Order without Intelligence

[Psudopod]

They don't.
​

In fact they do.

These would be the same Eqytian, Chinese etc civilisations that completely missed the great global flood that killed off everyone except 8 people?

 

[sandwiches]

Yes, it is finely tuned. The Bible makes no mention of life outside of Earth and we have no evidence there is life outside of Earth. The Creation could be geocentric. Regardless of whether there is life outside of the earth, even the constants in the vacuum need to be just right for the non-living universe to exist.

Even Earth is extremely hostile to human life. Very little land, even less actually habitable land, very little potable water, viruses, bacteria, prions, hostile animals, earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, mudslides, droughts, tsunamis, volcanoes, meteors, solar radiation, extreme temperatures, etc. These all make for a very finely-tuned planet, right? JUST right for humans. What's amazing is the fact that we've managed to survive DESPITE the fact that Earth and the universe are so generally hostile to life and, specifically, to human life.

Also, whatever 'constants' you're talking about, if they had been different, this would've preclude the universe from existing. It simply would've been a different universe is all.

 

[Psudopod]

Saying the universe is fine tuned for life is like saying the hole is the right shape for the puddle. Of course this universe supports life - we wouldn't be here to observe it if it wasn't.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

These would be the same Eqytian, Chinese etc civilisations that completely missed the great global flood that killed off everyone except 8 people?

I mean the same Egyptians and Chinese that confirm the historical fact of the global flood.

"O Solon, Solon, you Hellenes are never anything but children, and there is not an old man among you. ... in mind you are all young; there is no old opinion handed down among you by ancient tradition, nor any science which is hoary with age. And I will tell you why. There have been, and will be again, many destructions of mankind arising out of many causes; the greatest have been brought about by the agencies of fire and water, and other lesser ones by innumerable other causes. There is a story, which even you have preserved, that once upon a time Paethon [Venus], the son of Helios, having yoked the steeds in his father's chariot, because he was not able to drive them in the path of his father, burnt up all that was upon the earth, and was himself destroyed by a thunderbolt. Now this has the form of a myth, but really signifies a declination of the bodies moving in the heavens around the earth, and a great conflagration of things upon the earth, which recurs after long intervals; at such times those who live upon the mountains and in dry and lofty places are more liable to destruction than those who dwell by rivers or on the seashore. And from this calamity the Nile, who is our never-failing saviour, delivers and preserves us. When, on the other hand, the gods purge the earth with a deluge of water, the survivors in your country are herdsmen and shepherds who dwell on the mountains, but those who, like you, live in cities are carried by the rivers into the sea. Whereas in this land, neither then nor at any other time, does the water come down from above on the fields, having always a tendency to come up from below; for which reason the traditions preserved here are the most ancient. The fact is, that wherever the extremity of winter frost or of summer does not prevent, mankind exist, sometimes in greater, sometimes in lesser numbers. And whatever happened either in your country or in ours, or in any other region of which we are informed-if there were any actions noble or great or in any other way remarkable, they have all been written down by us of old, and are preserved in our temples. Whereas just when you and other nations are beginning to be provided with letters and the other requisites of civilized life, after the usual interval, the stream from heaven, like a pestilence, comes pouring down, and leaves only those of you who are destitute of letters and education; and so you have to begin all over again like children, and know nothing of what happened in ancient times, either among us or among yourselves. As for those genealogies of yours which you just now recounted to us, Solon, they are no better than the tales of children. In the first place you remember a single deluge only, but there were many previous ones; in the next place, you do not know that there formerly dwelt in your land the fairest and noblest race of men which ever lived, and that you and your whole city are descended from a small seed or remnant of them which survived. And this was unknown to you, because, for many generations, the survivors of that destruction died, leaving no written word. For there was a time, Solon, before the great deluge of all, when the city which now is Athens was first in war and in every way the best governed of all cities, is said to have performed the noblest deeds and to have had the fairest constitution of any of which tradition tells, under the face of heaven. " -- Sonchis of Sais, Egyptian priest, ~594 B.C.

"The first human king of Egypt, they said, was Min. In his time all of Egypt except the Thebaic district was a marsh: all the country that we now see was then covered by water...." -- Herodotus, historian, Book II, ~440-420 B.C.

"And in the time of Crotopus occurred the burning of Phaethon, and the deluges of Deucalion." -- Clement of Alexandria, priest, Stromata, 2nd century

"In the lifetime of [Emperor] Yao the sun did not set for ten full days and the entire land was flooded." -- Johannes Hübner, evangelist, 1729

"According to the papyrus found in the monastery of Abu Hormeis, (translated into Arabic 225 AH), the deluge was to take place when the heart of the Lion entered into the first minute of the Crab's head, at the declining of the star; which is obviously an astronomical observation relating to the inundation of the Nile. It is rendered backwards as if applied to the ending of a cycle in precession." -- Gerald Massey, egyptologist, 1881

 

[Psudopod]

I mean the same Egyptians and Chinese that confirm the historical fact of the global flood.

"O Solon, Solon, you Hellenes are never anything but children, and there is not an old man among you. ... in mind you are all young; there is no old opinion handed down among you by ancient tradition, nor any science which is hoary with age. And I will tell you why. There have been, and will be again, many destructions of mankind arising out of many causes; the greatest have been brought about by the agencies of fire and water, and other lesser ones by innumerable other causes. There is a story, which even you have preserved, that once upon a time Paethon [Venus], the son of Helios, having yoked the steeds in his father's chariot, because he was not able to drive them in the path of his father, burnt up all that was upon the earth, and was himself destroyed by a thunderbolt. Now this has the form of a myth, but really signifies a declination of the bodies moving in the heavens around the earth, and a great conflagration of things upon the earth, which recurs after long intervals; at such times those who live upon the mountains and in dry and lofty places are more liable to destruction than those who dwell by rivers or on the seashore. And from this calamity the Nile, who is our never-failing saviour, delivers and preserves us. When, on the other hand, the gods purge the earth with a deluge of water, the survivors in your country are herdsmen and shepherds who dwell on the mountains, but those who, like you, live in cities are carried by the rivers into the sea. Whereas in this land, neither then nor at any other time, does the water come down from above on the fields, having always a tendency to come up from below; for which reason the traditions preserved here are the most ancient. The fact is, that wherever the extremity of winter frost or of summer does not prevent, mankind exist, sometimes in greater, sometimes in lesser numbers. And whatever happened either in your country or in ours, or in any other region of which we are informed-if there were any actions noble or great or in any other way remarkable, they have all been written down by us of old, and are preserved in our temples. Whereas just when you and other nations are beginning to be provided with letters and the other requisites of civilized life, after the usual interval, the stream from heaven, like a pestilence, comes pouring down, and leaves only those of you who are destitute of letters and education; and so you have to begin all over again like children, and know nothing of what happened in ancient times, either among us or among yourselves. As for those genealogies of yours which you just now recounted to us, Solon, they are no better than the tales of children. In the first place you remember a single deluge only, but there were many previous ones; in the next place, you do not know that there formerly dwelt in your land the fairest and noblest race of men which ever lived, and that you and your whole city are descended from a small seed or remnant of them which survived. And this was unknown to you, because, for many generations, the survivors of that destruction died, leaving no written word. For there was a time, Solon, before the great deluge of all, when the city which now is Athens was first in war and in every way the best governed of all cities, is said to have performed the noblest deeds and to have had the fairest constitution of any of which tradition tells, under the face of heaven. " -- Sonchis of Sais, Egyptian priest, ~594 B.C.

"The first human king of Egypt, they said, was Min. In his time all of Egypt except the Thebaic district was a marsh: all the country that we now see was then covered by water...." -- Herodotus, historian, Book II, ~440-420 B.C.

"And in the time of Crotopus occurred the burning of Phaethon, and the deluges of Deucalion." -- Clement of Alexandria, priest, Stromata, 2nd century

"In the lifetime of [Emperor] Yao the sun did not set for ten full days and the entire land was flooded." -- Johannes Hübner, evangelist, 1729

"According to the papyrus found in the monastery of Abu Hormeis, (translated into Arabic 225 AH), the deluge was to take place when the heart of the Lion entered into the first minute of the Crab's head, at the declining of the star; which is obviously an astronomical observation relating to the inundation of the Nile. It is rendered backwards as if applied to the ending of a cycle in precession." -- Gerald Massey, egyptologist, 1881

The Eqyptian and Chinese civilisations continued without pause during the supposed period of the global flood and after it. If all your population is wiped out, civiliation cannot continue.

The fact that they have stories mentioning flooding is hardly surprising, afterall the Egyptian civilisation depended on the annual flooding of the Nile. You need to stop taking quotes out of context of reality - it doesn't matter that any culture mentions flooding, even if it claims it was global. No civilation can continue undisterbed while a global flood is in place, there fore if there are some that did, no global flood took place.

 

[AV1611VET]

The Eqyptian and Chinese civilisations continued without pause during the supposed period of the global flood and after it.

I don't think so; in light of the fact that, according to the Bible, the Egyptians came from Noah's grandson, and the Chinese came from his great-grandson.

 

[sandwiches]

I don't think so; in light of the fact that, according to the Bible, the Egyptians came from Noah's grandson, and the Chinese came from his great-grandson.

Physical evidence trumps books. ALWAYS.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

Physical evidence trumps books. ALWAYS.

We have books and physical evidence proving the global flood.

You have no books or physical evidence.

 

[Psudopod]

I don't think so; in light of the fact that, according to the Bible, the Egyptians came from Noah's grandson, and the Chinese came from his great-grandson.

Both cultures pre-exist the period Noah was supposed to live in. This would be around the middle period of ancient Eqyptian civiliation.

 

[AV1611VET]

Physical evidence trumps books. ALWAYS.

You don't have physical evidence though --- just software.

 

[AV1611VET]

You have no books or physical evidence.

They might have writings --- writings from people who didn't tell time like we tell time today.

I call that "software" --- unreliable software.

 

[AV1611VET]

Both cultures pre-exist the period Noah was supposed to live in. This would be around the middle period of ancient Eqyptian civiliation.

Let's go through this again.

I don't think so, in view of the fact that Egypt came from Noah's grandson (Mizraim), and the Chinese came from Noah's great-grandson (the Sinite).

Are you familiar with what we call the Table of Nations (Genesis 10)?

 

[sandwiches]

You don't have physical evidence though --- just software.

... and ruins, writings, clothing, statuettes, burial sites, religious artifacts, pottery, paintings, written and oral histories, bones, tools, instruments, et cetera. Nice try though.

 

[sandwiches]

Let's go through this again.

I don't think so, in view of the fact that Egypt came from Noah's grandson (Mizraim), and the Chinese came from Noah's great-grandson (the Sinites).

Are you familiar with what we call the Table of Nations (Genesis 10)?

Mere assumptions not explicitly stated from unverifiable claims in a book.

 

[AV1611VET]

... and ruins, writings, clothing, statuettes, burial sites, religious artifacts, pottery, paintings, written and oral histories, bones, tools, instruments, et cetera. Nice try though.

And all those tell you they predated Noah?

What? You found something 6000 years old labeled 'Made in China'?

 

[sandwiches]

And all those tell you they predated Noah?

What? You found something 6000 years old labeled 'Made in China'?

Better yet. We found a bunch of somethings over 6,000 years old IN China.

 

[AV1611VET]

Mere assumptions not explicitly stated from unverifiable claims in a book.

I read this sentence three times, and I still don't understand it.

Are you familiar with the Table of Nations or aren't you?

I have a suspicion you're hearing this for the first time and don't know what it is you're rebutting.

 

[AV1611VET]

Better yet. We found a bunch of somethings over 6,000 years old IN China.

Good --- then it gets down to the age of something (as opposed to something dated), and that, of course, falls back on God embedding age into His creation.

How old is the metal in my car?

 

[sandwiches]

I read this sentence three times, and I still don't understand it.

Are you familiar with the Table of Nations, or aren't you?

I have a suspicion you're hearing this for the first time and don't know what it is you're rebutting.

It was a bit confusing, I admit. So, let me rephrase it:
You are making an assumption without it being explicitly written in the Bible, which itself contains unverified claims.

 

[AV1611VET]

It was a bit confusing, I admit. So, let me rephrase it:
You are making an assumption without it being explicitly written in the Bible, which itself contains unverified claims.

I'll admit that the Bible only mentions Mizraim and does not make the Mizraim = Egypt connection.

Wikipedia does though, and so my Boolean Standards apply.

And besides --- long before Wikipedia, there's this thing called basic doctrine.