Original Sin and baptism?

[Canadian75]

What are your beliefs about original sin? I assume one who practices believer's baptism does not have the same view of original sin as do those who practice infant baptism (or at least Catholics).

I've been taught that the theological reason for infant baptism is to "wash away" original sin. In other words, those who are unbaptized are condemned because of the stain of original sin. This led to the whole limbo idea (ie, unbaptized babies and young children would not get into heaven because of original sin).

I have a hard time with that belief. I'm looking for other explainations for original sin that are scriptural and make sense. I know you don't believe baptism is necessary for salvation, so where does original sin come into play?

Peace.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I don't beleive in 'original sin' anymore. I do believe that we inherit a sinful nature, our humanity, and that we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God, and we are separated from God until we are born again. I believe Christ's sacririce was necessary to make salvation possible for us sinners.

But I don't believe there is 'original sin' that is removed with water baptism as an infant. Instead, our water baptism is to reflect the change inside of us that occurs with our rebirth - the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit. It is an outward sign of our committment to Christ.

Perhaps someone else can say it better.

 

[aReformedPatriot]

One need not worry about original sin as it is a farce. These 2 links I enjoy. I dont agree with everything he preaches on the website alltogether but for the most part he's very helpful.

http://www.christiancourier.com/archives/originalSin.htm

http://www.christiancourier.com/questions/psalm58.htm

 

[BBAS 64]

One need not worry about original sin as it is a farce. These 2 links I enjoy. I dont agree with everything he preaches on the website alltogether but for the most part he's very helpful.

http://www.christiancourier.com/archives/originalSin.htm

http://www.christiancourier.com/questions/psalm58.htm

Good Day, Lord's envoy

Farce

Define original sin from your point of view.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

I don't beleive in 'original sin' anymore. I do believe that we inherit a sinful nature, our humanity, and that we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God, and we are separated from God until we are born again. I believe Christ's sacririce was necessary to make salvation possible for us sinners.

But I don't believe there is 'original sin' that is removed with water baptism as an infant. Instead, our water baptism is to reflect the change inside of us that occurs with our rebirth - the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit. It is an outward sign of our committment to Christ.

Perhaps someone else can say it better.

Good Day, Freeinchrist

Hope you are well Sister as it has been a while. How can one belive in the results of original sin "sin Nature", and deny it's cause?


Peace to you,

Bill

 

[aReformedPatriot]

Good Day, Lord's envoy

Farce

Define original sin from your point of view.

Peace to u,

Bill

We are born with the propensity to sin, or have the sin nature, we are not born sinners and condemned to hell at birth. Those 2 articles sum up my thoughts.

 

[Lockheed]

The Bible states that "in Adam, all died".

Like the president of a country who, on behalf of his people, declares war on an other country, Adam fell in emnity with God. As Adam fell in enmity with God, so did we all. Thus each person is born at enmity with God and in desperate need of a Savior. The Bible says "through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men" and "through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners". From Adam's one transgression all men are justly condemned.

That is, God selected Adam to represent us all in the Garden. Adam did just what we all would have done and so we are all condemned. Just as the most innocent looking child born in a country at war is at war, so we all are born as "children of wrath" (Eph 2:3) needing salvation from the wrath of God.

Because Adam's transgression we all are seperated from God and in need or reconciliation. We add to that transgression with our own, proving our rebellious, sinful nature.

God graciously sent His Son Jesus as a "second Adam" to take upon Himself the trasgressions of His people and avert the wrath of God through the cross.

1Cor 15:45
So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
​

By His death we are reconciled to God, though we were transgressors and sinners from our very conception.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
​

As John Piper writes:

"If we don't understand "because all sinned" as "because all sinned in Adam," the entire comparison between Christ and Adam will be distorted and we won't see the greatness of justification by grace through faith for what it really is....

If Adam is the father of all human beings, and if the fundamental problem with all human beings is found in how we are related to Adam and what happened to us when Adam sinned, then everybody in the world, no matter when or where or who—whatever tribe or language or culture or ethnic identity—everybody has the same fundamental problem. And this means that if Jesus Christ is not just a Jew who died as a Jewish sacrifice for sins, but is also the "last Adam" or the "second man" (as Paul calls him in 1 Corinthians 15:45, 47), who provides a righteousness better than what we lost in Adam, then Jesus is no tribal God, or limited, local Savior. He is the one and only remedy for the divine judgment of condemnation that rests on every human soul. Which means he is a great Savior able to save persons from all times and all places and all peoples." - John Piper, "Adam, Christ, and Justification"
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/sermons/00/062500.html
​

As to the question of Baptism, the Bible states:

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
​

It is through the washing regeneration, aka "baptism of the Spirit", which Baptism symbolizes and identifies us with, that we are freed from the bondage of sin that is ours through Adam's headship over us. We are "transferred from the kingdom of darkness" (in Adam) to the "kingdom of light" (in Christ) by that life giving Spirit, Jesus.

Some groups believe this occurs at baptism, but the Bible shows that regeneration (being born-again) occurs whenever the Spirit desires and is not based on the application of an outward sign. (Acts 10:44-47)

 

[Lockheed]

We are born with the propensity to sin, or have the sin nature, we are not born sinners and condemned to hell at birth. Those 2 articles sum up my thoughts.

But the Bible states: "through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men".

Are you saying that babies don't need to hear the gospel and be saved?

 

[aReformedPatriot]

But the Bible states: "through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men".

Are you saying that babies don't need to hear the gospel and be saved?

Are you saying a young babe can understand and embrace the gospel message and be saved?

"through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men".

Your right it does, and I agree with that. The question of "when" is the issue. Since we are born with the propensity to sin all will fall short of the Glory of God, then that person will need to be presented with the gospel.

 

[Lockheed]

Are you saying a young babe can understand and embrace the gospel message and be saved?

Understanding the Gospel is a miracle. (1 Cor 2:14) Even grown men cannot undersand the Gospel as it is "foolishness" to them without God's work in them. Understanding and believing in the Gospel is something God produces in us as supernaturally. Thus it is quite possible for God to renew a person, yet in the womb, unto eternal life because it doesn't depend on man's natural faculties but is a gift of God. Even babies can be saved. (Luke 1:42-44)

"through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men".

Your right it does, and I agree with that. The question of "when" is the issue. Since we are born with the propensity to sin all will fall short of the Glory of God, then that person will need to be presented with the gospel.

Well the Bible simply says, "through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men", thus it happened in the fall. Romans 5 is replete with this language:

• “Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin” (v. 12).
• “By the one man’s offense many died” (v. 15).
• “Through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation” (v. 18).
• “By one man’s disobedience many were made sinners” (v. 19).

By Adam's transgression we're all made sinners, and through Adam's sin we're justly condemned, even if we don't sin in the likeness of Adam (Rom 5:14). If you are "in Adam" you die and are justly judged for your sins, but if one is "in Christ" they are a "new creation" and no longer slaves to sin.

We're not just born with a propensity to sin, we're born as slaves to sin. As R.C. Sproul writes: "We are sinners not because we sin. Rather, we sin because we are sinners. Thus David laments, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." (Psalm 51:5, NIV). [ http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/sproul/originalsin.html ]

 

[FreeinChrist]

Good Day, Freeinchrist

Hope you are well Sister as it has been a while. How can one belive in the results of original sin "sin Nature", and deny it's cause?


Peace to you,

Bill

Well, in a sense, I do believe in original sin, in that as result of Adam's sin, we are all born with a sin nature, that separates us from God. For that, Jesus shed His blood to create a new and living way to the throne of grace.
He was the propitiation.


I don't beleive it is something removed by water baptism.

And I don't believe that the sins we commit later in our lives have to be dealt with in a purgatory.

And I don't believe that it was required of Mary to have an immaculate conception so that Christ could become human through her.

So I have a belief that we inherit a sin nature, separated from
God, but some of the extensions of doctrine of original sin are cause for concern.

 

[Lockheed]

So I have a belief that we inherit a sin nature, separated from God, but some of the extensions of doctrine of original sin are cause for concern.

Well, keep in mind that the other church you mentioned who does believe those things also believes in the Trinity, the deity of Christ, etc... so in distancing ourselves from them, we needn't remove ourself from the truths but from the errors.

 

[BBAS 64]

We are born with the propensity to sin, or have the sin nature, we are not born sinners and condemned to hell at birth. Those 2 articles sum up my thoughts.

Good day, Lord's Envoy

Where does that Propensity come from, what is it's cause, by what means does it come?

I am reading the articles you have posted... Is this site a Baptist site?

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[aReformedPatriot]

Understanding the Gospel is a miracle. (1 Cor 2:14) Even grown men cannot undersand the Gospel as it is "foolishness" to them without God's work in them. Understanding and believing in the Gospel is something God produces in us as supernaturally. Thus it is quite possible for God to renew a person, yet in the womb, unto eternal life because it doesn't depend on man's natural faculties but is a gift of God. Even babies can be saved. (Luke 1:42-44)

The Luke passage does not support what you say but I agree babies are "saved" because they are not yet accountible. Anyone can understand the gospel message, there are athiests on here who can quote the salvation message better than some christians. It is the significance of that message that affects whether they embrace it as truth or "folly"/"foolishness", this is spiritually discerned.

Well the Bible simply says, "through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men", thus it happened in the fall. Romans 5 is replete with this language:

• “Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin” (v. 12).
• “By the one man’s offense many died” (v. 15).
• “Through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation” (v. 18).
• “By one man’s disobedience many were made sinners” (v. 19).

By Adam's transgression we're all made sinners, and through Adam's sin we're justly condemned, even if we don't sin in the likeness of Adam (Rom 5:14). If you are "in Adam" you die and are justly judged for your sins, but if one is "in Christ" they are a "new creation" and no longer slaves to sin.

We're not just born with a propensity to sin, we're born as slaves to sin. As R.C. Sproul writes: "We are sinners not because we sin. Rather, we sin because we are sinners. Thus David laments, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." (Psalm 51:5, NIV). [http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/sproul/originalsin.html]

You did not read my articles my boy, why should I read yours? Theres a difference between prose, which is referential, straightforward language that composes a narrative, and that of poetic language, which is commissive, emotional banter, and not always literal such as a psalm or a proverb. Sproul in my opinion chose a bad example. Read my articles and hear my response to this. It will save me the time of repeating it and allow me to finish my reading.



By the way, it is clear your preaching reformed doctrine and you should know that I do not subscribe to reformed theology. This will save you and I a lot of breath because I don't debate reformed doctrine with my B/A brethren which is where this thread is about to go.

 

[BBAS 64]

Well, in a sense, I do believe in original sin, in that as result of Adam's sin, we are all born with a sin nature, that separates us from God. For that, Jesus shed His blood to create a new and living way to the throne of grace.
He was the propitiation. .

I agree


.

I don't beleive it is something removed by water baptism..

.

And I don't believe that the sins we commit later in our lives have to be dealt with in a purgatory. .

If one was to belive in the Blood of Christ as truely effective in the forgiveness in that he obtained our forgiveness for real then purgatory would be seen as a useless crutch.

.

And I don't believe that it was required of Mary to have an immaculate conception so that Christ could become human through her. .

nor do I, this fallacy flies in the face of a complete understanding of orinigal sin

So I have a belief that we inherit a sin nature, separated from
God, but some of the extensions of doctrine of original sin are cause for concern.

It is because of that nature that we all sin.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day Lord's Envoy

From the link:



""For example, the Augsburg Confession of Faith (1530), Lutheranism’s creed, asserted that

“. . . all men, born according to nature, are born with sin, that is, without the fear of God, without confidence towards God and with concupiscence, and that this original disease or flaw is truly a sin, bringing condemnation and also eternal death to those who are not reborn through baptism and the Holy Spirit” (Article II).​

This, of course, explains the practice of infant baptism as advocated by numerous sects.""

The person who wrote this seems to have misunderstood the "through baptism and the Holy Spirit". he also seems to have a complete mis understanding of Luther, must send him some links.

I also see he has posted some scripture in one article, lets see what he assumes these verses say.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Matthan]

Original sin does not exist. See Ezekiel 18:20 for details.

No person is born contaminated with any kind of sin. Infants and small children are pure and sinless in the sight of God. Jesus tells us this is so in Matthew 18:10 with "Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven." I believe we would all agree that nothing unclean can enter Heaven, and yet the "angles" of infants and small children do always behold the face of God. That tells me they are sinless during the first two stages of their life, infanthood and small childhood.

But man does have a propencity for sin. We develop a liking for sin. Sinful things feel good to us, generally speaking. And, as we mature out of our childhood, each of us gravitates to that sinful nature. At what age does that happen? There is no set age. For some it might be during their first decade of life. However, I firmly believe virtually all humans have attained a sinful nature by the end of their second decade of life. By then they have developed the ability to distinguish between right and wrong, good and evil, or acceptable and unacceptable.

So, at some age, we all become sinners. That is our nature. And, althought it is not "inherrited" from Adam or any other person, it does appear to be "inherent" in our existence.

What about Baptism? Does Baptism "clense" our souls from all sin? Well, yes and no. It all depends on what is meant by "Baptism." For most people that term denotes getting wet in one of three forms. But what did Jesus tell us about becoming "born again", or "baptized in the Spirit"? He told us that, in order for us to be spiritual beings, we had to be born again of the Spirit. And also remember that John the Baptist announced loudly several times that there was one coming after him that would baptize people with the Holy Ghost. He was, of course, speaking of Jesus. And that is what Jesus meant, too.

The only baptism that matters to God is spiritual baptism by the Holy Spirit. All the water in the world, poured, sprinkled or used for dunking, cannot attain that "Spirit" baptism. Only heart-felt belief in Jesus will cause it to happen.
Matthan <J><

 

[aReformedPatriot]

Good Day Lord's Envoy

From the link:



""For example, the Augsburg Confession of Faith (1530), Lutheranism’s creed, asserted that

“. . . all men, born according to nature, are born with sin, that is, without the fear of God, without confidence towards God and with concupiscence, and that this original disease or flaw is truly a sin, bringing condemnation and also eternal death to those who are not reborn through baptism and the Holy Spirit” (Article II).​

This, of course, explains the practice of infant baptism as advocated by numerous sects.""

The person who wrote this seems to have misunderstood the "through baptism and the Holy Spirit". he also seems to have a complete mis understanding of Luther, must send him some links.

I also see he has posted some scripture in one article, lets see what he assumes these verses say.

Peace to u,

Bill

He would argue that baptism is required for salvation (which is why I said I dont agree with everything he says). He is not a paedobaptist though and would argue in favor of the age of accountibility which is something I would do as well.

Original sin does not exist. See Ezekiel 18:20 for details.

No person is born contaminated with any kind of sin. Infants and small children are pure and sinless in the sight of God. Jesus tells us this is so in Matthew 18:10 with "Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven." I believe we would all agree that nothing unclean can enter Heaven, and yet the "angles" of infants and small children do always behold the face of God. That tells me they are sinless during the first two stages of their life, infanthood and small childhood.

But man does have a propencity for sin. We develop a liking for sin. Sinful things feel good to us, generally speaking. And, as we mature out of our childhood, each of us gravitates to that sinful nature. At what age does that happen? There is no set age. For some it might be during their first decade of life. However, I firmly believe virtually all humans have attained a sinful nature by the end of their second decade of life. By then they have developed the ability to distinguish between right and wrong, good and evil, or acceptable and unacceptable.

So, at some age, we all become sinners. That is our nature. And, althought it is not "inherrited" from Adam or any other person, it does appear to be "inherent" in our existence.

What about Baptism? Does Baptism "clense" our souls from all sin? Well, yes and no. It all depends on what is meant by "Baptism." For most people that term denotes getting wet in one of three forms. But what did Jesus tell us about becoming "born again", or "baptized in the Spirit"? He told us that, in order for us to be spiritual beings, we had to be born again of the Spirit. And also remember that John the Baptist announced loudly several times that there was one coming after him that would baptize people with the Holy Ghost. He was, of course, speaking of Jesus. And that is what Jesus meant, too.

The only baptism that matters to God is spiritual baptism by the Holy Spirit. All the water in the world, poured, sprinkled or used for dunking, cannot attain that "Spirit" baptism. Only heart-felt belief in Jesus will cause it to happen.
Matthan <J><

Amen.

 

[Lockheed]

The Luke passage does not support what you say but I agree babies are "saved" because they are not yet accountible. Anyone can understand the gospel message, there are athiests on here who can quote the salvation message better than some christians. It is the significance of that message that affects whether they embrace it as truth or "folly"/"foolishness", this is spiritually discerned.

No, the Bible states that spiritual things are spiritually discerned and natural man cannot undestand them.

You did not read my articles my boy, why should I read yours?

Your articles belong to the full Pelagian 'church of Christ' which believes one must be baptized to be saved. They are considered a cult by most apologists.

The fact that atheists can 'understand' the 'gospel message' and yet no believe simply adds to my position that unless one's heart is changed they cannot and will not believe the Gospel.

Theres a difference between prose, which is referential, straightforward language that composes a narrative, and that of poetic language, which is commissive, emotional banter, and not always literal such as a psalm or a proverb. Sproul in my opinion chose a bad example. Read my articles and hear my response to this. It will save me the time of repeating it and allow me to finish my reading.

Do you attend a 'Church of Christ'?

By the way, it is clear your preaching reformed doctrine and you should know that I do not subscribe to reformed theology. This will save you and I a lot of breath because I don't debate reformed doctrine with my B/A brethren which is where this thread is about to go.

I am a Reformed Baptist, hense I believe the doctrines of grace to be true. Just because you don't doesn't mean you don't have to defend your positions.

 

[aReformedPatriot]

No, the Bible states that spiritual things are spiritually discerned and natural man cannot undestand them.


The fact that atheists can 'understand' the 'gospel message' and yet no believe simply adds to my position that unless one's heart is changed they cannot and will not believe the Gospel.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Your articles belong to the full Pelagian 'church of Christ' which believes one must be baptized to be saved. They are considered a cult by most apologists.

Which CoC there are a few bearing that title. For the most part all i've seen on that site is pretty orthodox except for baptismal regeneration. Guess you should go through it and nit pick it.

Do you attend a 'Church of Christ'?

Quite the opposite I attend a southern baptist church and goto the heavily reformed Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

I am a Reformed Baptist, hense I believe the doctrines of grace to be true. Just because you don't doesn't mean you don't have to defend your positions.

I dont see the need to here at this point. I am still investigating all of its claims so I choose not to debate it here. If one wants to be calvinist, fine, if one wants to be arminian fine. I see God as sovriegn and in control. He is the one who saves not Me. I believe I have the ability to become an apostate should I choose though I cannot imagine ever doing so.