to take.

Rom_5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Rom_5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Sin has everything to do with the story of Adam and Eve....but the doctrine that their sin was passed down to all humans is what is false.

 

[St_Worm2]

People sin for many various reasons....not because we have inherited anything from Adam.

Hi ewq, while what you say might be possible on a different scale, the effect of sin is evident in all who have ever lived, and that by a very young age. IOW, "NO ONE is perfect", right

An effect as universal as this one, one that spans our race and includes everyone from our progenitors to all of their progeny (save One), must have a single "cause". And if our first parents are not the "cause", then there is only one other Being who could be, which would make Him, not us, the author of evil, sin and death.

Yours and His,
David

 

[ewq1938]

Hi ewq, while what you say might be possible on a different scale, the effect of sin is evident in all who have ever lived, and that by a very young age. IOW, "NO ONE is perfect", right

The unborn and young children are untouched by sin until they sin their first sin.

An effect as universal as this one, one that spans our race and includes everyone from our progenitors to all of their progeny (save One), must have a single "cause". And if our first parents are not the "cause", then there is only one other Being who could be, which would make Him, not us, the author of evil, sin and death.

Every single person from the first person is responsible solely for their own personal sins.