Original Sin ??

[Gentileone]

Thanks again John, He will most likely come back with Luke 3:37 which gives the genealogy of Jesus back to Adam (through Seth) and reading some significance in that Cain is left out, though clearly Adam had other children besides Cain and Seth. Am not sure what we are to think of the “offspring” of those other Children of Adam since they are “not in the lineage” either.

Dr , you are begining to make me wonder, i would have thought that understood by now not to assume .
Nope I wasnt going to come back with Luke 3:37 for the record, but close just not that scripture.
I see your post are not going to change with opinions you keep posting, when I have ask you to keep to the facts and stay on topic.
If you wish to converse with John with your notions please do them else where.
This is a discussion on what the Original Sin is, not to theorise on ppl's opinions but to understand and put your view across not to slot them into one of those 'types' which i find what are diong is to demoralise ppl.

Thanx for your co-operation DrBubbalove

 

[Gentileone]

Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and brought forth Cain and said, I have gained a man through God.

May I ask what geneology you are referring to?

John.

Hello

Were i get my understanding from John is from here.
Ill start from here coz it answers one of Dr Questions.

Gen 4:11
And now [art] thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;


This shows the reader that God loved Cain until he commited evil and then still showed compassion, Love if you will.

Gen 4:15
And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

interesting that, God out a mark on Cain.
Shows that God still Loved Cain, When Cain killed Abel God did not kill Cain did he?
But punished Cain.
That also shows us they were loved equally.
God punished Adam and he wasnt killed either, God so loved Adam.

Now notice; Gen 4:17
The decendants of Cain are seperate from the generations of Adam,
Gen 5:1 and onwords
Why is that? why are they seperate from each other.
My family tree would not invovle your family tree, would it?

In Gen 5:1 and onwords, Why isnt Cain included in the generations.
Ok you say nor were others, Where does it say there were others, other-then Cain and Abel.
Ok you might say then, Abel wasnt there either.
Did Abel have any generations. Nope he was dead.

Ok watch closely
Gen 5:3
And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

Why does he put it this way?
Why does it read in his own likeness, after his kind.
What other kind was there?
What other likeness was there?
This says there are more than Adams likeness and his Kind.

Gen 6:1 to 8
1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.

Here we see God decribing another race of ppl; Giants.
Also we see God saying "The Sons God came in unto the daughters of men"
Also he says "mighty men which were of old, men of renown"
Gen 4:22 men of renown=instructer of every artificer in brass and iron.
So here we see they were very smart they had knowledge,(tree of knowledge).
Were they inferior , doesnt seem to me that they were.
Were lessed loved by God, doesnt seem to me.
Look how God loved lamech Gen 4:23 after he slain a man.

Did any of Adam's generation in that time frame Kill?
They behaved in different ways as we read.
Why did they behave differently?
Do you behave the same as me, nope coz we have different fathers.
Its quite simple and self explanatory, when it has been led by the Holy Spirit, other then being led by man or told you must just believe what a man says.
All men are liers/decievers but God is truth, he cannot lie.

God Bless you and thanx for asking

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Ok, GentileOne, it is your thread; I will try to keep myself in check. Sorry, but the idea that not all men are equal just jumps out at me from such thinking.

These are ancient traditions of the Hebrew people. Perhaps we should consider more what these symbols might represent to them, rather than insert our own understanding into their story.

The Hebrew word for Adam, means literally man. Which is fitting to be used in the story of God's creation of "man". Seth essentially means the same thing, man. Cain means spear or possession.


Cain clearly represents initially people with more sedentary lifestyle (farmers) as opposed to Abel being a shepard. He rebelled and is then seen being exiled to being a nomad, representing the patriarch of nomadic peoples. It was a way including in this story an explanation of the origins of what in ancient times were the two main ways of living. Daddy how come some people settle down in one place and others wander like us? Well you see son, in the beginning........ Besides, if you believe in a large-scale flood removing almost all of these people, the evilness of Cain and his descendants ended. Which BTW is prehaps one explanation as to why Cain's lineage stops after about six generations, which is something else your theory does not address.


While the two groups, nomads and sedentary folk, would each consider their particular lifestyle superior, that idea does not mean these verses are a reflection on different genetic origins of each. If you believe this to be the Inspired Word of God (and I think we all certainly do), then it would have to also been considered the same for the people that gave it to us. To my knowledge it was and is Inspired to them as well. Am aware of no Hebrew tradition that says or even suggests that Cain is the son of Satan.

There are other difficulties with your position of Cain being the son of Satan. Verses 6 and 7
6 So the LORD said to Cain: "Why are you so resentful and crestfallen?
7 If you do well, you can hold up your head; but if not, sin is a demon lurking at the door: his urge is toward you, yet you can be his master."

That pasage suggests to me that Cain could not be the son of Satan, for if He was the Lord just lied to him about being able to master sin. I do not think the “son of Satan” would want to master sin, much less be able to if he did want to. The Lord clearly indicates Cain could master it.

 

[Gentileone]

thanks for understanding

I will answer those but im just having a bit of a rest for the weekend and i will get to it on monday.

God bless

 

[Suzannah]

/mod hat :

I've been reading this thread for a few days. I realize that no one has actually stated in so many words that the "seed" of Cain led to racial divisions, the "Serpent seed" doctrine. I am also not accusing anyone of promoting this. But I do need to say, that such a doctrine is not in keeping with the mission of CF and it is considered heretical by mainstream Christianity. Here at CF, we consider it a violation of Rules 2.1 and 2.3. In that light, we at CF would appreciate it if everyone would steer clear of this doctrine.

Again, I am not accusing anyone or judging anyone. I just have to say it. I hope this discussion continues in a fruitful and loving way, and that all involved learn from one another.

God bless you.

/mod hat off.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Hello

Were i get my understanding from John is from here.
Ill start from here coz it answers one of Dr Questions.

Gen 4:11
And now [art] thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;


This shows the reader that God loved Cain until he commited evil and then still showed compassion, Love if you will.

First I want to say that the writer witnessed none of these events we are reading or quoting. This is a recorded version of oral Hebrew tradition, full of Hebrew meaning and symbols. Adam means "man", so does Seth. Cain means spear or possession, Nod – the “land of exile”. The story contains many truths, but it was not meant to to convey a strict blow-by-blow account of a series of events as if a reporter had recorded it as a witness. So each verse carries the rich symbology of any story from tradition. You cannot ignore the symbols and attempt to insert more meaning in the verses than was ever intended by the tellers of these stories.

Our understanding of the chap4 works equally well with our saying all men, even Cain, are made in God's image. So all men are equally deserving of both His Love and our love.
How could God love Adam and a son of Satan equally?

Since a son of Satan is not made in God's Image, how could such a son be equally deserving of our love as a man made in God's Image?

Since Satan is angel and as such is a purely spiritual being, at most he could possess a human male body and use it to rape a woman. The child from that unholy union would still be the seed of a man.

Gen 4:15
And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

interesting that, God out a mark on Cain.
Shows that God still Loved Cain, When Cain killed Abel God did not kill Cain did he?
But punished Cain.
That also shows us they were loved equally.
God punished Adam and he wasnt killed either, God so loved Adam.

Technically, we could say Adam was killed for his sin in that he lost immortality of the body.
Cain cries out to God and God shows him mercy by lending some measure of protection. That does not require a belief in or even suggest to me a son of Satan. In fact once again, we would say Cain is made in God's Image fits here too, with God showing the same Mercy and Love He gives towards all men.

Now notice; Gen 4:17
The decendants of Cain are seperate from the generations of Adam,
Gen 5:1 and onwords
Why is that? why are they seperate from each other.
My family tree would not invovle your family tree, would it?

Why separate? Because Cain and his generation are UNDERSTOOD by the storyteller and his audience to be wicked, so the story alludes to them being SEPERATE. Wicked people and good people do not normally hang out together.
In regard to family trees; No, we believe all men descend from Adam, so our family trees are really branches going back to one man. So yes in that sense your "tree" and my "tree" as part of humanity are the same tree. Which is why we are all made in "His Image" with all the dignity and deserving of respect that fact requires from all of us.

The distinction is indeed made between the two lines, but why read more into that than what we know.

16 Cain then left the LORD'S presence and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden.

I do not think any reasonable reading of that combined with the curse in 14 to mean anything but Cain and his descendents are wicked people. He turns his back on the Lord and went into exile. Land of Nod, am told in Hebrew meant "land of exile". We have several examples in the OT of God destroying wicked people. See nothing here that requires me to believe Cain and his descendents were anything other than just wicked people that wished to further seperate themselves from God. The story shows wicked people living seperate from good people.

In Gen 5:1 and onwords, Why isnt Cain included in the generations.

Ok you say nor were others, Where does it say there were others, other-then Cain and Abel.
Ok you might say then, Abel wasnt there either.
Did Abel have any generations. Nope he was dead.

4)Adam lived eight hundred years after the birth of Seth, and he had other sons and daughters.
We do not know specifically what happened to "Cains generations" or those of these "other" children because it does not tell us. There is no reason to assume anything about an end to Cain and in his descendents in this story. This is a story from the traditions of the Hebrew people. When telling such stories they choose, as most people would, to focus on what happened with their forefathers rather than spend a lot of time addressing all lines descending from Adam or what happened to every man living before them. What happened to Cain teaches a truth. Since the storyteller does not see himself as descending from Cain, the story moves on and the character (Cain and his people) having served to illustrate a truth eventually drop out of the story. Note none of these "other" children are mentioned or developed either.

Ok watch closely

Gen 5:3
And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

Why does he put it this way?
Why does it read in his own likeness, after his kind.
What other kind was there?
What other likeness was there?
This says there are more than Adams likeness and his Kind.

Why? Because it was understood by the storyteller and his audience that Seth was not wicked like Cain, he was more like Adam. Seth did not turn completely away from God like Cain did. Which means while still capable of sin Seth, like Adam and UNLIKE CAIN, did not give himself completely over to it. For the storyteller this was a critical point, because later the lead characters and then finally the father of thier "race" is understood to descend not from wicked people, but from GOOD people. People that would turn towards God. The storyteller builds on this idea of good people being seperate from wicked. The story does this to show/address the origins before Abraham of thier own race.

What "other kind" of people were there in this story? Apparently wicked people like Cain.

What "other likeness" in this story? Apparently wicked people, in the likeness of Cain.

Agreed it says some people were more wicked than others. A point later clearly brought out when several times, various groups of people are so wicked that God destroys them all or threatens to.

Gen 6:1 to 8
1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.

Here we see God decribing another race of ppl; Giants.
Also we see God saying "The Sons God came in unto the daughters of men"

Also he says "mighty men which were of old, men of renown"

There be giants in the Land! The storyteller is including known elements into the story to explain/introduce what is even known today. Some people, even some races, are taller than others. We are all different. Even secular history includes other races that had great civilizations and were mighty and fierce warriors. The storyteller is not interested in these other races at the moment, but is telling a story of creation and relating it to the beginnings of his own race. The fact that there would be heros and other nations/peoples/races that were very different than the Hebrew, the children of Abraham, these facts and stories about these other races would be known to the storyteller and his audience. No reason given or for us to assume these references convey the storyteller believed some demonic source for their being genetic differences among humans or other great civilizations, with mighty warriors, heros, tall people...etc. From what is recorded there were apparently more tall people before the flood than after, but we see very tall people again after the flood, some even being the sworn enemies of Israel. We have very tall races today and some half that height, the shorter race would in the days of this storyteller naturally consider these people twice thier size to be "giants". Again no reason to see demons there today with tall people, and certainly nothing here suggesting that the storyteller thought so then.

Following what I said earlier, there is no reason to think anything of this inter-marriage other than simple human nature. As people multiply, they would have to spread out to survive. Some sons of good men would naturally meet/see daughters of wicked men, find them attractive and inter-marry with them. It is what people do. The storyteller and the audience would both understand this to be a BAD thing. Just like today, to intermingle or even regularly associate with wicked people would be understood to be bad, much less to marry one. They would not see this as a story about demon seed. The point of even mentioning this inter-marriage is the reinforcement of being careful who you associate with and illustrate the potential outcome if you do not heed such warnings. A CRUCIAL and IMPORTANT emphasis, an ancient TRADITION of the Hebrew race, the people we get this story from, is that they were to be a Godly (GOOD) people, seperate from the wicked. Naturally they would see themselves as descending from Good people which is what Seth represents for them in this story.

Gen 4:22 men of renown=instructer of every artificer in brass and iron.
So here we see they were very smart they had knowledge,(tree of knowledge).
Were they inferior , doesnt seem to me that they were.
Were lessed loved by God, doesnt seem to me.
Look how God loved lamech Gen 4:23 after he slain a man.

Did any of Adam's generation in that time frame Kill?
They behaved in different ways as we read.
Why did they behave differently?
Do you behave the same as me, nope coz we have different fathers.
Its quite simple and self explanatory, when it has been led by the Holy Spirit, other then being led by man or told you must just believe what a man says.
All men are liers/decievers but God is truth, he cannot lie.

God Bless you and thanx for asking

I never said Cain's descendents were inferior, in fact quite the opposite - because they are men they are equal to all men. I think they were wicked. Like all men, God loves the wicked as well as the good. Because all men, even the wicked, are made in His Image we are required to love them as we love ourselves too! If there were sons of Satan, I cannot for the life of me understand how you could feel that God would want us to love them just like other sons of Adam (which again means "sons of man" BTW).

What I said was this; never mind that it is not possible, but a "demon seed" coming from some combination of an ape-man/demon/Satan having sex with Eve would have to produce either a sub-(from the ape side) or super-human (from the angel side). So even if it were possible, such a union could not produce something equal to man. Nor could it produce something made in God's Image. But again, we must say a spirit, having no body, cannot impregnate a human. That act requires a human male body.

Cain's descendents behave differently because the storyteller wishes to distinguish them from his own ancestors. The teller obviously sees his own ancestors as not wicked people, so they came from Seth. Good (Seth) and wicked (Cain). Why does it have to be more complicated than that?

For a nice discussion on what you are dealing with here and how we view it, see a Catholic Encyclopedia article on demonology;
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04713a.htm
It is very extensive and discusses several variations and origins of such theories as yours.
And God bless you and yours too GentileOne.
I am 45.

 

[Gentileone]

Cain clearly represents initially people with more sedentary lifestyle (farmers) as opposed to Abel being a shepard. He rebelled and is then seen being exiled to being a nomad, representing the patriarch of nomadic peoples. It was a way including in this story an explanation of the origins of what in ancient times were the two main ways of living. Daddy how come some people settle down in one place and others wander like us? Well you see son, in the beginning........ Besides, if you believe in a large-scale flood removing almost all of these people, the evilness of Cain and his descendants ended. Which BTW is prehaps one explanation as to why Cain's lineage stops after about six generations, which is something else your theory does not address.

Well thanx for asking Dr
First ive highlighted the statesments you have made.

So you are suggesting its a story, thats fine you can have that assumption.
God made all things thru his son, including the bible.

Now as for Cains lineage, well your showing a lack of knowledge ( not to be taken as attacking you, sorry if you feel that way).
Noah son was married to who?? and who was she??
Cains lineage never stoped and still to this day.

While the two groups, nomads and sedentary folk, would each consider their particular lifestyle superior, that idea does not mean these verses are a reflection on different genetic origins of each. If you believe this to be the Inspired Word of God (and I think we all certainly do), then it would have to also been considered the same for the people that gave it to us. To my knowledge it was and is Inspired to them as well. Am aware of no Hebrew tradition that says or even suggests that Cain is the son of Satan.

There is such evidence anywhere that one is greater than the other, that is your assumption.
God still gives all the oppertunity to come with Jesus or to the Devil even until this day.
Now you are saying it is of God, the inspired word. But in your next post you say it is,First I want to say that the writer witnessed none of these events we are reading or quoting. This is a recorded version of oral Hebrew tradition, full of Hebrew meaning and symbols.
Jesus did say "you are of your father"( father meaning satan),
Now this is spiritual and so is Cain is of the devil (father) and his blood is of the a woman and beast.

There are other difficulties with your position of Cain being the son of Satan. Verses 6 and 7
6 So the LORD said to Cain: "Why are you so resentful and crestfallen?

We all have a chioce to be of God or be of the Devil, Cain chose thats why he is crest fallen.

7 If you do well, you can hold up your head; but if not, sin is a demon lurking at the door: his urge is toward you, yet you can be his master."

God is encouraging Cain stay on the right path, and then warns if he doesnt.
This is were Cain has a right to choose, God has given Cain the same as we all have been given, the devil has every right to take you if you do not want to have God as your father.
Therefore we as non Jewish people can have the same promise as the Jews have got ,Eternal life with our Father.

That pasage suggests to me that Cain could not be the son of Satan,(Literally no but spiritually YES, the beast is Cain's Father) for if He was the Lord just lied to him about being able to master sin( Cannot you or the Jewish or anybody? why cant Cain why cant anybody). I do not think the “son of Satan” would want to master sin, much less be able to if he did want to( why not if he wants to be evil why wouldnt he? according to your statement). The Lord clearly indicates Cain could master it.[/QUOTE]
Once again God is telling Cain that you can beat the devil and have eternal life and partake of the promise to all.

Thanks once again Dr

God Bless

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Ok, maybe i misunderstood you.



Understood you to say basically Satan had sex with Eve, and Cain was conceived. And Satan did that or was able to that somehow in the form of some ape-man.



So my assumption was you believed the genetic, physcial make-up of Cain was different from Abel who we both agree was conceived from the sperm of Adam.



Now you just said something different I think. You said Satan was only a "spiritual father" of Cain. So I am a little confused. Which is it, Does Cain have a spiritual father, as in following wickedness as opposed to following God (to which I could agree) or was Cain the genetic outcome of some unholy union with a demon or both?

I am lost in understanding your view, where did I loose you?

 

[Gentileone]

Hee Hee

Cain is from Eve and the beast as i have said before.

Abel is from Adam and Eve.

Cain chose to deny God therefore he is of Satan

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Ok, so Cain has Satan as both his physical and spiritual Father.

So Satan created Cain?

 

[Gentileone]

All things are made by Jesus for he is the word and the way unto everlasting life and all things are created by him, Amen

Nope Satan did not create cain not in the way like God creates if that is what you are asking.
Satan has no power but perverts what God has done.
Dont be confused from what is spiritual and what is not.
Cain has a spiritual father and its satan.
If you are of God he is you spiritual Father, God is also your maker, also is your physical Father for God made us all.

like i said before , Eve was beguiled(intercourse) by the beast, Cain is of the beast and Eve, Satan is Cain 's spiritual father because Cain chose not to follow God.

This is how i understand it !

Thanx for asking
God Bless


As Gentiles we have every right to be with God or choose not to.
As Jewish they have every right to be with God or choose not to aswell.

Paul was sent to the Gentiles.

Therefore we see its not only the catholics people, but Gentiles that have every right to enter heaven providing they do what God asks.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Have lost you again or you lost me. You said that Cain was both sired by and has as his "spiritual" father Satan. You said that Cain and this demon-seed he passes on have basically the same right to choose Satan or God as "pure" men (sons of men).

But then you say Satan did not create Cain. I see no reason to think God made demon-human crossbreed in this creation story, so such a thing if it exists came from somewhere. Where did it come from?

God created man with both a "human" body and an immortal "human" spirit/soul. God said it is Good that He did so. I believe that even though he gave us the ability to procreate, that ability is something we only are required to cooperate with and would not possible WITHOUT God. So that means it is God that creates each man and woman, ALL of us. I believe He says it is Good that He made each of us, or else we would not be here. Which flows right into the dignity that each man has, which DEMANDS my respect of that dignity in ALL MEN, because of Who it is that gave that dignity to each of us.


Satan and all angels were created "higher" than man. We do not agree what that means, but it is enough for me to know that they are very different (it does say much more powerful and intelligent than us). Obviously we believe angels are purely spiritual beings, having no physical body like ours. You and others (including Mormons) disagree with me on that point.

To me there are only two possibilities that make sense for your version of creation to work. Satan is able to create by changing his own nature. Thus like Jesus, Satan "becomes" a man and is able to produce offspring with Eve. - Or - Satan is like God and able to use his own power to create life in the womb of Eve to produce Cain, like God did with Mary to create the man Jesus.

Both versions have a problem in my mind with saying that a being created by God can change the very nature of creation itself. It makes a created being another creator. Mormons are fine with that but in my experience most Christians are not. Some Christians like yourself are ok with it and we discuss that here.

In my understanding, created beings cannot change the nature of creation. That power is an attribute of only the Creator. Angels can appear to change their nature by 'taking' forms, but they are still angels even while in that “form”. As a spirit that is their nature and they cannot change that. They can easily fool us because they are smarter and more powerful than us.


The first version also has the double problem that if a spirit (like Jesus was) "becomes" man that spirit must either change it's very nature or be both "spirit" and man at the same time. In Jesus case at least we know that He has two natures. Divine from God and human from Mary. So Jesus has both a human body and soul(spirit) thus He is a Man and He also retains His Divinity (a Divine Spirit). Again both abilities imply creative abilities most of us normally only attribute to the Creator. Again you and other Christians, along with Mormons are ok with that.

If we say Satan changes his nature, changes the way God made him, "creating" himself anew somehow from a purely spiritual nature into a man, then he had to create both a human body and somehow either transform his spirit into a human soul for that body he made or get a human soul somehow from God. Making a body and a soul is a creative process. Getting a soul from God would be something that is impossible for me to imagine God cooperating in.


If we say Satan somehow watches God, copies Him by creating his own man (body and human soul) and then becomes that man in the same sense as Jesus were the man Satan, then he now has two natures (evil angel and human man). And again just like God with Mary, which would be a creative process. And again we have a problem IMO with the soul part. We are saying Satan creates, just like God he breaths an immortal human soul into this lifeless body he just made.

I believe Satan to be very powerful and purely evil, no good in him. Which creates another problem for me with both those scenarios. If God made man in His Image and that Image is Good (IMO corrupt now in the flesh but still some Good - in the soul), then how could Satan, who has no good in him, be said to make a man, something that God says is Good and even after the fall has some Good in it? (goes back to the dignity thing). Participating in making something Good is not something I can imagine Satan doing. So if this unholy thing is possible, the resulting “man” if you want to call it that, cannot be Good, of His Image in any way. Thus not deserving of my respect as a “man”


To me it is debatable whether this ability of angels, all spirits to take forms involves reshaping/manipulate physical matter already created by God and available to them, taking whatever material to make and then animate the form like a puppet master or if it is just an ability to locally influence our perception of realty. I think we cannot know for sure in this life, but either way that ability does not rise to the level of creation no matter how perfect or real the forms seem to us (or the writers of the OT). I do think spirits, angels and demons including Satan are very real, present with us, can and do still interact and influence us. I do not think they can change the very nature of what they are, so they remain the way God made them. They can also not change the nature of other things, because it is God that makes everything. Changing the nature of something would be a creative ability most Christians attribute only to God.

Acknowledge and understand some Christians disagree and believe as the Mormons do that angels can do much more, they can create. Not sure then how you keep them from being gods or distinguish them from the Divine, which is where the Mormons go with this. Naturally Christains do not believe in created things being able to become gods, creators themselves.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Therefore we see its not only the catholics people, but Gentiles that have every right to enter heaven providing they do what God asks.

Forgive me if I ever gave you either the impression or feeling that you or anyone else does not have a hope to Heaven. We all lost the "right" when Adam sinned. Jesus made it possible for all to regain that right. I do not think ignorance will be held against anyone. God says every one is born with the ability to know in our heart what is right and what is wrong. So no one has an excuse or can claim mercy out of ignorance.

The Church has indeed been accused of saying no one but Catholics will go to Heaven. However, that is a misunderstanding and a misrepresentation of what the Church has always taught. God is Love and a God of Mercy. Millions have lived and died without ever hearing the Word or being exposed to Catholic Doctrine. If I make it to Heaven I fully expect and the Church teaches that some of those will indeed be there.

So please do not take anything I say, even about Mormonism, to conclude that I think or that the Church teaches there is no salvation/redemption possible for non-Catholics. You confuse us with small minority of Protesting brothers who do absolutely claim such things.

If it sounds like my posts say this to you, you need to ask me to clarify because it just is not true. You give me no reason to even speculate on your status, which is between God and yourself anyway. Have enough on my mind keeping my self straight with God.

 

[Suzannah]

/mod hat:

I appreciate the civility that, for the most part, has reigned in this thread. However, the "demon seed" doctrine is one which, in addition to being considered unorthodox by mainstream Christianity, is also diametrically opposed to CF's mission, which is to unite all Christians.
I am therefore, moving this thread to the Unorthodox Theology Forum, so that you may continue, however, this doctrine will not be allowed in the Christian only areas. Thank you for your understanding and I hope that you will all continue to grow and learn in Christ. God bless.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

bump - whered u go GentileOne?

 

[Dottie]

Hi All

I would like to to find what you ppl's think how Eve then Adam sinned.

What is Eve sin ?

What is Adam's ?

How did they actually sin ?

We do know it wasnt an apple or an actual fruit, but what was it ?

Any comments are welcome and this thread is not to start a slinging match,
only to find out what you think with scriptures in a mature way for an open discussion. Thanks


I hope to read all of your responses

God Bless

In my opinion we would be more apt to understand chapters two and three of Genesis by putting the whole of these two chapters in parenthesis, and going on from chapter one of Genesis to chapter four.

" And God said, Let us make 'adam in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

So God created 'adam in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

And 'adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord."

My reasoning on this is, that since we have been given two accounts of the creation of man, and since the accounts are different, both of them can not be literal. One or the other of them has to be metaphorical. Common reasoning tells me that it would be the story of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden that is the metaphor. Therefore, there would be no such thing as the "original sin".

~ Dottie ~

 

[Gentileone]

Hi Dr
ok first i would like to say i agree and if i have given you the idea that Satan or any of his followers can have sexual relations with humans.
I believe they cannot have real;ations with humans.

I did say however that the beast which was later transformed into a snake, had relations with Eve producing Cain.

I hope that clears that up for you on this point.
As far as Catholics are going to Heaven only, we dont want to go there , other then what you have said and I do respect what you have said, also understand some havent quite have the truth as you may have!
I believe we are all Gentiles other than the Jewish nation.

One must have to consider the fact why did the Jew"s kill so many different races(gentiles).And some were even allowed to encamp with the Jews.

When you look at the whole bible the you can see how it dovetails together.
But to just pull out the first few books of Moses is where all the different understandings come from.

Also I might just add that the bride might be decieved if it were at all possible;
Matt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. also in ........
Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.
We see here that no unclean spirit can decieve the bride(elect)

God Bless.

 

[Gentileone]

In my opinion we would be more apt to understand chapters two and three of Genesis by putting the whole of these two chapters in parenthesis, and going on from chapter one of Genesis to chapter four.

" And God said, Let us make 'adam in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

So God created 'adam in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

And 'adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord."

My reasoning on this is, that since we have been given two accounts of the creation of man, and since the accounts are different, both of them can not be literal. One or the other of them has to be metaphorical. Common reasoning tells me that it would be the story of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden that is the metaphor. Therefore, there would be no such thing as the "original sin".

~ Dottie ~

Thankyou Dottie.
I havent quite heard that one before and completely understand what you are saying.

First, God made man in his image, what was God's image?
Second God made Adam out ground etc
Eve was made from Adams rib etc.

God Blew into Adam nostrill's, at that point is were adam came to life on earth and this is were we see Gods image/man come into the body.
Jesus said i knew you before the foundations of the earth.

As for the sin well may i ask how did death enter into the human race becuase God made us perfect, to live for ever and ever.

Also the books of Moses does not give all the clues on how God created man and the fall of man.

Thankyou again Dottie for sharing your understandings for you are most welcome here.

God Bless

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Also I might just add that the bride might be decieved if it were at all possible;
Matt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. also in ........
Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.
We see here that no unclean spirit can decieve the bride(elect)

God Bless.

If it were not possible, what is the point of the passage? I think saying "if it were possible" just indicates that it is not possible to deceive ALL of the elect.

If it were not possible to deceive any, then you make it say the false-Christ can only deceive those that are not really believers anyway. How would it be deception to deceive someone who was not a believer anyway?

 

[james1]

IN THE BEGINNING/IN THE GARDEN​

What was the first historically recorded choice of our first parents? We read of Mother Eve that:

"…she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat…" (Gen. 3:6).



​

But was this the first choice and the first sin attributed to our Mother Eve? No, it wasn’t the first. It was not even the second, or the third choice.


It is generally taught that Adam and Eve were spiritually perfect immediately after their creation, seeing that it says,

"And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good…" (Gen. 1:31).



​

Never mind the fact that even poisonous snakes were also "very good." Of course everything God made was "good." It was, in fact, even "perfect"—perfect, that is, for the purpose for which it was created.


But did our first parents have perfect and good spiritual character of heart when God completed them? Absolutely not! Far from it! They were as carnal-minded as any two people who have ever lived.

The Scriptures show us that Eve committed every known category of sin there is, before she ever ate of the forbidden fruit. This one should knock your socks off. It knocked mine off when I first discovered it.

I will get back to you later!!