Original Sin ??

[Gentileone]

Yes i agree with both statements from Dr and Hollyrokker in the way they have explained.

Cain had a choice and was given chance to correct himself but Abel had the revelation to sacrafice a lamb,Cain had to be corrected.
The slain lamb typed Jesus when God covered Adam and Eve because they sined and realised they were naked(sin uncovered/nakedness), therefore there sins were attoned for (perfect sacrafice) aswell as Abel gave the perfect sacrafice for his attonement/sins (perfect sacrafice)

Why and how did Abel have the revelation and not Cain?
Was it because Abel was of Adams seed, and Cain not of Adam?

Does Abel represent the Jewish nation and Cain represents the Gentile nation as in a type?

Also can we try and stick to the original Question even though i think Cain and Abel and Cain has alot to do with the subject.

Thanks

God Bless

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Ok, I think I see where you are headed now and no, I do not agree with it all or even the direction this leads one. You would not be the first to go down this path and there are many variations of it. So let me guess, Eve's sin would be to sleep with the beast and she then bore Cain as a product of that union while Cain is Adam's son. In most variations of this theme it is presumed these now "two" human races could mix, but they would say some are alive today that are “pure” direct descendents of either "race" while others would be a ******* mix. BlaBLABLAHBLAH. Nice theory.

Is that what you wanted us to "see" in Genesis? Is that what God(?) has "revealed" to us in Genesis, that not all men are created equal? Sorry, cannot accept that or any such explanation of Genesis’s.

Much of what people with these beliefs are attempting to "explain" with these theories stems only from a very literal interpretation of the early part of the book. These are nothing but imaginative attempts at resolving difficulties a literal stance creates. Since we do not hold to a literal interpretation of the creation story, we have no need to imagine "what Eve's sin was" or "how evil seed" entered the human race.

Of course for hundreds of years many racists have loved these theories as it provides in thier minds some "biblical" basis and even a "God"(?) given right for racism. My "race" is pure, yours is the spawn of Satan. I do not know nor care to hear what particular variant of this theme you use, but can assure you it is far older than whatever Church is that teaches this.

The human race, all of it, came from Adam and Eve. This is a Truth from the given creation story. Even most biologist and geneticist today now think we all descend from a single pair of humans.

Why would you disguise this under the banner of ORIGINAL SIN, since the theory of "two" races of men has nothing to do with that?

 

[Gentileone]

Im not disguising nothing under any banner, this is a open discussion on ppl views
and simply what the heading says Original Sin!!

I certaintly would not be racist against anybody or there belief, if they dont line up to God's word well thats between God and that person.
What racist do with the word is not up to me or there conduct.
What you exept DrBubbaLove is your choice to believe what you want on any topic,
and you come across as frustrated at that, you think ppl are so misslead on the truth.(my thoughts and not a dig at you personly but by the response of your post).
There is a literal explanation but its hidden and revealed unto babes, like all scriptures in the bible, everything we need to know is in the bible.
The outcome of the sin is plain to see, but the sin itself needs research.
Not only is it in the OT but its in the NT as a running theme thru out the bible.

If you dont care then i ask,
Why did you respond and if you can assure me that its older than any church that teachers this (true the sin is older than any man made church), well that comment includes you therefore you are saying you have no idea and you are wrong as the same as me coz it older then any church and no-one has a clue.Go figure !!


Offcourse, all race's come from Eve , were else would it come from.?
Eve is a woman and man cannot give birth or concieve.

I dont mind if you put your understanding forward infact i would like to read it.

Please do not assume that im a racist or its imaginary theory but have respect for what i believe whether it be correct or incorrect.

The way ive come out with this is my choice and for my own reason.
I wanted to find out what ppl understood and listen to there answers.
Also to have a respectfull conversasion without comments as you have made.
It shows me you might have some truths but you certaintly havent shown love in this occassion.
We do both know what God says about love but that is entirely between you and God on how you conduct yourself

I would like to hear your understanding if you wish to answer the Question about Original Sin.

Also DrBubbaLove im unsure to express my views in the other topic were are discussing from the way you have just conducted yourself in this one.
My views are very hurtfull towards the Catholics system not the ppl.
I dont want to start a arguement, thats not what im here for but to discuss and listen reapectively of ppl's understanding.

If you want express yourself other than this post you may PM with any statement or criticism and i assure you it wont go any further or be reported.

God Bless you

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Gentile dude,

Peace, I did not call you a racist. Do not know you and have no reason from your posts to suspect racism. Would also rather see this remain an open discussion. I simply said that people and even some Churches have held such beliefs as I described in support of their racism. Have personal experience with it myself and it is born of a hatred that most of us cannot begin to fathom or comprehend. My own father holds some of the views I described. He says it is this very literal line of reading it that "led" him to interpret these passages that way. In his mind, some people alive today are damned simply because they were born "the spawn" of Satan, from an evil seed passed down from Cain. I would have always described him as closet racists, not outspoken about it even before I learned how he felt about these same verses. In his mind, his understanding of these verses "justifies" how he has always felt about some races. He takes it a step further saying such men have no souls; they are little more than animals. It was his literal reading and attempt at making that literal reading all make sense to himself that "led" him to these conclusions. To me such thinking is evil.

The very idea that the human race can be divided into those of a straight (pure) lineage from Adam and others either straight from somewhere else or from a mix of both is repugnant. As you can tell my feelings are very strong about that. My apologies in making you feel that you or your posts were repugnant. The dignity of man lies in our equality, in that God created each of us, male and female. It stands at the heart of Christianity as to why we are supposed to love everybody. It is because of that dignity, that each of us is His creation that I must see others, regardless of how they act, as God’s work and worthy of the same respect as that given to myself (assuming first that I have a healthy love of myself).

Regardless of the purity of motive or desire to explain these passages, to me it is a serious error to suggest the Bible says that because of the fall of man the human race can be divided into sub-races that are inherently unequal.
As far as these ideas being old, I know only that you are not Catholic and that these ideas and the use of a literal interpretation of scripture would predate any modern Church today. It would NOT predate the Church in the Christian realm, though perhaps it would in earlier pagan circles.

Hope we can continue as well. The basis for our understanding of Genesis lies in much of it not being literal. As I am not certain what part of that you would like to understand or ask about, am hesitant to just jump in. Some of these views were offered to you and you seemed to want to steer things another way. By all means ask.


Sorry for the strong emotions this evokes from me. My intent was more of a warning that these folks and thier Churches are out there. Again, you have given no one here that I can see any reason to call you anything but GentileOne.

And may God bless you and yours daily and hold you all safe in the palm of His Hand.

 

[RedTulipMom]

This story in Genesis can not be taken literal. Its obvious it is spiritual in that the tree of life and the tree of good and evil are spiritual. There was no evil in the world before adam and eve partook of the tree of good and evil. They were pure souls before that. As Genesis says, their eyes were opened and they were able to see both good and evil. When we have a born again experience we are now eating from the tree of life again. We are set free. As it says in John "you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." What is that truth? The truth that we are souls that come from God. We are now able to walk in the Spirit as Adam and eve were walking in before they ate from the tree of good and evil. Through the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ we are now able to eat from the tree of eternal life like God had always intended.

karen

 

[Gentileone]

Hi all

DrBubbaLove
No affence taken at all
Im sorry that it stired up some feelings with family and i would be upset if my dad said that too.
I completely understand how and why you would feel that way from your post.
No offence taken, again i appoligize to you for not understanding better the first time.

I feel the biggest problem is that some are lead by the wrong spirit and they either over do it or under do it.

Yes im guilty in trying to steer things in one direction, and that is to find out exactly what ppl think of the Original sin of Eve and Adam and there understandings.
I was trying to keep on topic!

Im finding by most post ppl are just hitting on the tittles of the sin and not going any deeper in there post.
Thats Ok by me anyways.

Cain is not of Adam
Cain is not in Adams geneoligy, but God still loved Cain and also offered Cain a way out, by giving Cain an opportunity to correct himself.
Cain chose to do what he did.
We all have to resist the devil, just as Cain had to, but didnt, nor Adam for that matter and Adam was pure!
We all have a choice to do wrong or right, even as christian
We all have that same love and guidence when we are wrong.
Gods wants all to come to him.

The blood line is the pure line directly from Adam.
The blood line directly from Cain is not pure.
That does not mean God doesnt love all the descendants.
It does not mean the two blood lines are not equally loved by God, when and if they obey God they become his, when they dont they of the Devil.

It runs completly through Geneses to Jesus to Revalation.
You cant just look at Genesis to find the answers as you know.

Im am very glad that you will choose to post on here again and as allways you very welcome to post to me anytime.
I also hope that you and I can become great friends and lay our different views aside to have a long lasting friutfull friendship.
Dont be hesitant to post you understandings even if you feel its not on topic, I would love to hear you views and take great consideration and respect on what you post, also this what its all about.

Thanks once again DrBubbaLove

May God Bless us all on our walk home

 

[Gentileone]

This story in Genesis can not be taken literal. Its obvious it is spiritual in that the tree of life and the tree of good and evil are spiritual. There was no evil in the world before adam and eve partook of the tree of good and evil. They were pure souls before that. As Genesis says, their eyes were opened and they were able to see both good and evil. When we have a born again experience we are now eating from the tree of life again. We are set free. As it says in John "you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." What is that truth? The truth that we are souls that come from God. We are now able to walk in the Spirit as Adam and eve were walking in before they ate from the tree of good and evil. Through the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ we are now able to eat from the tree of eternal life like God had always intended.

karen

I agree it cannot be taken literal its infact spiritual as you have said.
Some ppl are of the view it was a apple,pommegranite that actaully ate.

Threre was evil in the world before Adam and Eve partook of the tree of good and evil.

Eve was beguiled by the beast and they both conversed aswell.
Therefore evil was there before they fell to sin.
But i think i understand what you are trying to say is that there was no evil in the human race untill the the moment of the fall of Eve.
Thats were the devil planted his seed into the human race.

The truth is when we are set free is, that Jesus died on the cross so we will live in eternal life and once we exept that Jesus died for us then we are set free providing batism offcourse.
Thats my understanding of it.

Thanx for your understanding Karenmarie

God Bless

 

[prodromos]

Cain is not of Adam
Cain is not in Adams geneoligy, but God still loved Cain and also offered Cain a way out, by giving Cain an opportunity to correct himself.
Cain chose to do what he did.

And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and brought forth Cain and said, I have gained a man through God. And she again bore his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

I really don't know what more needs to be said in regards to this point.

John.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Thanks for stating the obvious John. My dad would say Eve lied about who the real father was. Have found that people who want to see ONLY what they want to see in the Bible usually find it. When they have built their entire belief and faith around just their own understanding of the Bible alone, it is difficult for them to open themselves to any alternative explanation. To even think of considering it shakes the only thing that supports their faith, that is the Bible alone and their understanding of it. We on the other hand have much more than the Bible to support us, to lean on.

It is funny when people want to take things so literal in explaining every verse, reject anything not explicitly written (especially if they disagree) and then when they hit a snag in what they want the Bible to say, something from left field can just be inserted to make the snag "fit" thier interpretation.

In my experience people "seeing" a pure human race parallel with something esle through Cain must of necessity insert things to get around this verse. And they do so without batting an eye. Which baffles me when trying to talk to them about things we believe which are not explicit in scripture as the first thing out of thier mouth is "where is that".



Gentile,
Thanks for understanding. Am cool and would like to understand you better as well. My dad adamantly denies racism. Go figure. He usually gets quite when asked how he would feel about "his belief" had he been born one of those men "without a soul" instead of having the "good" fortune to be born with one. Just shake my head. What can I do, he is my papa.

How do you approach John's quoted verse with your belief?

Where/from whom do you say Eve gets this evil seed to produce Cain?


And how do you see a race of men, not pure from Adam, having equality with those that are pure?

And can you identify for us these “races” today? If so, which do you belong to?

 

[Gentileone]

Gen 1:4 i will explain later in more depth when i have more time.

But as to which race i belong to , mmm i never thought about really.
I dont know if my linage goes back to Adam or not, but the important thing is i believe is, being saved by Jesus.

I see the race without to much thought is Jewish and Gentiles i gues.

The seed comes from the beast which was able to talk with Eve. "The beast Beguiled me"

I have to kinda resent the remark about " Have found that people who want to see ONLY what they want to see in the Bible usually find it. When they have built their entire belief and faith around just their own understanding of the Bible alone, it is difficult for them to open themselves to any alternative explanation. To even think of considering it shakes the only thing that supports their faith, that is the Bible alone and their understanding of it.
Please and i hope you do not refer that Quote to me, i dont mind if things are true but that statement is not.
But yes some ppl can be like that as i have come across many.

"We on the other hand have much more than the Bible to support us, to lean on."

You are talking to a person that if Iam wrong i will stand corrected and openly and humbly be corrected.

I do read the scriptures very very carefully and I realize i cannot know all things and also can have the wrong interpretation also not the full meaning, thats why im willing to allways learn.
Im am not the only person who has a chance of being the bride there are many out there. We all have "We on the other hand have much more than the Bible to support us, to lean on." that very same Lord Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit and God.
Do not KID yourself that you and your church are the only ones!
No-one is the be all and end all EXEPT Jesus.

Now as for the scripture you Quoted GEN 4:1,2 mmmm mayby you didnt read it properly or did you ? Im not sure but what i read is this;
KJV says Adam knew Eve and she bare Cain and AGAIN she bare his brother Abel
Were does it say Adam knew Eve the second time?
Ever thought twins.!!
Ever heard of a mother giving birth to twins, a white baby then a black baby.

Thanks for your inputs and understandings/revelations, Dr and Prodromos.

Can you share with me your understanding on how Evil got into the human race?
Why are we born of Sin and how are we born of sin?
What was the Original Sin that Eve actually did physically, and please dont say she ate of the tree of good and evil.
Im asking what was it that Eve did because the tree of good and evil is spiritual as you have said allready.
Eve had to do something to make God angry.
God knew what they did because when he came in the cool of the day God ask where are you, God knew they were hiding. God know's all things.
Eve had to have done something physically.

What are your thuoghts Dr??

God Bless

 

[DrBubbaLove]

GentileOne,

We are not going to agree on everything. It is difficult but I find it helps to not see everything posted that we do not agree with as a personal attack. In this case that is why your moniker appears about half down the post. The rest of that post is a general comment for all participating in this thread.

We are having discourse and there are other people involved. I was acknowledging the fact that some Churches do not teach "the Bible alone" and have doctrine and teaching authority for their members to lean/rely on. I do not have to rely on my own understanding. That does not mean I do not ever have doubts, confusion or wonder about things. In the final cut, as a Catholic I am called to accept what the Church teaches whether I fully understand or not. So before I spend too much time seeking understanding of a particular scripture, it is best for me to see what the Church says about it first.

Whereas those that believe in “the Bible alone” have little else save like minded Christians and the same Spirit we all have. That position of having less of a foundation logically makes them more defensive about whatever it is they feel the Bible says to them. Their understanding of God’s Word is not just part of the foundation of their faith, it is the only foundation. So presenting an alternative view of a particular passage to someone believing in the Bible alone is essentially an attack on his or her faith if they do not agree with you. It is just like when you have nobody backing you up in a fight or argument then our nature is to be more aggressive in defending our position.
Your questions next.

 

[Gentileone]

I was and did write a whole heap down Dr ( hope you dont mind me calling you just Dr, im not being disrespectfull)

Whether it be a personnell attack or not its still an attack on all, therefore that includes me.
I understand it was a reply to John but those types of statements are better kepted between yourselves in another thread.
I dont wont this thread to become a slinging match, therefore i will not continue down this path.
So I realized this is not nor the time in this thread to answer that.
It would certaintly lead way of track and it would be not nice to the catholic church system which you have touched on.

I do have another thread going concerning the catholic church as i think you are aware of, if not ill give you the web addr if you so desire.
Im not far of getting all the evidence i need, then the task of putting it all together.

But i will say this what other ppl believe is there chioce and i like to Question them and visa versa, I will not be affended if they dont believe me and say "man your are so wrong" .
Were i have a problem is were ppl in general catagorize me whem they have know idea about me.
Then i will tell them politly its not so, end of story.
I like ppl who are straight forward and say respectivly "your wrong i dont believe that, and give there understanding".
Hopefully then we can understand why the person feels im wrong and were i feel the person is wrong.

So do you and John like to answer the Question i have put to you in the other post #30.
There is no pressure from me if do not wish to thats fine by me aswell.

Its been great to talking with you this far and I hope we can continue

May God Bless you Brother

 

[DrBubbaLove]

My KJV says “And she again bare”. Found a website blueletterbible.org that has some good tools making it very easy to compare several versions.

Later she gave birth - NLV
Then she bore again – NKJV
Again, she gave birth – NASB
And again, she bore his brother – RSV
And again she bare his brother – ASV

Am certainly no doctor of the scripture, but to me while the structure does not exclude the possibility of twins, the language in verse 1 and 2 suggest two events, with the AGAIN part referring to what they did, what she was excited about in the first verse, to make the baby. You would think twins worthy of an explicit note also since it is a rare event. So the fact that it is not mentioned seems to suggest that was not the case.

How did evil get into the human race?

By sin. Just like the angels before their fall, Adam and Eve were made Holy. They had immortal bodies and souls that were in perfect harmony with each other – (no lusts of the flesh or weakness of will). God said EVERYTHING was “VERY GOOD”. Just like the angels they had freewill and made a choice to sin. Sin changed their state immediately, causing disunion in their body and spirit, which creates a tension between the two and leaves us inclined to evil. It is that inclination we inherit.


Why and how are we “born of sin”?

Because of Adam’s sin he became unholy and so could no longer be in the presence of the Lord (he had to leave the Garden, where he formerly “walked" with the Lord). We have hints that things and life in the Garden were very good and God is shown telling them after the fall that some things would now be bad, very different and hard. Life itself changes for them. If everything is VERY GOOD and afterwards it is not and still is not today, then clearly the effect of Adams sin was global and propagating in time and place. All of Adam’s children would be affected by his sin. That which is unholy cannot procreate/give birth to something holy without God’s Grace. That Grace is removed from the human race when Adam sinned. So we are all born in that condition, born in sin, unholy.

What was Eve’s sin?

One way the Church defines sin is “an offense against God.” http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt1art8.htm I personally do not think it really matters exactly what the offense was. Whatever it was, it was the one and only thing they specifically were told not to do by God, so they knew they should not do it. I think the actual sin itself had to involve, as most sin does, their Pride. It is their pride that Satan appeals to: “you can be just like God.”

Let’s cut to the chase.

If Eve slept with something not human to produce Cain then the resulting offspring could in no way be on an equal status with a human. It would be something either lower or higher than a human depending on how you look at it. Angels were created first. Purely spiritual beings who are more powerful and smarter than humans. If it were possible, and I think not, the offspring of an angel and a human would have to be something in between the two in power and intelligence. So in some respect, even if the angel were fallen/evil, the offspring of such a pair would be super-human. What if Eve slept with a sub-human beast some people might ask? Some sort of ape perhaps? Well if that were possible, and I think even science tells us it would not be, the result there would be something less than a man, sub-human. So either way you look at this, if Cain was not Adam’s son then Cain was either super or sub-human.

You then suggest other children of Eve were Adam’s and these would be “pure” humans. The problem now is that any way you look at it, if you still consider Cain a man, then there are inherited inequalities between that man and his offspring and those that are “pure” human. By definition either way you say Eve went, one is superior to the other.

At the heart of all Christian faith is the concept that God created man in His image. Out of my respect and love for our God, I am to respect and love all men equally. Not just “like” them, but I am required to love them because just like me they too are made “in His image”! But how can that be if not “all” men are born equal? If some men are “super” or “sub” human to any degree at all, how then are they made “in His Image” like me?

If Adam was made as it says “in His Image” it stands to reason and we believe Adam and Eve’s offspring are also made “in His Image”. The same could not be said of Cain if Adam were not his father. Cain would have to be the image of something else, something that no longer reflects the "image of God". In order for me to truly consider all men my equal, I have to know in my heart that God created all humans special, "in His Image" and that He thought it Good that each of us is here. It is only then if I truly believe that, that I have no excuse for mistreating others. In fact I am obligated to help others make it through this life because of the dignity given to each of us by God in making us all "in His Image.

So no, I cannot possibly see how a belief that Cain was not Adam's son fits with the concept that we are all made in God's Image, thereby deserving of the same dignity and respect to and from each other.

 

[Gentileone]

Thanks Dr

I now understand how and why you believe your understanding on this topic.
Thankyou

Im glad now you can see there could have been twins, and there was two events.
When we think about it, whilst the mother having twins it can happen apart being several hours and even days and rare occasion's a month or it could have been closer, therefore it can be said it was two events.


I do agree as far as the angels and how the sin affected them.

I agree it doesnt really matter and we shouldnt split hairs so to speak on these types of topics.As we see only to often in CT forums.
What matters is our walk.





When i said about pure blood line i was meaning exactly that "blood" not human race.
Thats why we see Jesus coming from the pure blood line which can be traced right back Adam.

[font=Georgia, Bookman Old Style, Times New Roman, Times, New York, serif]He that has an ear, let Him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh I will give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Now, look, friends; here's the way you overcome. First you have to overcome, then you can eat the fruit. It's the overcomer. You remember the other night, our teaching last night? John had to get in the Spirit before he saw anything. And how you going set, saying, "If he's not Baptist, I ain't going to listen to him"? "If he ain't Presbyterian, I ain't going to listen to him. If he don't teach just exactly what my church teaches, I..." You--you--you ain't going to overcome; you ain't got in the Spirit yet. You're all out of order.
Get in the Spirit and say, "Lord Jesus, I love You; now reveal to me anything that You see fit, just bring unto me." Then you're--then you're getting all right. That's right. [/font] [font=Georgia, Bookman Old Style, Times New Roman, Times, New York, serif]242 Notice, three times the Bible speaks of--of the Tree of Life in Genesis, three times in the Book of Revelation. The other day we had that. Remember? Sunday, yesterday. The only... The Devil hates every bit of Scripture there is, but he hates worse Genesis and Revelation. He attacks Genesis because the authenticity of it, because he wants to make people believe that It wasn't so; "Genesis didn't come about the way that God said they did, had something else caused this creation and thing." Then he attacks it that way. And he takes people away from Revelations because it reveals Jesus as being God, and him being the devil and he's doomed, and the glory of the sanctified church going home to God, and the doom of the false prophet, and all them that lie and do everything going to be cast into the lake of fire. It's no wonder he keeps them away from it.
But remember, both places speaks of the Tree of Life in paradise. [/font]

[font=Georgia, Bookman Old Style, Times New Roman, Times, New York, serif]243 Now, let's take this just a minute, and now the "Tree." Saint John the 6th chapter, if you want to mark it down, Jesus said, "I am the--the--the Bread of Life." Now, remember.
Now, we're going to use these two posts as a symbol here. So just before closing now. Now, on my right hand is the tree in the garden called the Tree of Life; on my left hand is the tree in the garden that's called the tree of knowledge. How many knows that the Bible says that there's a Tree of Life and a tree of knowledge? Now, man was to live by this Tree of Life, not to touch the tree of knowledge. Is that right? And the first time he touched it, he separated himself from his Creator. He lost his--his fellowship with God when he took his first bite of knowledge. Now, think hard now. And you writing your notes, I'll give time so you can get it, 'cause I don't want you to miss this. [/font]

[font=Georgia, Bookman Old Style, Times New Roman, Times, New York, serif]245 Jesus, in Saint John 6... They were drinking from a fountain, and throwing up their hands and putting on a mockery there, that their fathers drank from the spiritual Rock, and so forth. He said, "I'm that Rock that was in the wilderness."
And they said, "Here you're saying that you was before Abraham, and you're a man not over fifty years old. And you say that you saw Abraham? We know that--now, that, you're mad; you're a devil." See?
He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM." I AM was in the bush with Moses: the burning bush, I AM. "Before Abraham was, I AM." Not, "I was."
Now, you people that say the days of miracles is past, you'd have to make that Scripture say, "I was the great I was." See?
Not "I was," or "I will be"; "I AM," that's all the time. He's eternal. The word "I AM" is an eternal, all their age, all the time, in all the seven golden candlesticks, every church, every place, every heart, "I AM," not "I was" or "I will be." "I am right now as I always was. (See?) Always, I AM." [/font]

[font=Georgia, Bookman Old Style, Times New Roman, Times, New York, serif]250 They said, "Our fathers... We don't know you. We know you're a devil." Said, "Our fathers eat manna in the wilderness for a space of forty years."
And Jesus said, "And they're every one dead." That right? "They're all dead. But I (Oh.), I am the Bread of Life that come from God out of heaven. If... A Bread of Life... If a man eats this Bread he shall never die."
"Will this man give his body, to eat that? Now, he's mad, sure enough."
The Bread of Life was from the Tree of Life, where they was eating, from the garden of Eden. He was the Tree of Life. Now, if the Tree of Life was a Person, then the tree of knowledge was a person. Now, say the serpent didn't have a seed. If life come by man, death come by the woman. All right, she was the tree of death. [/font]

[font=Georgia, Bookman Old Style, Times New Roman, Times, New York, serif]254 As soon as--as this one defiled her, which he did (the serpent), she said, "The serpent beguiled me." That's right. Not a snake; he was the most subtle of all the beasts; he was between a chimpanzee and a man. Seed of a animal won't cross with a woman: won't do it; but this fellow was; he was the next link to it. And God put such a curse on him, He put him plumb back on his belly, and no legs, and took every bone in him and changed it from anything like a man. Science trying to dig it up in a field... That's hid in the mysteries of God, in the middle of the paradise of God. There's your revelation. [/font]

[font=Georgia, Bookman Old Style, Times New Roman, Times, New York, serif]255 She brought forth her first son which was Cain (Is that right?), the son of Satan, son of Satan. If they didn't, where'd that--where'd that evil come from? Out of Adam which was the son of God? Come from the Devil, his father. And he murdered; first murderer was the Devil, the Devil's son.
Watch what happened after that, watch the lineage of Cain. On down through that generation that followed after Cain, was every one scientist and great men. Read the Bible. They build houses; they work with metal, and they were scientists. But everyone that come from Seth (which Abel died, a type of Jesus, died; and Abel died, and Seth took his place: death, burial, and resurrection)... from his; come humble peasants, sheep herders come down through that. [/font]

[font=Georgia, Bookman Old Style, Times New Roman, Times, New York, serif]257 Now, Jesus said, "Your fathers eat manna in the wilderness and they're all dead. But I am that Bread of Life (What Bread of Life? From Eden.), that a man may eat of this Bread and never die." Now, God put an Angel around that Tree of Life to guard it, that no one could touch it, unless they would eat that Tree and live forever. Is that right?
Because they had to continue on this tree and die. Is that right? 'Cause as long as they had to eat to that, they died. And just as sure as you die because you eat from that tree of knowledge...
Now, let's look at that tree of knowledge now. Look what it's done. Now, let's see what it's done. The first thing, let's see, it... Well, let's see one that they... It invented gunpowder. It kills our comrades. That's right, kill one another with gunpowder off the tree of knowledge. The next thing we done, my, let's see, we--we invented the automobile off that tree of knowledge. It kills more than gunpowder does. Oh, yeah. Now, we've got a hydrogen bomb. God don't destroy nothing; man destroys himself by his knowledge. [/font]

[font=Georgia, Bookman Old Style, Times New Roman, Times, New York, serif]259 But all that belongs to God, God will raise it up again; God loses nothing. Jesus said so. That's right, "He that eats this Bread has Eternal Life, and I'll raise him up again at the last day." That's His promise. Now, God...
They went ahead eating on the tree of knowledge and dying. But as soon as they could get to this Tree, they would live forever.
So now, instead of an Angel out there keeping them away from this Tree; it's out there driving them around to this Tree; the angels of the churches, "It's to every person," bringing them back to the Name of Jesus Christ Who is the Tree of Life that stands in the paradise of God. Whew. My. I hope you get that. The Tree of Life, standing in the paradise of God, that you may partake of Him and become son and daughter of God and live forever. "He that heareth My Words and believeth on Him that sent Me has Eternal Life, and shall never come into the judgment, but's passed from death unto Life.[/font]

[font=Georgia, Bookman Old Style, Times New Roman, Times, New York, serif]He that has an ear, let Him hear what the Spirit saith


[/font][font=Georgia, Bookman Old Style, Times New Roman, Times, New York, serif]Ok so this what i believe , what do you think?
I hope this gives you some understanding how i come to the statements i have made.[/font][font=Georgia, Bookman Old Style, Times New Roman, Times, New York, serif][/font]Any one feel free to comment.

May God open all our eyes up by taken the veil from of us, Amen

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Well, it is certainly what I expected. I agree that the Trees and even the Garden are symbols used in the story of creation to make a particular point. To believe those points from this story, I do not believe it is necessary to also believe that there was an actual tree or even a Garden.

The setting of the Garden represents all that was formerly Very Good about ALL of creation. The sin of Adam caused all of creation to be changed, so there could be no returning to a place, it all changed. I agree that the Tree of Life is symbolic and can be seen as a ‘type’ for Jesus, who is the Bread of Life. I do not think it means Adam and Eve were eating Jesus before the fall. We do however believe that since the time of His sacrifice, we can eat that Bread and drink that Life right now, just like He said.

As to what the other tree represents, we do not agree there. First of all, this man you quote says the creature having sex with Eve is "between" a man and an ape. In almost the same breath he reminds us that Eve called him a "serpent". Do not know about you, but that word does not make me think of something between an ape and man. It makes me think of something like a dragon. He makes a node to science (knowledge) when he indicates we know humans cannot cross with apes, so this thing having sex with eve must be a man-ape. Which would make Cain, the alleged offspring of this unholy union, less than human. Then this man later says that the serpent, the ape-man is Satan and Cain the son of Satan. Which makes Cain higher than man.

That is an interesting point because an ape-man, by definition is lower than man and Satan being an angel is created higher than man (more powerful and more intelligent). So which is it, because this Son of Satan, Cain cannot be both higher and lower than man. Because of the man-ape reference and the talk about knowledge, I suspect this individual sees the spawn of Satan as lower than man, but somehow also smarter. Which is a contradiction in his story. Some apes are more powerful than man, but lower because of intelligence. If some apes were smarter than us, like Satan they would be considered ‘higher’.


Now if I heard this and knew nothing else about the Bible or God or Jesus, and assuming this sermon starts with or at least covers Adam being made in God's image (which is a crucial point of the creation story BTW), my first thought would be “well am I descended from Satan through Eve or from Adam” and “how would I know”. Am I made in the image of God or the image of Satan? In fact if I believed what this man said I would be compelled and could not rest after hearing this until I asked this man how we could know which we were. And note that we have no choice in this, we would be born either the spawn of Satan or made in the Image of God. After getting my answer, I am going to be either very happy or extremely upset and there is nothing I can do about it either way.

I also still see a huge problem with seeing another man as having the same diginity as me if I believe that man to be the spawn of Satan and not made in the Image of God.

 

[prodromos]

Genesis specifically states that Cain is the offspring of Adam and Eve. If we follow the logic put forward by Gentileone then it is Abel who has the possibility of not being from Adam, not Cain. I'm afraid I'm at a complete loss as to how Gentileone arrives at the conclusion he does regarding Cain.

John

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Agreed John and we alluded to this earlier. When pressed people I have known with this or similar beliefs basically say Eve, have already been "beguiled" by(read have sex with) the serpent, then lies to her mate and Adam just thinks Cain is his.

That was why I brought up the point that is interesting to see how people that read these very literally to reach a particular conclusion have a peculiar tendency to carefully pick what is strictly literal for them and what is not. Obviously they cannot take verse 3.1 literally and still reach the conclusion they have.

It is the same reason why serpent - then man-ape that is Satan having sex with Eve seem contradictory and anything but literal conclusions to me.

Also I think it is a contradiction to say Cain is the Son of Satan, while still believing all men are made equal and deserving of the same respect/dignity because we are ALL made "in His Image."

 

[Gentileone]

Thanx again form your thoughts Dr
May i ask how old you are?

prodomas
Cain is not in Adams Geneoligy that is the conclusion
Can you please show why he is of Adam, and were does it say it in scripture?


Dr
They are some very good pionts and i thankyou for them, i got some homework to do now

So i hope to reply soon


God Bless you all

Ps thank for keeping to the facts Dr and being respectfull.

 

[prodromos]

Cain is not in Adams Geneoligy that is the conclusion
Can you please show why he is of Adam, and were does it say it in scripture?

Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and brought forth Cain and said, I have gained a man through God.

May I ask what geneology you are referring to?

John.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Thanks again John, He will most likely come back with Luke 3:37 which gives the genealogy of Jesus back to Adam (through Seth) and reading some significance in that Cain is left out, though clearly Adam had other children besides Cain and Seth. Am not sure what we are to think of the “offspring” of those other Children of Adam since they are “not in the lineage” either.

Even though there are obvious problems with that conclusion, this is just another example of where a strict literal reading and then personal “interpretation” of such passages allows people to draw conclusions that they want to draw.

No where in the Bible does it say Cain is the Son of Satan, yet to "prove" it we will use only a very strict and literal reading of "select" scripture (and ignoring others) and then draw or infer a very non-literal conclusion from those texts. An interpretation, which IMO, we wanted to reach in the first place so we selectively picked and interpreted passages to get to our “conclusion”.

The people who orginated and teach such thoughts (again not refering to Gentile1) started with how do we explain there being so much evil in the World. How did everything go seemingly overnight from perfect (Adam and Eve) to bad (read evil - Cain).

To the original proponents of these ideas (again not GentileOne) it has at heart a racism that they wished to justify. If they could define the human race as being some inherently good (from Adam) and some inherently bad (spawn of Satan) then they could "Biblically" justify how they felt about certain human races. As I originally tried to tell him, these ideas are not new, at least as old as the reformation, probably a little older.