durangodawood

Dis Member
Aug 28, 2007
23,591
15,751
Colorado
✟433,025.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
yes. again: like any regular creature. lets say it even has DNA.
So it has cells and a metabolism and takes in matter and energy from its environment to power its various processes and to reproduce? Does the watch eat? Photosynthesize?

Sounds like maybe a watch-plant sort of thing?

I would say it was designed in some lab because its form is totally unprecedented in nature AND it completely imitates the form of a known human creation.

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure that humans dont yet have the knowledge to create such a thing. So maybe aliens made it?
 
Upvote 0

xianghua

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2017
5,215
555
43
tel aviv
✟111,555.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Single
So it has cells and a metabolism and takes in matter and energy from its environment to power its various processes and to reproduce? Does the watch eat? Photosynthesize?

Sounds like maybe a watch-plant sort of thing?

I would say it was designed in some lab because its form is totally unprecedented in nature AND it completely imitates the form of a known human creation.

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure that humans dont yet have the knowledge to create such a thing. So maybe aliens made it?
thanks. so why a creature makes any different?
 
Upvote 0

durangodawood

Dis Member
Aug 28, 2007
23,591
15,751
Colorado
✟433,025.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
thanks. so why a creature makes any different?
What makes a natural animal different from some lab-created reproducing wristwatch?

I can think of a lot of things.

But the main one is that the wristwatch was invented by humans and built in a lab, while the animal evolved in accordance with demands of the natural environment.
 
Upvote 0

xianghua

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2017
5,215
555
43
tel aviv
✟111,555.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Single
What makes a natural animal different from some lab-created reproducing wristwatch?

I can think of a lot of things.

But the main one is that the wristwatch was invented by humans and built in a lab, while the animal evolved in accordance with demands of the natural environment.

but the problem is that according to evolution we will need to conclude that this watch also evolved. since its has living traits.
 
Upvote 0

durangodawood

Dis Member
Aug 28, 2007
23,591
15,751
Colorado
✟433,025.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
but the problem is that according to evolution we will need to conclude that this watch also evolved. since its has living traits.
No we dont.

Nothing about evolution says we cannot design a living creature in a lab.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: pitabread
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,262
8,057
✟326,744.00
Faith
Atheist
... We've become pretty good at figuring out how matter is organized and how it acts, but at the end of the day, we don't really know what it is. That's more of an ontological question.
I don't see that it's a question that can ultimately have a meaningful answer. We can only describe and understand what we discover about the most fundamental elements of reality in terms of what we already know; and what we already know is dependent on (e.g. emergent from) those fundamental elements...
 
Upvote 0

Silmarien

Existentialist
Feb 24, 2017
4,337
5,254
38
New York
✟215,724.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I don't see that it's a question that can ultimately have a meaningful answer. We can only describe and understand what we discover about the most fundamental elements of reality in terms of what we already know; and what we already know is dependent on (e.g. emergent from) those fundamental elements...

Yep, but we do need to keep in mind everything that we actually do know. This is one of the reasons why I reject materialism in favor of something like panpsychism. And whine about it a lot. Because treating life like a particularly complex form of non-life works up until our weird new non-life becomes aware of the world around it. Then you've got an unbridgeable gulf unless you change the way you think about non-life altogether.

Eliminativism set aside, we do know that consciousness at some point emerges, so it seems only logical to me that there must be something about the building blocks of matter that would make subjective rather than merely objective existence possible at all. (Assuming, of course, that the natural world is exhausted by what is material--I'm cautiously silent on that particular issue, though I'd probably side with the idealists before the substance dualists.)

Being a non-naturalist, I've got tons of options for dealing with this, from Platonism to Hegelianism, and from Abrahamic materialism to Vedanta idealism. But from a naturalistic perspective, it seems like you'd need to switch over to a more integrated view of reality to actually account for everything that we know exists.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,262
8,057
✟326,744.00
Faith
Atheist
... we do need to keep in mind everything that we actually do know. This is one of the reasons why I reject materialism in favor of something like panpsychism.
Interesting - it seems to me that what we know indicates materialism rather than panpsychism...

Because treating life like a particularly complex form of non-life works up until our weird new non-life becomes aware of the world around it. Then you've got an unbridgeable gulf unless you change the way you think about non-life altogether.
Depends what you mean by 'aware' - there's a sense in which a thermostat is 'aware' of temperature (i.e. it responds to changes in temperature). But I presume you mean conscious awareness.

... we do know that consciousness at some point emerges, so it seems only logical to me that there must be something about the building blocks of matter that would make subjective rather than merely objective existence possible at all.
I think a major part of the difficulty people have with consciousness is the intuitive feeling that the conscious mind is somehow something extra; that it "drives the body around like a soccer mom driving an SUV", as Sean Carroll memorably said. The sense that the physical body just another object and one's conscious mind is something else that has subjective experience is hard to shake; but consciousness is subjective experience, an intermittent process running in the brain of a physical body, much as digestion is a process running in the gut of a physical body.

Having conscious awareness is what it is like (in the Nagelian sense) to be a particular creature with a brain that is running those processes. The subjectivity of subjective experience is the fact that only your brain in your body runs and has access to those processes. Each of us is isolated in our subjectivity, only able to communicate our subjective experience via metaphor - via comparisons with objective experiences in the world, hoping that the other's subjective experience is similar - because the mind is what the brain does, and each brain is unique.

All the neurological evidence I'm aware of (!) points to this interpretation, and all the physics I'm aware of indicates there is no other plausible mechanism [details available on request].

If you ask why it is that there is 'something that it is like' to be a creature with a brain running certain processes, I can only say that there are plenty of plausible models (e.g. Doug Hofstadter's book 'I Am A Strange Loop' highlights a basic principle), but I don't see how there can be an objective explanation for subjective experience beyond 'that is what happens when these objective criteria are met'. It presumably evolved because it was advantageous - it correlates with niches requiring flexible behaviour, planning and foresight, and involving complex social interaction.

... from a naturalistic perspective, it seems like you'd need to switch over to a more integrated view of reality to actually account for everything that we know exists.
More integrated how? Can you explain?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

durangodawood

Dis Member
Aug 28, 2007
23,591
15,751
Colorado
✟433,025.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
so let me ask you this: do you think that a robot that is very similar to a human is evidence for design?
Yes. If some important aspect of it has no precedence in nature, then I would be open to the idea it was designed.
 
Upvote 0

Obliquinaut

Сделайте Америку прекрасной
Jun 30, 2017
2,091
1,635
60
Washington
✟35,334.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Was this item made by a skilled craftsman or did it occur naturally?

Vunn4Lh.jpg
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
so let me ask you this: do you think that a robot that is very similar to a human is evidence for design?
Perhaps, but not because it is very similar to a human. Much as Durangowood said, it would have to show evidence of being manufactured (refined materials, mold and tooling marks, that kind of thing) before one would begin to consider it designed.

Remember: functional similarity to an object known to be designed is not, in itself, evidence of design.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

xianghua

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2017
5,215
555
43
tel aviv
✟111,555.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Single
Yes. If some important aspect of it has no precedence in nature, then I would be open to the idea it was designed.

ok. so what about a robot that is very similar to human, but also has a self replicating system like in living thing?
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
ok. so what about a robot that is very similar to human, but also has a self replicating system like in living thing?
Design cannot be concluded on the basis of the evidence you are presenting.
 
Upvote 0

durangodawood

Dis Member
Aug 28, 2007
23,591
15,751
Colorado
✟433,025.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
ok. so what about a robot that is very similar to human, but also has a self replicating system like in living thing?
Well, so far a robot is by definition a manufactured object.

So I say this robot is designed, though many aspects of it were probably copied from nature.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
just perhaps?
Just perhaps. You would have to let us examine the object carefully, maybe even take it apart or perform chemical analysis of the materials. Then, if we found evidence of human manufacture we might be able to conclude design.
 
Upvote 0