Original and Ancestral Sin

[Discussdocs]

Hello all. I wanted to start this thread to generate
some helpful discussion on the topic of original/
ancestral sin. In the West original sin is typiclly
associated with inherited guilt. That is that all of
humanity that is born is given the guilt of Adam and
therefore worthy of the final judgment simply for
being born. However in the East the idea of ancestral
sin is more along the lines of each individual
receiving death as Adam's consequence and not the
final judgment.

I side more with the East on this issue in that I
think that the fall gave humanity death rather than
a "one way ticket to hell". If the older English
understanding of the word hell, which is death, was meant then
I would sign up for this statement. lol.

Are there others in this group that would like to
discuss this and the implications on other points
of theology? For example this may affect how one
views the reason for Christ's death for us. It also
may affect your view on man's response to the Christ's
atonement.

 

[Discussdocs]

I think when we look at passages like Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15 we see Paul making mentioning of his view of what we call original sin or ancestral sin. He makes mention of death coming through Adam and then to all men. So I think the idea that of humanity is worthy of the final judgment for simply being born is not what is at view. I think the implications of this view lead us to understand that people's individual deeds warrant God's judgment and not simply being born.

 

[Discussdocs]

Another implication I would like to raise with the view of ancestral sin is how death came to be. It seems to me to be clear that Adam and his wife were at fault in bringing sin in. The church has had different ideas on who actually brought about the death however. For me it would seem that God brought death to humanity as a punishment for sin. However there are many who hold the view that God wasn't involved in the process of giving mankind death. Obviously it wasn't God's original plan to have death for humanity, but on account of their disobedience I see it as punishment. Other traditions would not. Would anyone like to discuss how death passed on to mankind, if it was God, incorporeal sin, the devil, someone else?

 

[~Anastasia~]

You might get more responses elsewhere, since this is just an intro forum. The place you post would do much to determine what kind of flavor the discussion would have.

I will offer one more pov - we would say that death was the consequence of sin, yes. But that doesn't necessarily mean punishment. God is the very Source of life. Mankind is not inherently immortal, though God did not create us to die. We were created to remain in fellowship with Him though (had we kept to the ideal). But by separating ourselves from communion with God through the fall, man became subject to death, no longer being directly connected to the Source of life (God).

Death is an enemy Christ defeated by God Himself dying in the flesh - death could not hold Him and so was destroyed. But the current condition remains until the end of the age. So all men die. Not because of punishment by God, but because if our imperfect condition. No guilt is necessary. It is more like a sickness we are born with.

Good topic. As I said, depending where you discuss, you will get very different responses.

(And I am not interested in arguing - just a general announcement to everyone who might disagree with what I've posted.)



God be with us all.

 

[Discussdocs]

Yes I am aware I posted in the wrong thread! Thank you for your response and I have already posted it in the haramatology thread. Any way I can delete this thread as I can't out how to do it. I would like to see you comment on the thread!

Original and Ancestral Sin

 

[mnorian]

Mod hat on

this thread has been moved from
Introduce Yourself
to
General theology
for a better fit and responses.
Mod hat off.
​

 

[bling]

Hello all. I wanted to start this thread to generate
some helpful discussion on the topic of original/
ancestral sin. In the West original sin is typiclly
associated with inherited guilt. That is that all of
humanity that is born is given the guilt of Adam and
therefore worthy of the final judgment simply for
being born. However in the East the idea of ancestral
sin is more along the lines of each individual
receiving death as Adam's consequence and not the
final judgment.

I side more with the East on this issue in that I
think that the fall gave humanity death rather than
a "one way ticket to hell". If the older English
understanding of the word hell, which is death, was meant then
I would sign up for this statement. lol.

Are there others in this group that would like to
discuss this and the implications on other points
of theology? For example this may affect how one
views the reason for Christ's death for us. It also
may affect your view on man's response to the Christ's
atonement.

Welcome to the Christian Forum and thank you for your questions and there are actually lots of questions here.

There is a ton of stuff we can learn from the short story about Adam and Eve;

I will begin with death:

Is death bad in and of itself?

The fact we will die (if Christ does not come back first) does help at least some willing individuals in the fulfillment of their earthly objective quickly instead of putting it off.

What I see with our messed-up world today and from scripture, is God doing and allowing everything to help willing humans fulfill their earthly objective and that “everything” includes: satan roaming the earth, Christ going to the cross, tragedies of all kinds, death, hell and even sin.

Let me ask you this: Would you prefer to be in a wonderful place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on you remaining obedient to God’s commands (the Garden) or in a lousy place for a short time where your just acceptance of God’s charity, resulted in your eternal close relationship with God (where you are now)?

One of the things we and Adam and Eve learned from the Garden is how lousy a place it is for humans to fulfill their earthly objective.

We can start there and not go to far into it.

 

[Discussdocs]

Welcome to the Christian Forum and thank you for your questions and there are actually lots of questions here.

There is a ton of stuff we can learn from the short story about Adam and Eve;

I will begin with death:

Is death bad in and of itself?

The fact we will die (if Christ does not come back first) does help at least some willing individuals in the fulfillment of their earthly objective quickly instead of putting it off.

What I see with our messed-up world today and from scripture, is God doing and allowing everything to help willing humans fulfill their earthly objective and that “everything” includes: satan roaming the earth, Christ going to the cross, tragedies of all kinds, death, hell and even sin.

Let me ask you this: Would you prefer to be in a wonderful place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on you remaining obedient to God’s commands (the Garden) or in a lousy place for a short time where your just acceptance of God’s charity, resulted in your eternal close relationship with God (where you are now)?

One of the things we and Adam and Eve learned from the Garden is how lousy a place it is for humans to fulfill their earthly objective.


We can start there and not go to far into it.

Is this some kind of copy pasta?

 

[Discussdocs]

Mod hat on

this thread has been moved from
Introduce Yourself
to
General theology
for a better fit and responses.
Mod hat off.
​

Thank you for this!

 

[fhansen]

Hello all. I wanted to start this thread to generate
some helpful discussion on the topic of original/
ancestral sin. In the West original sin is typiclly
associated with inherited guilt. That is that all of
humanity that is born is given the guilt of Adam and
therefore worthy of the final judgment simply for
being born. However in the East the idea of ancestral
sin is more along the lines of each individual
receiving death as Adam's consequence and not the
final judgment.

I side more with the East on this issue in that I
think that the fall gave humanity death rather than
a "one way ticket to hell". If the older English
understanding of the word hell, which is death, was meant then
I would sign up for this statement. lol.

Are there others in this group that would like to
discuss this and the implications on other points
of theology? For example this may affect how one
views the reason for Christ's death for us. It also
may affect your view on man's response to the Christ's
atonement.

The classic definition in the west is that Adam's descendants are "guilty" only in an analogical sense; they inherit a state of being, which is not an actual personal fault in them. The chief characteristic of this state is spiritual separation from God, aka "the death of the soul". This is "unnatural" for man, a disorder, a deprivation, as he was made for communion with God, 'apart from whom we can do nothing', to paraphrase John 15:5.

Without that relationship man is lost, not knowing where he came from, if anywhere, why he's here, if for any reason, and where he's going afterwards, if anywhere. He's cut off in some manner not only from God but even from his fellow man, the rest of creation, and even from himself. Something is missing and we try to fill it with possessions, experiences, pleasure, wealth, and self-glorification driven by pride. But it's not enough. And since the Fall God has been patiently working with and molding and educating man to steer him towards a place where he'll begin to recognize that it's not enough, that something's horribly missing, and be receptive of it, of the light when it's finally presented to him.

So Jesus came when the time was ripe to show us that light, to reveal God to an extent that He'd never been revealed before, to show us His true face so we may know Him and so like Prodigals turn back to the Father in our recognized need, and begin to believe in, hope in, and ultimately love Him. Jesus came to restore "the knowledge of God" that was lost for humanity at the Fall, where man was plummeted into ignorance and darkness, a darkness that we may continue to prefer until and unless we become jaded by the world's pitiful offerings and the evil and sin that prevail when God's not our God.

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. John 17:3

 

[bling]

Is this some kind of copy pasta?

These are all my original ideas, but I write everything in word first and will reuse my stuff.

 

[Discussdocs]

The classic definition in the west is that Adam's descendants are "guilty" only in an analogical sense; they inherit a state of being, which is not an actual personal fault in them. The chief characteristic of this state is spiritual separation from God, aka "the death of the soul". This is "unnatural" for man, a disorder, a deprivation, as he was made for communion with God, 'apart from whom we can do nothing', to paraphrase John 15:5.

Without that relationship man is lost, not knowing where he came from, if anywhere, why he's here, if for any reason, and where he's going afterwards, if anywhere. He's cut off in some manner not only from God but even from his fellow man, the rest of creation, and even from himself. Something is missing and we try to fill it with possessions, experiences, pleasure, wealth, and self-glorification driven by pride. But it's not enough. And since the Fall God has been patiently working with and molding and educating man to steer him towards a place where he'll begin to recognize that it's not enough, that something's horribly missing, and be receptive of it, of the light when it's finally presented to him.

So Jesus came when the time was ripe to show us that light, to reveal God to an extent that He'd never been revealed before, to show us His true face so we may know Him and so like Prodigals turn back to the Father in our recognized need, and begin to believe in, hope in, and ultimately love Him. Jesus came to restore "the knowledge of God" that was lost for humanity at the Fall, where man was plummeted into ignorance and darkness, a darkness that we may continue to prefer until and unless we become jaded by the world's pitiful offerings and the evil and sin that prevail when God's not our God.

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. John 17:3

But isn't the lack of spiritual life lead people to Hell in the west?

 

[fhansen]

But isn't the lack of spiritual life lead people to Hell in the west?

Well, hell is a possibility in both the Eastern and Western beliefs. And complete spiritual death or separation from God is basically what hell is, so we taste or experience that death in ourselves and in our lives here in some ways daily so that we can decide whether or not we like it once we hear the good news, about something much better.

The catechism teaches that Adam preferred himself to God with his act of disobedience. We have to sort of decide within ourselves whether or not Adam was right, whether we need God or not as well. We're sort of like prodigals who've tasted of life in the pigsty so to speak, away from the father. And we need to gain some idea about what an incredible banquet He wants to throw for us when we return.