Original Sin and baptism?

[Lockheed]

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Why can "no one...come to me", why does the Father have to draw someone?

Which CoC there are a few bearing that title. For the most part all i've seen on that site is pretty orthodox except for baptismal regeneration. Guess you should go through it and nit pick it.

Yes, the CoC which promotes baptismal salvation (not regeneration per-se, they believe that baptism is necessary for salvation).... The Lutheran church teaches God regenerates through baptism, this CoC teaches that God won't save you unless your baptized. Lutherans don't teach that.

BTW, believing that one MUST be baptized to be saved denies the Protestant (and Baptist) view of grace and puts one squarely in the Pelagian camp. This isn't nit-picking, these are the facts.

Quite the opposite I attend a southern baptist church and goto the heavily reformed Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

And what is their view of the CoC which you're using as a guide?

I dont see the need to here at this point. I am still investigating all of its claims so I choose not to debate it here. If one wants to be calvinist, fine, if one wants to be arminian fine. I see God as sovriegn and in control.

Please define God's "Sovereignty".

He is the one who saves not Me. I believe I have the ability to become an apostate should I choose though I cannot imagine ever doing so.

And what does this have to do with the topic?

 

[Lockheed]

Original sin does not exist. See Ezekiel 18:20 for details.

No person is born contaminated with any kind of sin. Infants and small children are pure and sinless in the sight of God. Jesus tells us this is so in Matthew 18:10 with "Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven." I believe we would all agree that nothing unclean can enter Heaven, and yet the "angles" of infants and small children do always behold the face of God. That tells me they are sinless during the first two stages of their life, infanthood and small childhood.

I see, so infants and babies don't need a Savior? Is it really your position that babies and small children are able to perfectly keep the Law of God?

Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
​

Are the wicked "sinless" in infanthood and childhood?

In Psalm 51, wherein David laments his sinfulness and his immoral behavior cries out to God:

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

​

Was David "sinless" in infanthood and early childhood? Did David, as a baby, need a Savior?

But man does have a propencity for sin. We develop a liking for sin.

Where did man get a "propensity" for sin? Do infants and children have a propensity, "an innate inclination", for sin?

God says, through His prophets, that the wicked "come forth from the womb speaking lies".

Sinful things feel good to us, generally speaking. And, as we mature out of our childhood, each of us gravitates to that sinful nature. At what age does that happen? There is no set age. For some it might be during their first decade of life. However, I firmly believe virtually all humans have attained a sinful nature by the end of their second decade of life. By then they have developed the ability to distinguish between right and wrong, good and evil, or acceptable and unacceptable.

Could you possibly provide any Bible verses that actually say what you're claiming here?

So, at some age, we all become sinners. That is our nature.

When do children get this "nature"? On what Bible passages do you base this belief?

If it is someone's nature to sin, are they not born in a state of sin? Please explain what you're saying here.

And, althought it is not "inherrited" from Adam or any other person, it does appear to be "inherent" in our existence.

The Bible says: "by one man's disobedience the many were made sinners", please explain your view in light of this fact.

The only baptism that matters to God is spiritual baptism by the Holy Spirit. All the water in the world, poured, sprinkled or used for dunking, cannot attain that "Spirit" baptism. Only heart-felt belief in Jesus will cause it to happen.Matthan <J><

So it is your view that God baptizes you in the Spirit as a result of your belief in Him?

Please explain this in light of Romans 8:7-9 that explains that unless a person already has the Spirit of God they cannot please God.

 

[benlym]

-We have to take into account we are made in the image of God.. and he understands human feelings and emotions.. oviously babies and kids under the age of being able to understand the concept of Jesus and how he died on the cross for our sins; despite of the fact they are unsaved and died will most likely go to heaven .. REMEMBER GOD HAS THE FINAL AUTHORITY ON ALL MATTERS dspite what we think...

 

[aReformedPatriot]

Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
​

In Psalm 51, wherein David laments his sinfulness and his immoral behavior cries out to God:

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
​

​

Immediatly if we come to these scriptures in a literal sense there are problems. In the first psalm one is endowed with sin the moment they are born wherein the second psalm the baby is endowed with sin at conception. Contradiction? Which is it? The second problem comes into play with the first psalm. Do you really believe that babies are born able to speak?

A rule of biblical interpretation is to know what type of genre your dealing with. Psalms are poetry therefore they contain commissive language that plays the emotions. Much like the proverbs, they are good rules of thumb but they are not always literally fulfilled.

Perhaps David when he laments of his sin in psalm 51 is being a little emotional and really general? Perhaps the poetry in Song of Solomon where his woman's breasts are like ample mountains. Hyperbole and exxageration is not uncommon in scripture.

Eze 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
- perhaps were responsible for our own actions.

Isa 7:15 He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good.
Isa 7:16 For before the boy knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land whose two kings you dread will be deserted.


Gen 8:21 When the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, He said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, even though man's inclination is evil from his youth. And I will never again strike down every living thing as I have done.

I am going to bow out of this thread now Lockheed, I have dilleberatly chosen to leave most of what you say alone because I dont want to get into all of it. Canadian you have my opinion on the matter. Once a child becomes accountible they will be heading to hell, prior to this they are secure, in my opinion.

Good Day to you.

Mark

 

[Lockheed]

Immediatly if we come to these scriptures in a literal sense there are problems. In the first psalm one is endowed with sin the moment they are born wherein the second psalm the baby is endowed with sin at conception. Contradiction? Which is it? The second problem comes into play with the first psalm. Do you really believe that babies are born able to speak?

Actually no, there is no problem. The Bible neither is unclear nor contradicts itself. The first Psalm does negate the other, as Scripture does not contradict itself. It is evident therefore that though 58:3 first tells us something, Psalm 51:5 tells us more about the same thing.

Thus "The wicked are estranged from the womb" is completely compatible with "in sin did my mother conceive me". In fact the two Psalms themselves are near mirror constructions of one another.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
​

In both psalms it is from the womb that we are estranged from God.

Secondly, yes, babies can communicate when they are born, in fact from the moment they are born babies make their presence known, usually loudly. They will cry when they're uncomfortable or when they want attention. Even if they are in no danger, no pain, and in no problems, babies will cry.

Do you doubt the psalmist? Do you not believe the words of the Holy Spirit who breathed these psalms? Is it that they do not conform to your view that you feel the need to characterize them as contradictory?

A rule of biblical interpretation is to know what type of genre your dealing with. Psalms are poetry therefore they contain commissive language that plays the emotions. Much like the proverbs, they are good rules of thumb but they are not always literally fulfilled.

Throughout the writings of the New Testament the psalms are used to support the claims of the author(s). Psalms just like these are used in Romans to express the sinfulness of mankind and the need for salvation. In fact it is the Psalms that Paul appeals to in order to prove the inability and sinfulness of mankind:

Rom 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
​

Here Paul quotes Psalm 14:3 and elsewhere, explaining that all mankind, Jews and Greeks are all under sin, yet no where does Paul make an exception for infants or children. In fact, moving into Romans 5, Paul develops the idea of federal headship in explaining where the condemnation and sinful nature come from: "through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners".

We are made sinners by Adam's disobedience.

Perhaps David when he laments of his sin in psalm 51 is being a little emotional and really general? Perhaps the poetry in Song of Solomon where his woman's breasts are like ample mountains. Hyperbole and exxageration is not uncommon in scripture.

It is therefore your view that David exaggerates the truth? That neither Psalm 51:5 nor 58:3 are true statements?

On what gramattical or contextual basis, excepting that your theology cannot deal with these verses, do you dismiss them as hyperbole?

It is true that in Psalm 51 David is lamenting his sin. In fact this is an excellent time to point out to others who may read that verse as claiming that David's mother was the one in sin, that David is referring to his own sinfulness. In reality, the psalmist is, by the Holy Spirit, revealing to us an aspect of the nature of mankind. Since we all far short of God's standard, all of us are therefore "wicked" and in desperate need of a Savior, infants and children included.

[quoet]Eze 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. [/quote]

Keep in mind that I'm not talking about inherited sin. Adam's sins aren't transferred to us but Adam represented us in the garden and we are all condemned with Him. As it is written, "through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men".

Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
- perhaps were responsible for our own actions.

In a sense we are. Each is responsible for the measure of revelation alloted to him or her by the will of God. Some will receive greater punishment due to their knowledge and continual rejection of the truth. Yet this in no way denies what Paul writes in Romans 5, we are still condemned by Adam's actions.

Isa 7:15 He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good.
Isa 7:16 For before the boy knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land whose two kings you dread will be deserted.

Yes, while this is a prophecy regarding Christ, this none-the-less explains that children can and do learn about good and evil. But the problem here is that God's Law exists, whether or not a person has the opportunity to keep it. God's Law demands that all men, regardless of age, love the Lord with all their heart etc. We all fall short from our conception because "in Adam, all die."

Gen 8:21 When the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, He said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, even though man's inclination is evil from his youth. And I will never again strike down every living thing as I have done.

How old is "youth"? Notice here that this verse clearly expresses that "man's inclination is evil from his youth", this is another aspect of what we're talking about. The reason "man's inclination is evil from his youth" is because all men fell in Adam, just as all who are in Christ are made alive.

This verse therefore is one that we 'Reformed' folks use to express what we're talking about when we're explaining 'total depravity' or 'total inability'. Man's inclination is evil from his youth... how young? "from the womb".

I am going to bow out of this thread now Lockheed, I have dilleberatly chosen to leave most of what you say alone because I dont want to get into all of it. Canadian you have my opinion on the matter. Once a child becomes accountible they will be heading to hell, prior to this they are secure, in my opinion.

Your opinion stands in stark contrast to the word of God. In fact this view necessitates two means of salvation... one by faith in God, by the power of God's Holy Spirit regerating those "dead in trespasses and sins" unto faith in Christ and another by death before some nebulous and unbiblical "age of accountability". This of course makes abortion the greatest heaven filler ever....